CAP Payments to the South Dorset Hunt from the European Union

[Judgemental]

Can anybody explain why a pack of hounds namely The South Dorset Hunt, is in receipt of payments (Benefits) from the European Union.

According to: http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/

Euros 117,287.98 were paid between 1999 and 2013

According to: http://cap-payments.defra.gov.uk/Search.aspx

£7,805.14 were paid in 2014

Obviously the Labour Party and their support for staying in the EU is clearly in favor of funding hunt's from state funds. Really!

In a back handed way, I may be doing the hunt a favor, because it is my information that this specific fact is going to be flagged up by the media and in various debates running up to 23 June.

Therefore perhaps they should dig out the Anderson Shelters and Tin Helmets.

 

[Maesfen]

Perhaps farm subsidy type things.

I know of some packs in Ireland that have been built their kennels with EU money.

 

[Lanky Loll]

Depending on how the kennels operates if they have land that is eligible for a subsidy why should they not apply and get it?

Measure Description Payment
Single area payment scheme £7,281.64
Agri-environment payments £523.50

 

[Lanky Loll]

Also a simple search on the word hunt on there brings up several others if you sift through.

 

[Judgemental]

Perhaps farm subsidy type things.

I know of some packs in Ireland that have been built their kennels with EU money.

Quite possibly but that is not quite the way the media will see it, that tax payers are funding a hunt. Frankly I am astonished that the registration and payment is made in the name of the hunt.

 

[Judgemental]

Also a simple search on the word hunt on there brings up several others if you sift through.

Goodness me you are right, all this taxpayer money being paid to hunts up and down the country. Quite astonishing.

Indeed a total of £68,012 for 2014

But then, one can hardly have a referendum on the EU, without the inevitability of all this very interesting information coming to the surface. The Labour party who oppose hunting plainly support hunt's receiving money from Brussels. Weird.

South Dorset 7,805
Belvoir 5,660
Burton 1,593
Chesire 1,173
East Devon 1,699
East Essex 1,143
East Kent 1,776
Fernie 7,435
Grafton 1,106
Ledbury 5,024
South and West Wilts 1,059
Dartmoor 3,083
Melton 12,523
Puckeridge 1,215
Quorn 4,764
Braes of Derwent 1,120
Eggesford 1,692
Cotswold 11,761
Warwickshire 1,232
West Norfolk 2,530
Woodland and Pytchley 1,052

 

[popsdosh]

Not just hunts though I think you will find , LACS also claims payments but maybe hidden under a different identity. Just found it nearly £200k which sort of dwarfs the others .So theres equality after all maybe.

Most hunts own some land and coverts and indeed many are deemed to be conservation habitats that attract further funding why should they not.

It is indeed one of the fairer points of the system that anybody may claim as long as they have eligible land. One of the biggest beneficiaries is the RSPB (some £30+ million) and indeed several government and NGOs all have their fingers in the pie.

 

[Judgemental]

Not just hunts though I think you will find , LACS also claims payments but maybe hidden under a different identity. Just found it nearly £200k which sort of dwarfs the others .So theres equality after all maybe.

Most hunts own some land and coverts and indeed many are deemed to be conservation habitats that attract further funding why should they not.

It is indeed one of the fairer points of the system that anybody may claim as long as they have eligible land. One of the biggest beneficiaries is the RSPB (some £30+ million) and indeed several government and NGOs all have their fingers in the pie.

This is all very interesting. I found £57,036.00 for the League Against Cruel Sports Ltd not sure where you found £200k?

But no matter, what is important that vast sums of money are being paid by the poor unsuspecting tax payer. Which would be better spent on Hospitals, Housing, Schools, Roads and Infrastructure.

It would be otiose to suggest the tax payer is informed, or that they can enjoy all this land that attracts the Single Farm Payment etc. Because you and I know they cannot.

Nevertheless by 23 June, I am certain the poor tax payer on the 'Clapham Ominibus' will be better informed and will have these issues writ large, for them to decide whether In or Out of the EU is best for the country, the landed idle aristocratic gentry with inherited land, packs of hounds or the League.

Of course one of the most interesting features is that contained in a piece in The Guardian of 2005.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/mar/23/eu.freedomofinformation

 

[popsdosh]

You may also be interested that the Dyson family pension fund receives about 2.5m every year under the guise of Beeswax farming

 

[chillipup]

You may also be interested that the Dyson family pension fund receives about 2.5m every year under the guise of Beeswax farming

Oh yes, it appears Dyson have bought out a huge amount of agricultural estates/farms and land in my area of North East Lincolnshire.

 

[Countryman]

I'm not sure what your point is JM? Yes, everybody with land is paid a subsidy in return for treating it how the EU demand. Everybody owning land includes farmers, pony owners, county councils, companies, charities, clubs, and yes hunts...

 

[Judgemental]

I'm not sure what your point is JM? Yes, everybody with land is paid a subsidy in return for treating it how the EU demand. Everybody owning land includes farmers, pony owners, county councils, companies, charities, clubs, and yes hunts...

Because in the first instance I came across this information purely by chance.

It is clear the UK is going to vote to leave the EU.

You will doubtless say, "that is a very bold assertion".

I won't go into all my reasons other than to say, the British people are very annoyed by the number of outsiders, the government have brought in to tell us how to vote. Latterly the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, a Canadian. In the words of Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, "Carney should be immediately fired"

However more importantly, because of the information concerning Farm Subsidies, Benefits and Entitlements that are going to be the major focal talking point, by major politicians in the next few days.

I predict that should the Remain vote scrape home (which is very unlikely) Farm Subsidies, having been flagged up and the absurdities such as hunts receiving the Single Farm payment will, having been somewhat clandestine, will cease. Along with money for the very wealthy landed inherited titled estates.

Referendums traditionally throw up factors that folk will want to change.

 

[honetpot]

Because in the first instance I came across this information purely by chance.

It is clear the UK is going to vote to leave the EU.

You will doubtless say, "that is a very bold assertion".

I won't go into all my reasons other than to say, the British people are very annoyed by the number of outsiders, the government have brought in to tell us how to vote. Latterly the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, a Canadian. In the words of Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, "Carney should be immediately fired"

However more importantly, because of the information concerning Farm Subsidies, Benefits and Entitlements that are going to be the major focal talking point, by major politicians in the next few days.

I predict that should the Remain vote scrape home (which is very unlikely) Farm Subsidies, having been flagged up and the absurdities such as hunts receiving the Single Farm payment will, having been somewhat clandestine, will cease. Along with money for the very wealthy landed inherited titled estates.

Referendums traditionally throw up factors that folk will want to change.

You may have come by it by chance but its freely available information. Like it cost £38 to dispense a prescription, but of course to most people they think NHS prescriptions are free.

 

[popsdosh]

[QUOTE Because in the first instance I came across this information purely by chance.

It is clear the UK is going to vote to leave the EU.

You will doubtless say, "that is a very bold assertion".

I won't go into all my reasons other than to say, the British people are very annoyed by the number of outsiders, the government have brought in to tell us how to vote. Latterly the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, a Canadian. In the words of Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, "Carney should be immediately fired"

However more importantly, because of the information concerning Farm Subsidies, Benefits and Entitlements that are going to be the major focal talking point, by major politicians in the next few days.

I predict that should the Remain vote scrape home (which is very unlikely) Farm Subsidies, having been flagged up and the absurdities such as hunts receiving the Single Farm payment will, having been somewhat clandestine, will cease. Along with money for the very wealthy landed inherited titled estates.

Referendums traditionally throw up factors that folk will want to change.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...ropean-Union/page2#8gfCHceIgEpT7AMz.99/QUOTE]

Why ? is it absurd that hunts can claim that money they have to climb through the same hoops as everybody else who claims.
If you manage a parcel of land you should be entitled to the same payments as everybody else you all have to pass the active farmer test which is why your figures are somewhat out of date because as of 2015 the system has indeed changed making it more difficult to claim this money which in effect is a subsidy to everybody in the UK however that argument will be lost on you. I certainly wont keep producing food at a loss for the general public the last two years the only thing that has kept our business afloat is the payments and we are by no means a small farm either the general public want affordable food or start paying the real cost of it and the swings in production that lead to scarecity and eventually conflict .

 

[jrp204]

There is nothing 'clandestine' about hunts claiming sfp. If they meet the criteria why shouldn't they? It is public information and easily found as is everyone else's payments.
Not sure why it is such a big deal, I would have thought there are far worse issues to be dealt with. Even if we do leave, which I don't think we will. (This idea that this little island has power and influence on its own is somewhat deluded) farmers will either need subsidies to continue or food prices will need to rise.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

You may also be interested that the Dyson family pension fund receives about 2.5m every year under the guise of Beeswax farming

lol, what next ..... duck houses?

 

[hobo]

There is nothing 'clandestine' about hunts claiming sfp. If they meet the criteria why shouldn't they? It is public information and easily found as is everyone else's payments.
Not sure why it is such a big deal, I would have thought there are far worse issues to be dealt with. Even if we do leave, which I don't think we will. (This idea that this little island has power and influence on its own is somewhat deluded) farmers will either need subsidies to continue or food prices will need to rise.

As above very well written post.

 

[Alec Swan]

Tell me J_M, if you're able to separate yourself from your apparent outrage at the injustice, as you see it, what's your view on the fact that the CAP supports Spanish bullfighting?

Also, and whilst I'm here, wealthy you may be and able to buy your food at a price which would reflect the fact that there is no support for agriculture and food production, but I can ASSURE you that a great many aren't and should there be no financial support which allows us to buy food that we can afford, then the inability of the poor and those who aren't high earners would bring about devastation. With third world diets, which I'm imagining that your suggesting, what then of the pressures upon our NH system? Would you be happy to put your hand in your pocket and offer a voluntary and additional support?

I'm sorry mate, but you don't 'alf spout some crap at times. Why I remain fond of you remains a mystery!

Alec.

 

[Judgemental]

Tell me J_M, if you're able to separate yourself from your apparent outrage at the injustice, as you see it, what's your view on the fact that the CAP supports Spanish bullfighting?

Also, and whilst I'm here, wealthy you may be and able to buy your food at a price which would reflect the fact that there is no support for agriculture and food production, but I can ASSURE you that a great many aren't and should there be no financial support which allows us to buy food that we can afford, then the inability of the poor and those who aren't high earners would bring about devastation. With third world diets, which I'm imagining that your suggesting, what then of the pressures upon our NH system? Would you be happy to put your hand in your pocket and offer a voluntary and additional support?

I'm sorry mate, but you don't 'alf spout some crap at times. Why I remain fond of you remains a mystery!

Alec.

Alec I always feel the Special Relationship betwixt East Anglia and the West Country is in good heart when you oppose my views.

After all everybody has to have a special relationship these days!

Firstly until I posted this new thread, this board was more or less inactive and very boring. So I can take comfort in my altruism of helping the advertising revenue of Horse or Hound.

Secondly in my original opening post I said:

" In a back handed way, I may be doing the hunt a favor, because it is my information that this specific fact is going to be flagged up by the media and in various debates running up to 23 June.

Therefore perhaps they should dig out the Anderson Shelters and Tin Helmets".

In my opinion I have done every Chairman and Hunt Secretary a great favor in that 'forewarned is forearmed' concerning the inevitable telephone calls and possibly being 'doorstepped' by the press.

This referendum is going to degenerate into the dirtiest electoral campaign on record and every possible means, of any group either In or Out is going to be brought into play.

The spin on hunting being subsidised and such as the existence of Food Banks and the inability of young people to afford a decent house etc is going to be writ large in the coming days and weeks.

I bet every single hunt listed has had a 'heads up' in the preceding 24 hours and what ever is in store from the Press and Media. I hope they remember who put their coordinates on the radar screen.

Finally whether In or Out at the end of the day, when all this stuff about Hunt's and Wealthy Landowners being subsidised, post the election the whole population will have become aware of the feature. That will be an issue that will cause howls of anger, if we stay in the EU and the situation continues.

Forward thinking and preparation is essential.

 

[Goldenstar]

Whatever you think about the financial support the EU gives farmers you can't blame people for claiming the money the scheme allows them to .
The fault lies with the those who set up the system not those claiming the money .

 

[FemelleReynard]

As others have said, I can't see why it's an issue that hunts are claiming BPS payments? As previously mentioned, to claim BPS the claimant is required to jump through a large number of hoops and to undertake often onerous management techniques which the EU have put in to place. If the hunts are working to these stipulations, then there is absolutely no reason that they shouldn't be entitled to claim the payments. They are doing a very important job in preserving our environment and protecting our habitats, just like the farmers are, the only difference being that one is called a hunt, and the other a farm!

I take your point that it might cause a media frenzy if it comes out that Government and Tax Payers are 'paying' hunts, but I can't see them being able to stop this if the hunts can prove that they're making a valid claim (as in they're an active farmer, have relevant greening/countryside stewardship requirements in place, abiding by the 3 crop rule etc etc), without them stopping all direct payments to farmers?

Likewise, as mentioned in this weeks Farmers Weekly, if we leave Europe, funding for farmers is likely to continue in some guise, so I highly doubt it will make much difference if we are in or out.

 

[Countryman]

The spin on hunting being subsidised and such as the existence of Food Banks and the inability of young people to afford a decent house etc is going to be writ large in the coming days and weeks.

.

If only! Actually hunting ought to be subsidised or at the very least not treated for tax purposes as a profit-making business, as they currently are, because they are not - in reality they're certainly 'non-profit' organisations and possibly even charities!

But hundreds of thousands of people, clubs, organisations and anyone with a bit of land gets this. It's not a question of hunts being subsidised.

 

[Judgemental]

But hundreds of thousands of people, clubs, organisations and anyone with a bit of land gets this. It's not a question of hunts being subsidised.

Indeed 132,000 out of a population of 65,000,000 where's the equality in that.

Plainly the EU is for the have's as opposed to the have not's and the associated aristocratic inherited estates.

Which when fully distilled, receive 82% of the total Benefits/Entitlements paid by Brussels or 50,000 bearing in mind tenants have to pay 83% of their Euros to the titled estates.

 

[Countryman]

Indeed 132,000 out of a population of 65,000,000,000 where's the equality in that.

Plainly the EU is for the have's as opposed to the have not's and the associated aristocratic inherited estates. Which when fully distilled, receive 82% of the total monies paid by Brussels or 50,000 bearing in mind tenants have to pay 83% of their Euros to the titled estates.

JM you seem to be taking issue not with the subsidies per se, but with the system of land ownership in this country - which is a whole other discussion!

 

[Judgemental]

I take your point that it might cause a media frenzy if it comes out that Government and Tax Payers are 'paying' hunts, but I can't see them being able to stop this if the hunts can prove that they're making a valid claim (as in they're an active farmer, have relevant greening/countryside stewardship requirements in place, abiding by the 3 crop rule etc etc), without them stopping all direct payments to farmers?

Quite and that is the fact that will swing the Leave Campaign to Brexit.

I guess 45,000,000 million will vote and I can't see the majority continuing to sign up to money being paid to packs of hounds by the EU.

I gather all the Blue Foxes in the Conservative party had no idea that the money was being paid, much less the rank and file of the Labour party.

 

[Judgemental]

JM you seem to be taking issue not with the subsidies per se, but with the system of land ownership in this country - which is a whole other discussion!

I have no particular issue with land ownership as it stands, save for the poor down trodden tenants, paying 83% of their entitlements to titled folk, who have no need for the money and generally, have simply inherited the land. Land none of them could go out and buy or have ever earnt enough money of their own volition or imaginative enterprise but relied upon historical inheritance.

Money that would be better spend on Hospitals, Schools, Housing etc etc.

However in the majority of cases, tenants are their own worst enemies, because they are simply sycophantic toadies and deserve what they get, because they fail to stand up for themselves. Allowing themselves to be manipulated by 'The Parasites', namely agricultural estate agents.

 

[hackneylass2]

'However in the majority of cases, tenants are their own worst enemies, because they are simply sycophantic toadies and deserve what they get, because they fail to stand up for themselves. Allowing themselves to be manipulated by 'The Parasites', namely agricultural estate agents. '

Perhaps because tenants don't want to become homeless, incomeless and reliant on benefits issued much closer to home?

I doubt there will be a huge furore over these legally obtained subsidies.

What I would like to know is this. What system has or will our Govt put in place to replace the EU farming subsidy programme? The silence has been deafening as to the effects of a Brexit to real people and how any losses, such as farm subsidies, would be replaced.

 

[jrp204]

Wow JM, no chip on your shoulder then! We are tenants and whilst we love to have our own land we will never be able to buy it. But, it gives us an opportunity to farm in our own right and gives us security. Our landlord is a retired farmer who son doesn't want to farm. The entitlements are in our name.

 

[popsdosh]

Wow JM, no chip on your shoulder then! We are tenants and whilst we love to have our own land we will never be able to buy it. But, it gives us an opportunity to farm in our own right and gives us security. Our landlord is a retired farmer who son doesn't want to farm. The entitlements are in our name.

Exactly I would love to see JMs figures to justify that claim. JM you live in cloud cuckoo land most of the time it cost a lot more than the rent on an acre of land to finance purchasing it,oh but of course your other prediction was the collapse of agricultural land values something else that will never happen!

 

[honetpot]

I love the idea that landowners are 'titled folk'.
All but a few had to sell off the land to cover death duties, land today is more likely to be owned by the Mormon church, companies that invest for pension/insurance companies, foreign investors, and some colleges and councils still own land.
The bottom line is they all have a balance sheet and whoever invests in buying land or owns wants to make money. Where I live huge amounts of good land has been used to grow crops for bio digesters to produce energy, daily I see the trailer bins taking chopped food to feed them. I think that's wrong but its the law on unintended consequences, producing biofuel is a very good idea.
Covering acres with solar panels, of very good growing land, seems bonkers but the people that own that land if they have a small acreage means they have a guaranteed income for the next 25 years.
If there is a rule, there is a brain somewhere that will exploit it. I have a small amount of acreage and could claim payments but the paperwork involved is enormous and to be honest I do not want them dictating what I do with my home but I can understand why people would do it. I am not titled folk and neither was my stepfather or my brother in law, they worked bloomin hard out on a tractor a dawn and were good at their jobs, what they do in their spare time or what club they are member of should not affect the amount of money they can claim on they land they own or farm.
You have to remember also when farmers were paid to grow ever bigger areas and ripped out hedges to make bigger fields, a lot of the hunts were the only one planting coverts and encouraged saving hedges, and walls. A lot of the meets are based on landmarks that have been there for hundreds of year and survived being tidied up in to nice flat ploughed land by a vested interest in hunting whether be by the tenant or landowner.