Cantering on the road

[LEC]

He will have wanted that for the firm surfaces and support.

I also think it's all very well for scientists to know the concussion forces from trotting on roads, but are they worse than the damage to ligaments and tendons from circling on arenas, especially if the arena surface isn't 100% (and how many are?).

And are fit horses less likely to injure themselves that unfit ones? And if so is it safer to get a horse properly fit with only arena work, or by trotting it on roads if that's all you have available as an alternative?

Anecdotally, I feel as if I'm hearing of a lot more horses of 6 and 7 written off with arthritis than in the days when it was routine to trot for very long stretches on roads.
.

So many reasons diagnostics being number 1. Soundness was in the eye of the beholder. We are obsessed with soundness now and as with humans there are degrees. Sound enough to do the job would have been the primary interest. My personal theory is it’s also about 0-4 years old and what people do. The peder Frederickson experiment is ongoing but they have got a lot of data coming in and it will be fascinating to see the results.

 

[LEC]

This thread is actually blowing my mind - anecdote doesn’t = data.

 

[TheMule]

Never let scientific facts get in the way of a good story ?

It's really, really simple. Pressure = force/ area

Therefore…..
- The higher the force (IE cantering rather than slow trotting) = more pressure.
- The lower the area (eg one foot on the floor at a time as in canter rather than 2 as in trot) = more pressure
- A shod hoof exerts slightly more force due to an increase in mass from the shoe itself and over a smaller area = more pressure
- Tarmac is a good consistent but it also does not yield at all so when the horse places it’s feet down, a lot of the force goes back up the limb

Pressure onto a limb is affected by far more things than that (the horse's conformation being a major one), muscle conditioning and rider weight being another.

If you want a sound horse you should- reduce pressure on the limb through excellent foot care (shod or unshod), condition the soft tissue structures slowly and progressively, work the horse on good, level, stable surfaces, minimize concussive pressures, keep your own weight down and ride in the best balance you can.

Simple, right?!! ??

 

[stangs]

I don’t trot on roads with either horse unless they are unshod or booted (and I’m not even sure if boots are less concussive than shoes but in my head it makes sense)

I would think there's significantly less concussion with boots than shoes, as metal absorbs impact less than rubber does. Same reason that no one has steel soles on their running shoes.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Re the concussion thing....does this refer mostly to shod horses?

I've never liked trotting a shod horse for long on a hard surface but my unshod ponies never seem to have suffered any ill effects.

I was also thinking about how running is recommended for ladies of a certain age as it can help keep osteoporosis at bay by increasing bone density.

Unshod horses will get less of a concussion but the damage will still be done.

 

[Tinsel]

I remember getting told canter on grass or in a riding school was safe but on the road was a big no

 

[Mule]

Another thing about shoes is the vibration from metal when trotting on the road is much stronger than boots or barefoot. I only found this out recenly but vibration is damaging to the tissues.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Another thing about shoes is the vibration from metal when trotting on the road is much stronger than boots or barefoot. I only found this out recenly but vibration is damaging to the tissues.

Vibration is damaging to the tissues?
This sounds like utter bullocks!

Concussion forces are bad for the joints, whether it's human or horse. People still do it and most try and justify it with either "I've always done it and it was fine " or "it's fine if barefoot".
The cantering on tarmac argument as being somehow better is just laughable.

Do it if you want but don't try and argue that it doesn't cause damage.

 

[milliepops]

arent those vitafloor things all about vibration?

 

[Red-1]

I mainly walk on the roads, only trot if I need to get out of the way of traffic. I do trot on a hard core track, that is still hard enough to ring the shoes, but that seems OK to me.

What I think is the big difference is the balance of the foot. So many shoes that don't go to the back of the heel or are tight. So many grow forward, leading to long term collapsed heels and leverage. I think that has more damaging effect.

But I do only walk on the road.

 

[southerncomfort]

Vibration is damaging to the tissues?
This sounds like utter bullocks!

Concussion forces are bad for the joints, whether it's human or horse. People still do it and most try and justify it with either "I've always done it and it was fine " or "it's fine if barefoot".
The cantering on tarmac argument as being somehow better is just laughable.

Do it if you want but don't try and argue that it doesn't cause damage.

For the avoidance of doubt I said that none of my unshod horses had ever shown any issues especially when compared to shod horses. However, that does not mean that I spend every ride charging up and down the roads. Most of our hacks are done at walk.

I do not believe that an occasional trot on a hard surface is detrimental to an unshod horse. As with everything, common sense needs to be applied.

 

[View]

Vibration is damaging to the tissues?
This sounds like utter bullocks!

Why would you just dismiss this as a non issue? Vibration is known to cause permanent damage in humans - maybe we just don’t know about this yet in horses?

We know that soft tissue lameness shows more in softer surfaces, and hard tissue more on hard surfaces. To me, therefore, it makes sense to work on a variety of surfaces. I also believe in fittening properly, but again on a variety of surfaces but the longer trot work is done on a more forgiving surface than a tarmac road.

 

[Mule]

Vibration is damaging to the tissues?
This sounds like utter bullocks!

Concussion forces are bad for the joints, whether it's human or horse. People still do it and most try and justify it with either "I've always done it and it was fine " or "it's fine if barefoot".
The cantering on tarmac argument as being somehow better is just laughable.

Do it if you want but don't try and argue that it doesn't cause damage.

Studies that back up my assertion. Or 'utter bullocks' as you refer to it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...list_uids=8470451&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=17

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10659261&query_hl=3

An article in the American Farriers Journal.
https://www.americanfarriers.com/ar...them-is-as-important-as-knowing-how?v=preview

 

[Sossigpoker]

Why would you just dismiss this as a non issue? Vibration is known to cause permanent damage in humans - maybe we just don’t know about this yet in horses?

We know that soft tissue lameness shows more in softer surfaces, and hard tissue more on hard surfaces. To me, therefore, it makes sense to work on a variety of surfaces. I also believe in fittening properly, but again on a variety of surfaces but the longer trot work is done on a more forgiving surface than a tarmac road.

Yes to working on a variety of surfaces but that doesn't mean hammering down on tarmac.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Studies that to back up your 'bullocks'?
There are more.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10685692&query_hl=5

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...list_uids=8470451&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=17

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10659261&query_hl=3

On a quick glance those don't seem to conclude that "vibration is damaging to tissues ".

 

[View]

Yes to working on a variety of surfaces but that doesn't mean hammering down on tarmac.

And we are in agreement on that.

 

[Gloi]

Might be worth doing studies with driving horses/people.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Not just the road pounding also the setting off in gallop and jumping in green but deep wet heavy going

Agree with this.

Local pack has posted a recent video of the field tackling a medium sized hedge. The landing slopes down towards the hedge, there may be a ditch there, but you can't see it on the video.

All horses and riders cleared it, with the good ones sailing clean over without a break in rhythm. But too many didn't attack it and got in too close, so that the horses landed short on the rising ground ?. Not a pretty sight.

Going back to tarmac - most of the local lanes are strongly cambered, which is far from ideal, especially when I have a wonky horse to rehab .

 

[Mule]

arent those vitafloor things all about vibration?

The rubber floor dampens the vibration

 

[Mule]

On a quick glance those don't seem to conclude that "vibration is damaging to tissues ".

Have a longer glance and perhaps acqaint yourself with scientific journals.

 

[milliepops]

The rubber floor dampens the vibration

i don't know the first thing about them but they do seem to bang on about the benefits of whole body vibration.

I am a *mostly walking* on the roads person. when i was younger I was on an old fangled yard and everything did lots of trotting on the road to "harden the legs" but as people have mentioned, times have changed.

 

[PoniesRock]

The average hunter lasts 3 seasons here before it's knackered, as said to me by an equine professional who also hunts. The regular pounding on the slippery roads - the fast unbalanced butcher's boy trot and canter - won't help in keeping them sound.

Three seasons ? what do they do to them?! Mines just finished her fourth season and she’s done 30 days this season. We aren’t a jumping pack but she’s done the miles.

As for cantering on the roads, I would never intentionally canter the roads out exercising as I think it’s slippy and it would worry me about meeting traffic.

 

[Mule]

i don't know the first thing about them but they do seem to bang on about the benefits of whole body vibration.

I am a *mostly walking* on the roads person. when i was younger I was on an old fangled yard and everything did lots of trotting on the road to "harden the legs" but as people have mentioned, times have changed.

Hi frequency and low magnitude vibration increases bone density. It's a balancing act between the frequency level that is beneficial for bone density and frequency level that damage soft tissue.

Barefoot, plastic shoes and steel shoes with sole packing with impression material reduce vibrations. It's the vibration frequency of metal contact with the road that is a problem.

Hooves packed with impression material mimic barefoot by spreading the load to the frog and sole, enabling concussion absorption.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

Meanwhile, for humans:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/well/move/why-running-wont-ruin-your-knees.html (part paywalled)

 

[Jenko109]

Three seasons ? what do they do to them?! Mines just finished her fourth season and she’s done 30 days this season. We aren’t a jumping pack but she’s done the miles.

Agree. It confused me too. I dont hunt my horse but have friends who hunt regularly who have been hunting the same horses for years.

The hireling I rode in Ireland was an old horse with many, many years of hunting under his belt and was perfectly sound.

 

[Mule]

Agree. It confused me too. I dont hunt my horse but have friends who hunt regularly who have been hunting the same horses for years.

The hireling I rode in Ireland was an old horse with many, many years of hunting under his belt and was perfectly sound.

I wonder is it because they get time off and shoes pulled over the summer so have a chance to recover from any niggling injuries. They also don't tend to do lots of circles on arena surfaces.

 

[palo1]

Agree. It confused me too. I dont hunt my horse but have friends who hunt regularly who have been hunting the same horses for years.

The hireling I rode in Ireland was an old horse with many, many years of hunting under his belt and was perfectly sound.

My senior horse has done 8 seasons of trail hunting though our country does not involve masses of road work and is pretty much non-jumping. Most people I know value their hunters very highly and would not choose to compromise their soundness by excessive concussion and lots of the horses I know have done quite a few seasons - I hate the idea even that 3 or 4 seasons would knacker a horse; there is absolutely no excuse for that. Very few of my friends would choose to jump out of deep going either and these days the vast majority of hunts have a non-jumping field and information for those who would not choose to trot on the road (ie where the lines are going to be) so would be going slower. I have experienced some pretty horrible hard going at endurance rides/races where lots of people don't mind cantering for miles on forestry hard core. Endurance as a discipline is quite cautious generally but I was never particularly comfortable with miles of trotting and cantering on forestry roads tbh.

 

[ycbm]

Meanwhile, for humans:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/21/well/move/why-running-wont-ruin-your-knees.html (part paywalled)
View attachment 88626View attachment 88626

Great post..

We know trotting on the road causes higher concussion to the joints than walking. Fact.

Do we know for a fact that it causes damage, as some people seem to be asserting? I'm not aware of any long term study that has recorded the exact levels of road work that horses have done and linked that directly to unsoundness of the joints.
.

 

[ihatework]

Never let scientific facts get in the way of a good story ?

It's really, really simple. Pressure = force/ area

Therefore…..
- The higher the force (IE cantering rather than slow trotting) = more pressure.
- The lower the area (eg one foot on the floor at a time as in canter rather than 2 as in trot) = more pressure
- A shod hoof exerts slightly more force due to an increase in mass from the shoe itself and over a smaller area = more pressure
- Tarmac is a good consistent but it also does not yield at all so when the horse places it’s feet down, a lot of the force goes back up the limb

Pressure onto a limb is affected by far more things than that (the horse's conformation being a major one), muscle conditioning and rider weight being another.

If you want a sound horse you should- reduce pressure on the limb through excellent foot care (shod or unshod), condition the soft tissue structures slowly and progressively, work the horse on good, level, stable surfaces, minimize concussive pressures, keep your own weight down and ride in the best balance you can.

Simple, right?!! ??

So horsemanship then ?

 

[TheMule]

So horsemanship then ?

Boring