Canter? No, GALLOP.

[Nasicus]

Just after some ideas on how I can slow my 14hh Heavy Cob down.
We're happy hackers, and have miles of forestry to explore since moving, so plenty of opportunities for a nice canter. However, we do not get nice canters, we get strong, tanky gallops! She'll go from trot to gallop and whilst we're not completely out of control, it does take a fair bit of hauling and distance to get her to slow down back to trot/walk. I plan for this, obviously, but I'd much rather be able to pop into canter and then go up a gear from there if I want than go straight into I AM SEABISCUIT HEAR ME ROAR!
She will pull her head forward and down as we go, I wouldn't say she's grabbing the bit. However it's not a war I can win by my own strength alone.

She's ridden in a mullen mouth pelham (with tongue relief) with roundings, I'm wondering if it's worth changing to two reins, a jointed pelham or perhaps a swales pelham with two reins so I can ask her to stop with the curb/leverage without the poll pressure encouraging the head down? And then just remain on the snaffle rein for the rest of the ride.

We've made great progress in getting her to slow down and relax in general since I got her in November, she came with a rather hard mouth and the idea that she had to trot as speed everywhere to the point where a pelham was the only bit I could use to safely ride her, anything less might as well have not been there. She can still be jigjoggy at times, but generally the only speed/control issue we have now is going faster than trot. We previously were able to drop down to a Slotted Kimblewick, but went back into the pelham when we moved as the woods were entirely very exciting at first.

At the end of the day, having a little zoom isn't a requirement, we just tootle around the woods and have a good time, but it would be nice to have the option to do so and to do so in a slightly more controlled manner, be it with a different bitting setup, through exercises or through other means.

 

[poiuytrewq]

What happens if you go into canter on a circle?

 

[Nasicus]

What happens if you go into canter on a circle?

Don't know unfortunately, haven't come across an area suitable to try it and don't have access to a school or suitable field.

 

[Abacus]

Is her trot under control before you ask for canter? My horse is keen in canter when hacking - not gallop but wants to go fast. I never let him canter until the trot is steady and soft, and then if he goes into canter too fast I make him trot again immediately. In the canter I sit up and use my seat to encourage him to stay steady, with half halts to remind him if he speeds up a little. It's a learning process and he's getting there, he came from a teenager who I think let him do everything faster than I would like. I tried stronger bits (nothing major) but they didn't really make any difference, it's just a learned behaviour. But I never let him go faster than I want, I think every time you allow that behaviour you reinforce it as being ok. I agree tha tif you can find a circle to work on while you are out riding you could control the canter better.

 

[HorseMaid]

I feel your pain! I spend a lot of time schooling, leg yielding and doing lots of transitions on hacks just to get my mare to listen to me a bit better, as she likes to do everything at warp speed. I also mix it up a bit and try not to always canter in the same place etc.

 

[JumpTheMoon1]

Get back to basics and do some groundwork on the lunge - controlled canter - good behaved canter and see if she behaves better when ridden .

 

[Leandy]

Well its about training, balance and not letting them anticipate by not cantering/galloping in the same place all the time.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I would do groundwork to get her slowing off of your voice rather than off of the reins. You will never win a strength battle against a horse, no matter how 'strong' the bit is. I can get my horse to stop off of my voice command alone at all speeds. It took a while to train but was worth the effort, especially for 'emergency' situations where I have to act fast out on hacks. Good luck, I'm sure you will get there.

 

[Annagain]

While I'd prefer to go down the schooling route, I understand it's not always possible so I think in your case I'd try a bit with more of a lifting action like a gag of some sort. My old boy was similar (polite as anything in the school in a snaffle but in an exciting situation he was head down and go so schooling didn't work for him either). The only bit that he was happy in that also gave me brakes was a waterford three ring gag with two reins. I could hold him to a very pleasant canter with very little pressure in that - in anything else I was really having to haul on his mouth and he was constantly fighting me. I rode of the top rein most of the time and tied the bottom rein in a knot on his neck, only picking it up when I needed to.

I also did one of these courses which was excellent. It was a while ago now though and I never hear anything about him any more so not sure he's still doing them.

Hold Your Horses – MS Jump

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Well.......... I am going to be quite stern with you I'm afraid. With mine - I didn't really realise it at the time but whenever I got to a good cantering spot I'd be letting her go, and she (being a cob) took me literally and was tanking in canter instead of being polite about it, and also tanking (rudely asking for canter) whilst she was still in trot. This was when she was around 6yo or so - the very worst time to let any bad habits develop. I had given in to the temptation for a nice little canter..... and a rude bolshy pony was what I'd got - and just hadn't realised it!

A friend (a very honest friend, thankfully) saw what was happening, and told me what she was seeing!! I'm very glad she did. Sometimes you don't realise what you are "permitting" them to do until you have a problem which you need to rectify, and I am afraid you are going to need to do some remedial work unless you want a pony which is going to tank off whenever she pleases and possibly put both of you in danger.

You don't have access to a school. Fine, no problem. Neither do we. You will need to do all your "schooling" on hacks. Forget about cantering for now. Forget about trotting even. Sorry this is gonna be hard! You will NOT be permitted to canter in all your favourite places! Your horse has trained you, not the other way around, you MUST change this dynamic. So........ you need to concentrate purely on walk, for now. Get her going into a good productive forward active walk - and make her stay at that pace for at least an hour's hack. She doesn't go faster - and she doesn't go slower either. You need to see & feel her hips and whole back end really swinging and she needs to be working forward all the time. Be strict about it and don't let her trot, OR lag behind your leg. I'm needing to do this for an hour a day at the moment as rehabbing mine after a break and this is for fittening, but you can equally do it for training purposes. Do a week of this, then when you are ready introduce some half halts & leg-yields. You are not ready to trot just yet!! Please be patient! Not easy I know. Then you are going to do say six paces of walk then transition to trot, and back again. Do it on each diagonal as you are hacking. Then go up to say 12 paces of walk and 12 of trot. Make sure that your trot is when YOU want not when she wants! And really concentrate on those downward transitions! Keep them neat not sloppy. When (and I say WHEN) you are both ready: introduce a few paces of canter and then back to trot again. And keep repeating, so she learns that going into canter does NOT mean a mad Hoon!

You will have to work hard on this: and it may be of help if you can perhaps hire a school and do this with an instructor in a safe environment. Your mare needs to realise that she must come back to hand safely and correctly at all times - for both your sakes. You as the rider have done what we all do and seen a great opportunity for a canter, but now you have the situation where your horse has trained you and is setting the pace rather than you! And you will need to put in some work to sort it. Sorry, I've been quite robust in what I've said, but this is what you will need to do to sort this problem out. You will need to resist the urge to have a good hoon for a good while! Sorry! And for the future, you will need to take care that you don't always canter in the same spot - keep it varied; always keep your mare guessing. Never be predictable!

Re. bitting. I do not think this is a bitting issue; it is that she has obviously realised that she can dictate the pace rather than the rider. However if you do feel that some bitting advice would be good I would suggest someone like "The Bit Fit Lady" as this might be a productive way of finding out whether there is a bit which would suit her better.

 

[Landcruiser]

I second that ^^^. I would also introduce flexing and 1 rein stop, all of which can be done on hacks.

 

[Fjord]

Just to add a different option, my fjord was in a pelham with 2 reins and we still had issues with brakes, especially in canter. I switched to a hackamore and have far more control now. Obviously it might be totally different for your horse, and I wouldn't suggest trying this out in the open!

 

[Highmileagecob]

MiJodhs advice is excellent. If you want to vary the routine, ask for a good walk, look ahead to a prominent tree and ask for halt beside the tree. Loads of praise, and she does not set off again until you ask. It's all about teaching her to listen to you, and you give the instructions that she follows. Good luck, once you have cracked it you will have a fantastic hacking companion.

 

[benz]

The technique I usually use when cobs bog off with me is - kick them on, that usually makes them go ‘what? No I think I’ll slow down thanks’ don’t let them push on a bit more (doesn’t have to be miles!) once you are happy you want to slow down ask for walk and walk back to the exact point they bogged off. Turn round and ask for polite walk/trot/steady canter whatever you want. Repeat as necessary probs won’t need to do more than twice ?

 

[JGC]

Excellent advice from MiJodhs.

I would just add maybe try bridging the reins when you do get to the stage of cantering again.

 

[Nasicus]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions and detailed replies all, it's very much appreciated!
For what it's worth, our control in walk and trot is very good now, it took a lot of work and building up to it, lots of long rides in walk. To be honest our rides are about 95% walk anyway, I'm never in a rush. We do lots of 'trot to this tree, transition to walk, walk to next tree, transition to trot' and the like.
I do vary where we have a little zoom, never the same place twice in a row and if she anticipates and tries to go into trot in anticipation before my say so then we stay firmly in walk.

As for getting her to flex, again we've worked really hard at it, and are starting to see results. She was driven in the past so turns like a bus, however we've been spending a lot of time weaving in and out of the trees in walk, going over logs, up and down the terrain, doubling back on ourselves, all to get her listening to me and really having to bend and flex her body. By all means we're starting to see success with it, and her turning in general is starting to see a bit of bend to it!

@Abacus you make a very good point about the trot being under control prior to asking for canter, by all accounts it's definitely different from the usual comfortable, slow trot I expect of her, so I definitely need to be stricter in that regard.

As for lunging, not sure that's a grand idea on my incredibly steep hill... However yard owner is making noises about getting one of her paddocks levelled out to make a grass school, so if that happens then it'll be on the list.

MiJodhs, excellent post and I appreciate you taking the time to write that out!
Although this bit made me laugh:

You are not ready to trot just yet!! Please be patient! Not easy I know.

I am a lazy laaaazy woman, I will quite happily spend my entire hack in walk. I only really trot because pony and I are both kinda fat
I shall consider the urge to hoon completely nixed for now, and we will work even harder at improving our control and consistency

 

[Birker2020]

Just after some ideas on how I can slow my 14hh Heavy Cob down.
We're happy hackers, and have miles of forestry to explore since moving, so plenty of opportunities for a nice canter. However, we do not get nice canters, we get strong, tanky gallops! She'll go from trot to gallop and whilst we're not completely out of control, it does take a fair bit of hauling and distance to get her to slow down back to trot/walk. I plan for this, obviously, but I'd much rather be able to pop into canter and then go up a gear from there if I want than go straight into I AM SEABISCUIT HEAR ME ROAR!
She will pull her head forward and down as we go, I wouldn't say she's grabbing the bit. However it's not a war I can win by my own strength alone.

She's ridden in a mullen mouth pelham (with tongue relief) with roundings, I'm wondering if it's worth changing to two reins, a jointed pelham or perhaps a swales pelham with two reins so I can ask her to stop with the curb/leverage without the poll pressure encouraging the head down? And then just remain on the snaffle rein for the rest of the ride.

We've made great progress in getting her to slow down and relax in general since I got her in November, she came with a rather hard mouth and the idea that she had to trot as speed everywhere to the point where a pelham was the only bit I could use to safely ride her, anything less might as well have not been there. She can still be jigjoggy at times, but generally the only speed/control issue we have now is going faster than trot. We previously were able to drop down to a Slotted Kimblewick, but went back into the pelham when we moved as the woods were entirely very exciting at first.

At the end of the day, having a little zoom isn't a requirement, we just tootle around the woods and have a good time, but it would be nice to have the option to do so and to do so in a slightly more controlled manner, be it with a different bitting setup, through exercises or through other means.

I'd say you need to bridge your reins so she is not pulling against you but herself instead.

 

[SEL]

Cobs do have a tendency to get on the forehand and tank in canter - I think it's easy for them than a slow, balanced, using their back end canter. My Ardennes used to do exactly what you'd describe when he was younger although the Pelham on 2 reins made him remember I was there.

Microcob can do exactly what you're describing if I drop my concentration. She's bitless by necessity so I don't have the option of playing around there.

I've been doing what @MiJodsR2BlinkinTite suggested to you above and we've had a few cob strops as a result! How dare I ask her for a short trot, vaguely balanced instead of her spine jarring driving trot?!! She's perfectly capable but coming back from extended sick leave so needs to find the right muscles again when she'd prefer to be zooming.

When the big boy was in work I did find 2 reins got his attention more than roundings. Canter (or at least approaching somewhere he thought he should canter) was the only time I needed to bottom rein to stop him being rude

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

MiJodhs advice is excellent. If you want to vary the routine, ask for a good walk, look ahead to a prominent tree and ask for halt beside the tree. Loads of praise, and she does not set off again until you ask. It's all about teaching her to listen to you, and you give the instructions that she follows. Good luck, once you have cracked it you will have a fantastic hacking companion.

^^^ Yesss!! I use telephone poles! Yes she must listen to you. You could also introduce voice-commands; I've been doing it with mine. Also when we get to a road junction we do "steady-aannndd-WAIT". You need to prefix your commands with something so the horse knows you're about to give a command which is why I use my horse's name as a prefix to get her attention - that way if we're riding in company it doesn't mean the whole shaboodle hoons off when I say "Canter"!!! So on a downwards transition and/or for halt it will be XXXX-steady-and-waalkk; or XXXX-and-walk-on, trot or whatever. Also using tone of voice: coming down for slowing down and appropriate tone for moving forwards. They soon get the hang of it.

 

[Nasicus]

^^^ Yesss!! I use telephone poles! Yes she must listen to you. You could also introduce voice-commands; I've been doing it with mine. Also when we get to a road junction we do "steady-aannndd-WAIT". You need to prefix your commands with something so the horse knows you're about to give a command which is why I use my horse's name as a prefix to get her attention - that way if we're riding in company it doesn't mean the whole shaboodle hoons off when I say "Canter"!!! So on a downwards transition and/or for halt it will be XXXX-steady-and-waalkk; or XXXX-and-walk-on, trot or whatever. Also using tone of voice: coming down for slowing down and appropriate tone for moving forwards. They soon get the hang of it.

Already in place, I'm not completely clueless thankfully! Big fan of vocal cues and have taught them to all the horses I've had.
'xxx, aaaand whoooah' 'xxx stand' 'xxx Trot on' 'xxx Nicely' (that's for when the driving trot starts emerging) 'xxx steeeeaady' 'Xxx Waaaalkiiing' and so on and so forth.
By all accounts, our walk and trot control are pretty good, just seems adding a bit of speed makes her forget a lot of what she's already been taught at slower speeds. In fairness to her, she doesn't start to canter/gallop until I say she can, she'll go into a super speedy trot (which we'll try get under control) but won't actually go until I say 'Go On Then'.

I feel it's really important to state, she doesn't just bog off with me when she feels like it, and I think some people may be getting the wrong impression from my words. It is that when she is asked for a canter, we get a gallop.

 

[Elno]

To me it sounds like your horse lacks muscles and strength to canter slow, and that is why you get a flat out gallop when you ask for canter- she makes up for the loss of balance with speed and probably runs on the forehand. That is not something that you can fix by changing the bit but rather working on developing some muscles and strenght so she can carry herself properly.

 

[ponynutz]

Honestly? I gave up and just let her do it on hacks, she never did it in the school unless there were jumps.

But agree with everyone else, what I should have done is back to basics and lessons!

 

[Highmileagecob]

Think you just have a happy hacker who is glad to be out of the shafts! I can get my cob to respect most voice commands, he is also bitless, and will stop and stand at road junctions etc. but I am fascinated to know how the western riders teach their horses to ground tie - mine will do it when he feels like it but I wouldn't trust him in an open space!

 

[J&S]

I am sure I read on your thread some where that your cob had been drivn previously. This would seem to me to be the crux of the matter.
She was quite likely expected to crash along at a great vanners' trot and never actually was taught to canter. This would explain the rushing trot prior to going into a fast, unbalanced canter. I am not a great advocate of using schools but in this sort of case they are useful. We brought on a great many cobs in our RDA group and I can assure you the beginning canters were like riding the wall of death, however, very short canters, large circles and only cantering 1/4 circles to begin with can help to steady them. A useful exercise is to canter the circle behind a well schooled horse so yours has to slow down behind them but has the continual impetus to keep up.
Those that said that the quality of the trot is important are so very correct, you need to feel your horse is really lifting under neath you, not in any way pulling down, before you start to canter. A driving horse uses its shoulders to pull, we want a riding horse to be taking weight behind. Good luck and have fun on your journey.

 

[Nasicus]

I am sure I read on your thread some where that your cob had been drivn previously. This would seem to me to be the crux of the matter.
She was quite likely expected to crash along at a great vanners' trot and never actually was taught to canter. This would explain the rushing trot prior to going into a fast, unbalanced canter. I am not a great advocate of using schools but in this sort of case they are useful. We brought on a great many cobs in our RDA group and I can assure you the beginning canters were like riding the wall of death, however, very short canters, large circles and only cantering 1/4 circles to begin with can help to steady them. A useful exercise is to canter the circle behind a well schooled horse so yours has to slow down behind them but has the continual impetus to keep up.
Those that said that the quality of the trot is important are so very correct, you need to feel your horse is really lifting under neath you, not in any way pulling down, before you start to canter. A driving horse uses its shoulders to pull, we want a riding horse to be taking weight behind. Good luck and have fun on your journey.

I think you're right in saying it's the crux of things, I have to be very 'on it' in trot to maintain a nice, comfortable rhythm otherwise she quickly slips back into TURBO TROT. But that has improved over time, and we're getting a lot more sensible trots on a relaxed rein. We should in time get to the point where I can relax and have a nice, leisurely trot without having a micromanager it so much!
My first pony was exactly the same, having been driven and thinking she had to trot everywhere and at super speeds. The kind you keep your leg off as even a teensy brush of your leg and you're trotting. She will get there, like I did with first pony, it's just going to take time.

Some useful exercises there, whilst I'm SOL for a school or flat field for now (even locally, everything is very hilly here, fab for building muscle though!) I can certainly try find a riding companion with a sensible slow canter-er we could go on a few hacks with. Or failing that wait until the YO gets her schooling area put in and give them a go then.

 

[queenarmadillo]

To me it sounds like your horse lacks muscles and strength to canter slow, and that is why you get a flat out gallop when you ask for canter- she makes up for the loss of balance with speed and probably runs on the forehand. That is not something that you can fix by changing the bit but rather working on developing some muscles and strenght so she can carry herself properly.

If your control in walk and trot is good, and you can get back into trot out of canter when you ask, then I'd definitely be considering this, particularly if the places you tend to ask for canter are uphill. A lot of people pick an uphill to canter to make it harder for the horse to run off, but its also harder for them to collect and balance on it if they aren't fit. Maybe start going into canter for 6-10 strides at whatever pace the horse is comfortable with, on a flat section if possible and then back to trot each time. Eventually he will start to anticipate the return to trot so want to slow down a bit, and the transitions should help build strength and balance so he is then able to offer a steadier and more engaged gait.

 

[Lois Lame]

In fairness to her, she doesn't start to canter/gallop until I say she can, she'll go into a super speedy trot (which we'll try get under control) but won't actually go until I say 'Go On Then'.

But, is that partially because going into a canter is a little tricky (for the horse) while the rider is posting to the trot? When you are ready to canter, you stop posting, and, *bong*, the horse (very easily) hops into canter.

 

[Lois Lame]

Can you work on slowing the trot down before really attempting to slow the canter down?

 

[maya2008]

Do you have a friend to hack with? You need to do a ton of transitions to get your mare off her forehand and under control, but I appreciate that it’s hard if a straight line is all you have. If you had a friend who could go in front, you’d have a brake and it would help you to get that transition. The friend would also provide an example on how to behave for your cob.

 

[Nasicus]

Howdy, thought it was only fair to give an update!
Thank you all for giving my head a wobble, I had someone whom I have a lot of respect for trying to convince me to bit up when I asked the original question, and you all reminded me that I didn't need to go down that route.

Anyway, I sat back and had a good think about what I was doing. By all accounts, not much! Incidents from the past have left me going from in control leader to total passenger whenever going up a gear is concerned. I would let pony run into a flat, fast trot, stand up in 2 point, squeeze and then she of course would run into a gallop, and I wouldn't do much besides stand in 2 point and haul on the reins to stop before we reached the end. It's like my brain just kind of flatlines and goes numb.
It was a good kick up the arse to read the feedback on here!
And I'm pleased to say that the last two times we've gone a little faster, it's been at a canter! Really worked on being the driver, not the passenger. Slowing that anticipatory trot down to a sensible pace, keeping it there until I can feel her settle, and then sitting(!) and asking verbally to canter. By all means, it's still a strong canter, but using some tips here I've been able to control it and keep it nice and bouncy, prevent it from escalating into a gallop, and stopping in a much more timely fashion. You can tell it's more difficult and more work for her than just galloping, but I'm sure in time and with practice it will get easier and more relaxed.
Part of it has been about trusting her too, and is where my anxieties from previous horses/incidents come into play, but to give Pony her due, she's a little star and not a bad bone in her!