Caucasian Shepherd

[Turtlebay69]

I am thinking of buying a Caucasian Shepherd. Has anyone owned one before? I am a very experienced dog owner, and I am looking for a dog that has strong guarding instincts, easy to train - will more or less be working on the yard and through fields with me along with guarding the house and land, and sociable - around horses and other animals. I have been thinking about purchasing a puppy of this breed for a while and I just wanted to hear some experiences of anyone that owns/has owned one?

 

[Patterdale]

I'm married to one?

 

[Turtlebay69]

I'm married to one?

Hahaha Patterdale lucky you ;-) x

 

[s4sugar]

Only experience is stewarding for a friend judging them abroad.
Not dogs to argue with and not sociable - very much one person and their flock & woe betide anyone else. ( & these were supposedly socialised show dogs)
A couple of friends in the USA keep them as flock guardians in bear country but neither are planning to replace them with similar as they previously had a Kom & a Pyrenean and found them easier to have around & just as effective.

 

[Turtlebay69]

Only experience is stewarding for a friend judging them abroad.
Not dogs to argue with and not sociable - very much one person and their flock & woe betide anyone else. ( & these were supposedly socialised show dogs)
A couple of friends in the USA keep them as flock guardians in bear country but neither are planning to replace them with similar as they previously had a Kom & a Pyrenean and found them easier to have around & just as effective.

This is really useful information. I was also looking at Pyreneans too. It's so interesting to hear different opinions. Thankyou!

 

[Booboos]

Loads of Pyreneans near here if that's of interest to you. Beautiful looking dogs, massive in size, very loyal to their owners but they need an experienced handler because they have very strong guarding instincts.

 

[cellie]

Have you considered Australian shepherd ,I have one he s wonderful.They are great guard dogs but also loving and very loyal to immediate family.They are also very intelligent and highly trainable.http://s252.photobucket.com/user/celebre1/media/axeloneyear005.jpg.html

 

[1rocky1]

think joss stone as one , after here ordeal, look nice dogs .

 

[Dobiegirl]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/cosgb/?fref=ts

This is a group about Caucasian Ovcharkas and people who own them, I have spoken to someone who knows the breed and for what you want they also recommended a Pyrenean who is of a more even temperment or a Maremma although they are a rare breed.

 

[1ST1]

We had one. He first came to us when he was only 40 days old and grew up with our old GSD who was as gentle as a lamb. He used to be a very friendly and sociable puppy. But then, when he was about 15 months or so, he turned aggressive almost overnight and without any reason. It began with aggression over food and then escalated rapidly. He was transformed into a very terrifying beast (weighing far more than me). Although he was never aggressive towards me and my husband, we were forced to keep him on a leash at all times as we were living on a livery yard with kids, other dogs etc. In the end, we had to gift him to a farmer with land in a remote location and later heard that he became even more aggressive and could be controlled only by the farmer and noone else.
So I do not recommend them as a breed as any others I have seen around are always the same (aggressive and independent). They are also incredibly strong so hard to control really. They can also be very dangerous for other dogs in the vicinity.

 

[PorkChop]

Sorry I have no experience of this breed - however from your list of wants there are a few breeds that fit the bill - I would highly recommend a Rottweiler!

 

[Alexart]

I have one, called Bear, he'll be 3 in august, all I can say he's totally different from any of your normal breeds of dog, no matter how much experience you have with other breeds they are just so different! They are far far more independent for starters, not food orientated at all so forget trying to use treats or praise as a motivator, very strong willed and will only do something if he deems it neccesary or in the intrest of the saftey of his family so forget a breed that will want to go for long walks, do obedience and play fetch!! It took us ages to get what I would call basics with a normal dog and even then you can see he's not really intrested as it has nothing to do with what his instincts tell him - they were bred to be totally independant of people, Bears recall is only if he wants to, sit is an occasional thing, he learnt very quickly how to get out of doing something he doesn't want - we shut him in a stable when we have visitors who don't like dogs etc - he rolls over on his back and acts as a dead weight now and even draging him is not an option at around 8 stone, he's getting better but he has had to be put in a stallion stable as he's eaten his way through one stable door and a kennel door too!!!

I would not have one as a pet, they are a working breed full stop, we used to keep Bear indoors up until he was about 6 months old, he put his head through 2 windows trying to bark at the postman so he then moved outside, he also couldn't cope with the heat indoors even though we have stone floors and no heating, he didn't like not being able to see around him either! Their guarding instinct is very strong, Bear sat outside my bedroom door from 12 weeks old onwards as he could see all of our yard, he didn't move all night!! He now roams our 12 acres 24/7 and does as he pleases, most of the day he spends sitting on the front steps or in the middle of the yard to watch the gate even if it's blowing a gale and pouring rain he doesn't seem to notice, at night that's when he's at his most active he patrols the fields and woofs at most things - so not a dog to have if you have neighbors as they are very loud!!

They're not the sort of dog that will really play with others, we have 3 ridgebacks and 2 terriers and Bear likes to play with one of the terriers as he grew up with her although his idea of play is to pick her up by the tail and fling her or sit on her if she starts to yap at him!, he does occasionally chase a ball a few feet and wander off with it, he has a collection pile of things he's found, he's very good at finding lost horse shoes in the mud, so a bonus there! But he ignores for the most part our other dogs, he would probaly eat the neighbors dog if he could reach it as he hates it, he's fine with other dogs away from his turf and ignores livestock unless it comes up to our fence then he'll charge them. We do have horses who he won't let near 'his' yard nor does he like our red deer and will chase them away, he only seems to want to guard us, he does get on with our cats though and shows no intrest in the chickens so not a high prey drive.
I know someone else locally who has one and his is very much the same, he actually bit a delivery guy though as he made a sudden move towards the guys wife over their gate with the thing that you sign on, so you need to be very aware of what they are upto which can be hard as their body language isn't quite the same as other dogs and they don't give much away with their facial expressions either - think large fluffy rabbit that looks half asleep!

You need 6 foot fences too really or certainly higher than normal as they can jump and I'd say they probably would if needs be, so think very carefully before you get one, where abouts are you as you're welcome to come and meet ours, there are a few other CS owners about so well worth meeting a few before you buy and make sure you find a good breeder - there are only a few breeders who breed in the UK thank goodness so you may have to import.

 

[Koen]

I have to say we are delighted with ours.

We didn't intentionally go out looking for him he was offered as a six month old as a replacement when our large bitch passed away rather suddenly from snake bite. We needed a replacement and agreed as we were assured he would do the job as well.

He's absolutely gorgeous. Think extremely large teddy bear with incredible agility and energy. They have these strange deep set little eyes with fixed eyelids in their enormous heads and are alarmingly expressive with both them and their heads. Ours had both his ears cut low this is how he arrived.

All of what Im going to say is of course anecdotal evidence but taken together with others here it might have some value.

I had to look up the breed after he arrived as I had no clue what it was we were getting. The owner who is involved with shipping had him and four litter mates sent over from Russia on one of his ships. One of his best customers had offered them to him as a gift. He had no clue about the breed either, other than that it was meant to be a good guard dog.

He settled in immediately. No stress. He was ours and we were his and that was that. He completely ignored the other dog we had, a very old boy who has since died. One sniff and he was part of the furniture.

He isn't much of a greedy guts and for such a large animal, quite a delicate eater in fact. He eats well enough but isn't overly fussed and allows us to take bones chews whatever straight from his tremendous jaws. I have yet to hear him growl.

Barking starts at sunset but he doesn't bark for no reason. There is always something however. Feral dogs, wild pigs monkeys, deer but especialy people all set him off. It's a nice deep bark, reassuring and easy on the ear luckily. If I have enough I go out and look see and whistle in a certain way and he stops no matter what. If something different appears he will start off again but as soon as I go and look do my whistle he stops again. Sometimes he sticks his huge head in the window and barks just to make sure I've got the message. He is fine with whatever it is he's barking at if Im fine with it. Then he shuts up. Quite a smart dog for the guardian breeds, subtle and biddable, he learnt to sit, down and stay in just 15 minutes no food. But if he's working (being protective) then all the lessons fly out the window, so it's a sort of game for him which he likes to play if he's not busy working, if you stop he licks your toes.

He is very huggable too and easy to handle. On the lead he bounces rather than walks and keeps very close.

After a year we found a tiny Jack Russell puppy to join the team he is a short legged little jack in the box on the go all day. He was immediately accepted and doted upon. The JR throws himself at him bodily and he either ignores him or rough houses with him picking him up as Alexart mentioned or dragging him around by one leg. We had to remove the JR's collar because he would use that to pick him up and run off. He doesn't hurt the JR at all and the JR cant get enough which is lovely as it takes off the pressure keeping the little one busy. Just this morning I saw the JR jump right inside his throat. All he did was open his eyes wide and look puzzled. He also pins down the JR with one paw as a way to keep him still while he gnaws his belly. So good with new small puppies though probably the tougher sort is best.

In my research on the breed I discovered there are a few strains of this dog. Some are more work orientated than others. Ours seems to be the working number. Huge frame but light. Extremely athletic, he can jump a six foot bank from a stand still, he will go over the top of anything or down it rather than around it and he can run like the wind. This all comes as a surprise as he looks a heavy tall mastiff type dog but in fact isn't. Very energetic too. The less working types tend to be shorter and seemingly heavier wider than tall, more massive less athletic or active.

I don't know if there is a showing number but I suppose these latter dogs belong to this group as well.

He has a lovely coat thick curly and easy. Once a year it all falls out in big chunks. Not much of an under coat and easily brushed out. The rest slightly coarse very thick, wonderful full tail feathering. He doesn't need constant brushing and is never washed so his coat is slightly oily but completely weather proof and never matted.

He prefers sleeping out under the stars and completely ignores rain and cold. I once surprised him by turning the hose on him on a hot day for a treat and he leaned into it with pleasure. In fact he never seems cold or too hot.

Excellent guard dog, no one would come uninvited onto our yard. Not overly aggressive either. Once I've seen who it is he's fine. We had painters in and he went mad but he relaxed as soon as I arrived and let them in. He did though keep watching over proceedings moving right around the house steadily as they did in each stage of the work over the two weeks, not leaving them alone for a second. When they did the roof he sat on top of the bank to get a good view.

Strange dogs he finds very upsetting and reacts with extreme anger. These are feral dogs here, I suppose he sees them as wolves.

He is a dominant alfa male with everyone but the household, including maids, gardener and everyone else. With us he will roll onto his back completely submissive, he also does that for the JR. For strangers he makes himself very large, spreading his shoulders standing on tip toes and sticks his stiffly held head in the air, keeping his distance.

I love him. He went through various names and responds to them all but finally we all managed to settle on Ceddy with the odd Freddy.

I think a fantastic working dog, maybe not for taking to the park to play with other dogs but a solid dependable sort at his job and smart. We live on a farm Im not sure how well they would do elsewhere.

Im sure there are minuses to these dogs but I've yet to find any. Seems healthy and sound....

 

[loopiesteff]

Saw one doing flyball the other week! Never seen one before! They look stunning!

 

[Dry Rot]

I opened this thread with a faint sneer on my lips! Well, I was wrong. Excellent and informative. I was under the impression that these dogs had to be reared on a sheep, basically imprinted, to do the job. I can also see that there will be different strains, some more suitable for some jobs and some not really suitable for any. Isn't that the way with working dogs?

Thanks again. I hope I'll be reading more.

 

[Koen]

Saw one doing flyball the other week! Never seen one before! They look stunning!

Ha ha, yes after reading this I went outdoors with a large hairy rope ball that the JR drags around. I surprised Cedders with a throw. With a smart sideways reflex action chomp he caught it then spat it out like he had accidentally swallowed a moth. I picked it up and tried again, this time he trotted off to investigate something the moment I threw. Not hooked obviously. Undeterred I called him back and tried again, asking him to sit and expect the throw this time. He did gladly throwing high fives with his paw as he waited with cocked head, he caught the ball but so lightly it was rather like how you might catch a new born chick that was falling off a table.

Not much of the fly ball!

There is though definitely something German Shepard about him, wafting in the background somewhere. Least said soonest mended but apparently it was Stalin who introduced GS into this breed at some point. When I first saw Freddy I thought he looked like an old fashioned longhaired German Shepherd on steroids, blown up out of all proportion, he was six months old so already twice the size of any GS. Also something large wolf/hound like. It's an interesting mix the massive exterior and athleticism. The GS seems to be there like when I leashed him for the first time, he thought it was the most natural thing in the world looking at me for further instruction. One step and he followed and that was that. Same with teaching him to sit, I just moved my hand over the back of his head saying "sit", he reversed and sat. End of story.

He definitely wants to please, intelligent and eager all in a soft gentle unpushy way unlike a GS. This sits neatly, though some might find this worrying besides a quite ruthless determination when it comes to things he doesn't agree with, unexpected strangers or wild dogs showing up.

After we got him I became a bit worried the more I read about the breeds reputation. So I decided to fence off the front from the back yard so we had an option should he prove unmanageable with visitors. The kennels are also in the back, a nice big airy building though we've never used them for dogs. They were built by the original owner and we've had assorted interesting livestock in there. None proved durable as interests waned and rapidly moved on. Anyway this all proved a waste of time because as I said before because he accepts strangers the minute I/we do. From raging inferno to stiff acceptance in a blink of an eyelid. Usually its immediately after I've said 'hello" in my nicest greeting voice.

Having said all that he isn't allowed to go out with the horses, I don't trust him not to take out anything along the way. Even though we live in quite an isolated area there is always someone up to something, hang gliding, hiking or herb collectors even in the week. I have no doubt he would prove very difficult because there isn't that instant recall. Its all a bit explosive.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Some really informative replies about the breed. I have to say the thought of one doing flyball is interesting . I posted a little while ago about a Caucasian shepherd x that had been lost, and the efforts being made to trap the dog as it wouldn't come in the house. Reading the above makes me think that that poor dog was only trying to live as it preferred and owners who don't understand the breed were trying to make it something it wasn't.

 

[moppett]

I'd never heard of a caucasian shepherd dog before this thread, but just came across these pictures of one and beautiful! http://www.boredpanda.com/animal-ch...ction_type_map=["og.likes"]&action_ref_map=[]

 

[TrasaM]

Interesting thread. I assume that these are similar to or derived from the Anatolian shepherd dog ?

 

[Goldenstar]

Forgive me asking but are they the same or similar to the Karabash

 

[Spring Feather]

I'm guessing they are Ovcharkas?

 

[Alec Swan]

.......? I am a very experienced dog owner, and I am looking for a dog that has strong guarding instincts, easy to train - .......?

All so often those dogs with strong guarding instincts are anything but easy to train. Many of the obscure, or rare, or virtually unheard of breeds, can be incredibly opinionated and selfish. Apart from the novelty of having a dog which few have ever heard of, my honest opinion is that there are already enough breeds of dogs which would fit your criteria very well, and from proven working lines, which will mean that they'll probably be the most tractable, that I would strongly advise against buying what is in effect, an unknown quantity.

I accept that you want the opinions of those who've had dealings with the breed, and with the exception of one which appears to be a paragon of virtue, the rest seem to be difficult at best, and most probably not worth the effort.

Alec.

 

[1rocky1]

Sorry I have no experience of this breed - however from your list of wants there are a few breeds that fit the bill - I would highly recommend a Rottweiler!

i will second that ljr , ones we had was all lovely bless em.

 

[Spring Feather]

All so often those dogs with strong guarding instincts are anything but easy to train. Many of the obscure, or rare, or virtually unheard of breeds, can be incredibly opinionated and selfish. Apart from the novelty of having a dog which few have ever heard of, my honest opinion is that there are already enough breeds of dogs which would fit your criteria very well, and from proven working lines, which will mean that they'll probably be the most tractable, that I would strongly advise against buying what is in effect, an unknown quantity.

I accept that you want the opinions of those who've had dealings with the breed, and with the exception of one which appears to be a paragon of virtue, the rest seem to be difficult at best, and most probably not worth the effort.

Alec.

Alec you've hit the nail on the head. I have 3 livestock guardian dogs, 2 Akbash and 1 Maremma, and they are most definitely not for the faint of heart. Beautifully stunning dogs but they are a law unto themselves. They *need* a job, a real job. I actually can't imagine where in England they would ever find that job. Where I live we have bears and wolves so my lgds have a real job keeping wildlife away from the farm and our livestock. These dogs need acres and acres of room to roam constantly. There's a saying over here; "give an Akbash 100 acres and he'll take 200!" and how true it is. If I lived in the UK there's no way I would have one of these dogs, they're just not suitable IMO. They live outdoors, my dogs would see it as cruelty if I were to try to keep them in the house. They simply do not want to be indoors. That's not the life these dogs have been bred for over the centuries.

Alec is right, they are difficult dogs. They are not wired like other dogs. I know a couple of people who have Caucasian Ovcharkas, and as much as they like their own personal dogs, all have said they will replace them with Maremmas or Akbash next time around. Ovcharkas are the most challenging of all of the LGD breeds and that's probably why they are not used much around these parts. Pyrs and Maremmas are the ones used most around here because they at least have a modicum of domesticity about them. Akbash are primitive to be quite frank, and Ovcharka are known to be simply too much for the needs of most farmers.

One of the worst things about LGDs that I see over here is breeders selling their pups to pet homes. These dogs are NOT pets and should never be put in a pet household. Yes they're great as pups and young dogs, but once they hit 2 years old, look out! That's why the rescue centres over here are full to bursting with these dogs and with little hope that they will be rehomed in a suitable environment. When people meet my dogs they swoon over them but the moment they see them go into action they then realise just what powerful and independent dogs these are and that they are not for puppy-patters.

I don't like to push people in any direction when they ask for advice, I always hope they'll 'get it', but in the case of LGDs I am very vocal about trying my hardest to persuade people against buying one. In the UK there is absolutely no reason at all that I can possibly think of that anyone would need an Ovcharka or an Akbash/Karabash so I urge you to please consider another, more suitable, breed.

 

[Koen]

Forgive me asking but are they the same or similar to the Karabash

No they aren't exactly. Though certainly the Karabash could have played its part in the development of some strains and they in theirs from what I understand.


http://molosserdogs.com/m/articles/view/1205-caucasian-shepherd-dog---kavkazskaya-ovtcharka

 

[Koen]

I agree with Spring feathers in that working dogs are often a pest in non working homes, not even the rarer ones or just the guardian breeds. Their showing derivatives are maybe a better bet if healthy enough though sadly they often aren't.

Personally for example I wouldn't touch even a good strain of working Border Collie, it would drive me to distraction, we don't have sheep and Im not into agility. They are completely mad unless they have a job to do.

Working dogs are bred to work and thus need to do the job or they are no more than a nuisance and end up in the RSPCA before they are even adults.

Turtlebay69 the OP is though after a working domestic and livestock guardian dog and not just a livestock guardian. Pure livestock guardians often only work out if they are left as puppies to imprint on the stock and not "their" humans. The Caucasian ovsharka is not one of those breeds as far as I understand.

The rarer working breeds are a gamble. They often have an extremely limited gene pool in your area so you don't have the option of finding something suitable from a choice of good working lines and healthy. That or they have been hijacked by in many cases Western fanciers and turned into something they never were, that is also mostly something completely useless.

On the other hand and this does and can influence peoples decisions quite a lot these days many of the more popular established traditional domestic working breeds have been so destroyed by the show ring they simply no longer come into contention as working dogs. The guardian breeds have a definite problem with this including "foreign" established breeds. Those for the dual purpose domestic/livestock guardian breeds are particularly bad. The English mastiff comes to mind. The other extreme is perhaps those unpredictable overly aggressive curs in some shape, form or other. Pots luck but with good handling could be the ticket too of course.

If it's your thing it's not mine particularly as I have other more pressing interests but devoting yourself to truly extensive research of working lines e.t.c and importing can certainly be interesting and rewarding. A few field trips to dramatically beautiful isolated places, it could be fun too.

We on the other hand took a gamble and it paid off, the working abilities in this case were not unknown, though. I did know for a certainty I didn't want a useless pedigree mutt that wouldn't be able to pay its way in vet bills alone never mind the heartache.

Yes most definitely thinking out the box is often a good way forward. A Caucasian ovsharka could in fact be ideal, a boerboel (eyebrow raised slightly) any of the rarer dogs included.

PS- our last dog was an imported boerboel and she was everything we could have wished for, she did the job. An extremely athletic and very heavy muscular alfa female, far too large and masculine for breeding but worth her weight in gold, heart of gold too. She came from a farm, also without a pedigree. We had known exactly what we were getting as we knew the people and dogs involved for a very long time.

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm wondering if I'm the only one who's surprised to find that Koen has a totally different and distinctly opposing level of experience, to everyone else. Perhaps it's just that here, in the UK, we're a collection of idiots. Not only should we be opening our lives to dogs which most consider, and often through their own bitter experience, to be totally unsuitable animals for the average home, but it seems that none here can ride a horse, either!

Come on Koen, be honest now, you're a secret Ragwort expert too, aren't you? :clap:

Alec.

 

[TrasaM]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hepherd-lion-hunter-dogs-woodland-attack.html

And to balance it out.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...re-genetic-condition-overcome-fear-world.html


Stunning looking dogs.. Wish I had an excuse to own one

 

[Alec Swan]

Not one, but two quotes, and both from the mail. I'm sorry TrasaM, but there's no available evidence to support any single report that the mail has ever printed. That's not one!!

Alec.

 

[TrasaM]

Not one, but two quotes, and both from the mail. I'm sorry TrasaM, but there's no available evidence to support any single report that the mail has ever printed. That's not one!!

Alec.

you saying the daily mail is unreliable ! What what..foreign dogs over here causing havoc !