ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I still think we are agreeing about metal shoes with wedges being a no, aren't we?
Caudal heel pain. Experiences please!
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sbloom
Well-Known Member
They do use some metal shoes. We have three models here, firstly:
Open heel shoes, usually but not always metal
Rejected by the next two models:
Trimming to the widest part of the heel, focusing on getting the heels down to promote function. May still use open heel shoes.
Correcting HPA by raising and supporting the heel. Shoes unlikely to be wholly metal but not excluded.
So no, metal shoes may still be part of the solution, and wedges near,y a,ways are, if HPA is compromised.
Open heel shoes, usually but not always metal
Rejected by the next two models:
Trimming to the widest part of the heel, focusing on getting the heels down to promote function. May still use open heel shoes.
Correcting HPA by raising and supporting the heel. Shoes unlikely to be wholly metal but not excluded.
So no, metal shoes may still be part of the solution, and wedges near,y a,ways are, if HPA is compromised.
Boulty
Well-Known Member
https://www.facebook.com/markjfarrier/
May be of interest to the OP / to other posters in the thread. I'm personally in favour of barefoot wherever possible but where not for whatever reason then this sort of thing looks an intriguing alternative.
If you DO find soft tissue damage / injury on MRI & wish to reconsider barefoot take a look at https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/?m=1 for an idea of possible success rates (last version of the long term ongoing study I saw had roughly 80% success rate of return to work at same level as before lameness or above) or https://www.fromthegrounduprehab.com/. (Disclaimer: I sent my chronically low grade lame horse to Rockley & it saved his life & gave me about 4 yrs of him being in a decent level of work. I also know Krista who runs from the ground up, her horse also went to Rockley & her knowledge vastly outstrips my own... I don't have direct experience of Mark but a friend of a friend with a sound understanding of biomechanics uses him & her horse appears to be improving in soundness)
May be of interest to the OP / to other posters in the thread. I'm personally in favour of barefoot wherever possible but where not for whatever reason then this sort of thing looks an intriguing alternative.
If you DO find soft tissue damage / injury on MRI & wish to reconsider barefoot take a look at https://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/?m=1 for an idea of possible success rates (last version of the long term ongoing study I saw had roughly 80% success rate of return to work at same level as before lameness or above) or https://www.fromthegrounduprehab.com/. (Disclaimer: I sent my chronically low grade lame horse to Rockley & it saved his life & gave me about 4 yrs of him being in a decent level of work. I also know Krista who runs from the ground up, her horse also went to Rockley & her knowledge vastly outstrips my own... I don't have direct experience of Mark but a friend of a friend with a sound understanding of biomechanics uses him & her horse appears to be improving in soundness)
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Sorry SB I'm completely falling to understand what you mean is good or bad. I'll try reading the pointers but they're Facebook and it makes no sense to me where to find an explanation of what they are actually doing in a string of posts. Is there a proper menu based website anywhere that you know of?
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ponyparty
Well-Known Member
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
I think I understand the concept, as in essence, they are both indications of a weakened structure at the back of the hoof. However, I'm still not convinced having looked at the websites of both ED and PES, that you can manage both exactly the same as so much depend on the cause. If the strategy is ton increase caudal function then I completely agree but how to do it would vary.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Apologies, wasn't my intention, however I also am not intending to simply say what is wrong and what is right, I'm talking about the debate and where it's currently going.
1. So the traditional model is almost 100% open heel metal shoes, studs, road nails, wedges, pads, but open heel shoes are the baseline. Some of the more progressive farriers will be trimming to the widest part of the heel but not all, as evidenced by the numbers of narrow underrun heels.
2. Next we have the more progressive model which DOES trim to the widest part of the heel in order to get the heels to the ground and make them function better. This may be barefoot, it may be shod, in open heel or other types of shoes such as the Duplos. Heel function is the focus, anything else is probably secondary. They will probably focus on a heel first landing as a test of success and would almost never recommend wedges, believing they crush the heels. Hell I've said the same.
3. Finally we have these "new" models which focus on HPA, which is kind of what model number 1 focuses on, supposedly, yet it fails again and again. PES see, I think, 85% of horses with negative HPA and they view it as a prolapse, caused by open heel shoes. They don't ignore heel function but it's not their priority and it isn't achieved by trimming to the widest point. Though some are barefoot, they use mostly composite shoes, designing and printing their own in some cases, as well as perforated pads, and using fillers they bring the whole back of the hoof into contact with the shoes, nothing like regular bar shoes.
They usually work from x-ray and focus very closely on HPA and biomechanics of the whole body, limb alignment and look to that to see if they are making progress. If the HPA is broken back they will almost certainly use wedges.
They are very anti shoe-making as something farriers should do, in terms of blacksmithing skills and metal shoes, and believe that the focus should shift away from that 100% and onto hoof and overall locomotive function.
I think model 3 is very interesting, I know Mark Johnson, as linked to above fairly well, and was gutted when I finally met him face to face and we didn't have a chance to chat. I respect his work hugely and was hoping to see what he thought of PES and The Equine Documentalist. I should warn anyone hoping to use him that his book is normally full to overflowing!
I hope that explains more clearly?
tallyho!
Following a strict mediterranean diet...
Great explanation sbloom, thank you! I genuinely think we are on the same lines but using different parts of P1-P3 to think of the hoof structure. I tend to focus and think of it more in terms of palmar angle which TED does talk about in his blog on the subject which I enjoyed reading. https://www.theequinedocumentalist.com/post/the-truth-about-hoof-pastern-axis
Prolapse when PES talk about it must refer to the digital cushion itself - so now I can see that contraction/collapsed heels are the same except one is where the shoes just keep winding up the pressure like a vice; the other is where shoe provides no function whatsoever, and eventually the caudal structures just collapse through the open heel of the shoe.
All exacerbated by poor nutritional support too in most cases, I would assume.
All very good reading.
Prolapse when PES talk about it must refer to the digital cushion itself - so now I can see that contraction/collapsed heels are the same except one is where the shoes just keep winding up the pressure like a vice; the other is where shoe provides no function whatsoever, and eventually the caudal structures just collapse through the open heel of the shoe.
All exacerbated by poor nutritional support too in most cases, I would assume.
All very good reading.