CDJ Eliminated??

I had no idea what sensitive skin some horses' have until I read about people's experiences on this thread. I had always assumed that the rider would have had to make a mistake with a leg aid for it to happen.
 
mule said:
I had no idea what sensitive skin some horses' have until I read about people's experiences on this thread. I had always assumed that the rider would have had to make a mistake with a leg aid for it to happen.
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when you've (as in one, not you specifically ;) ) only had the tougher skinned variety it's easy to look down your nose at the hairy patches left on horses after clipping etc as having something to hide about what kind of treatment they get... while there are definitely some people who are a bit rough with their legs it really is incredibly easy to rub a bald - or worse - spot on some horses very quickly without doing anything untoward at all.
 
milliepops said:
when you've (as in one, not you specifically ;) ) only had the tougher skinned variety it's easy to look down your nose at the hairy patches left on horses after clipping etc as having something to hide about what kind of treatment they get... while there are definitely some people who are a bit rough with their legs it really is incredibly easy to rub a bald - or worse - spot on some horses very quickly without doing anything untoward at all.
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I wonder does breed come in to it? Mine have all had a dollop of ID in them.
 
mule said:
itive skin some horses' have until I read about people's experiences on this thread. I had always assumed that the rider would have had to make a mistake with a leg aid for it to happen.
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I've marked a pony before with a boot but I've never marked one with a spur, pony was a connie who when clipped marked easily.
 
milliepops said:
it just smacks of superiority from this angle... what different outcome would you have predicted, say, from today's results?

Do you think Isabel actually can't ride or Cosmo is a kickalong dobbin?
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i don`t think superiority was in anyone`s mind, certainly not mine, but since the idea was suggested it would be interesting to see what difference there would have been, if any

i can`t comment on i werth she does not appeal to me as a rider, and why would anyone suggest cosmo is a dobbin?
 
mule said:
I wonder does breed come in to it? Mine have all had a dollop of ID in them.
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my personal experience is that the finer coated WBs and TBs are a PITA for it. My welsh has the hide of a rhino. My partbred could get baldy spots when her winter (clipped) coat was getting brittle. So I think breeding probably does have quite an influence. My new TB get cuts and grazes just rolling in the field whereas Kira got down and rolled on the cobblestones of an old stable apparently without even feeling it!
 
milliepops said:
my personal experience is that the finer coated WBs and TBs are a PITA for it. My welsh has the hide of a rhino. My partbred could get baldy spots when her winter (clipped) coat was getting brittle. So I think breeding probably does have quite an influence. My new TB get cuts and grazes just rolling in the field whereas Kira got down and rolled on the cobblestones of an old stable apparently without even feeling it!
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Cobblestones 😂 She sounds like a character.
 
i had horses years years a go who had hair rubbed from the boot friction.

but have not noticed it in recent years, perhaps my legs are stiller now perhaps

some horse have have rounder barrel bodies and some are flatter sided, which might contribute to rubbed hair
 
My anglo-arab has tissue paper skin and very fine fur. Her winter coat is thin enough that she's never needed to be clipped (even when we were hacking up to three hours and having 45 min lessons that we hacked to). She needs a sheepskin cover on her girth and I have to watch what boots I wear. Those spur rests are a complete no-go and proud seams are an issue too.

Ester's pally is by the same arab stallion so I'd love to know if she's as sensitive too, or has the dam added some 'tougher skin' genes?
 
milliepops said:
my personal experience is that the finer coated WBs and TBs are a PITA for it. My welsh has the hide of a rhino. My partbred could get baldy spots when her winter (clipped) coat was getting brittle. So I think breeding probably does have quite an influence. My new TB get cuts and grazes just rolling in the field whereas Kira got down and rolled on the cobblestones of an old stable apparently without even feeling it!
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My welsh B used to like getting down and rolling on the gravel drive. It was quite coarse gravel as well, the stuff would have been agony for a human to walk across barefoot.

My current welshie seems to have spots where the skin seems brittle and spots where it isnt and seems to prefer sleeping on concrete to sleeping on the nice thick shavings bed I provide

the last warmblood I had was utterly gorgeous but had skin like paper, a leather girth caused sores every time even when it was butter soft and scrupulously clean, couldn't use a cotton girth either! ended up with one of those old fashioned string girths or a prolite girth sleeve.
 
tristar said:
i had horses years years a go who had hair rubbed from the boot friction.

but have not noticed it in recent years, perhaps my legs are stiller now perhaps
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i think these days lots of people have boots with more detail - soft boots that wrinkle more, suede inners, spur rests etc which are all points of friction.
My old fashioned plan leather tall boots are the best I have for thin skinned horses.
 
she has issues with girth rubs (big belly/forward groove) but not anywhere else (welshxtb ish dam)
My first experience was the chestnut arab we had on loan, big barrel, massive walk and a rubbish saddle and would rub the whole length of your calf just walk hacking- hence the high polished boots necessity. A better saddle did help a bit but his walk didn't get on with my back well at all.
 
tristar said:
i had horses years years a go who had hair rubbed from the boot friction.

but have not noticed it in recent years, perhaps my legs are stiller now perhaps

some horse have have rounder barrel bodies and some are flatter sided, which might contribute to rubbed hair
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My very barrel-like, deep bodied part bred welsh is incredibly easy to leave rub marks on when she is clipped. She’s oniy 15hh, but my legs don’t even come to the bottom of her belly as she is so deep.
My much more sensitive skinned sports horse, who is the same height, never has a rub on her. My leg sits much more ‘round’ her due to her being what I consider a normal bodied horse.

Due to having a slightly more unstable left ankle now due to it being broken so many times, I don’t ride in spurs. Interestingly, it’s the left side of my horse that gets the most bald rub when she is clipped, so I definitely have more movement in that foot/leg.
 
conniegirl said:
Your opinion is clearly based on sanctimonious ignorance, misinformation and a holier than thou attitude. Have you even ridden a dressage test above elementary level?

all my horses/ponies respond to very light leg aids with or without spurs, 90% of my schooling is done without spurs, I only reach for them when schooling has reached such a level that precision is needed. basic forward is achieved way before precision is needed (like years before)

you've taken Daffys comment out of context she says she can ride at that level but that it is more precise with spurs, and therefore easier for the horse to understand.

using spurs for forward is what I would expect of a novice rider, using spurs for their true purpose (refinement) takes training and a very very good seat/leg.

I've not used spurs since I has my ankle reconstructed, mainly because that leg is now weak and I do not feel that it is stable enough to use spurs correctly.
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you misunderstand where i am coming from

i have not taken it out of context, i know what daffy means, but the fact they can ride gp movements without spurs shows it can be done

there are other schools of training than comp dressage, and if spurs were not allowed we may not be having this debate, did the spurs draw blood
 
tristar said:
you misunderstand where i am coming from

i have not taken it out of context, i know what daffy means, but the fact they can ride gp movements without spurs shows it can be done

there are other schools of training than comp dressage, and if spurs were not allowed we may not be having this debate, did the spurs draw blood
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There are many other schools and the vast majority of those other schools use spurs at the higher levels for refinement exactly the same way spurs are used in dressage.

Just because it can be done without spurs does not mean it should.
A very dull aid whilst expecting a quick and precise result leads to frustration on the part of the horse.
If I slap a page of typing down in front of you and ask you to correct the error in it, it will take you time and result in frustration, where as if I say there is an error in the 3rd line of the second paragraph, please correct it, then you will complete the task much faster and with a lot less frustration.

if spurs were banned we would likely be having a very similar conversation but it would be about boot rubs. As shown from many posters above it is possible to mark a horse and draw blood without spurs and without force.
 
conniegirl said:
There are many other schools and the vast majority of those other schools use spurs at the higher levels for refinement exactly the same way spurs are used in dressage.

Just because it can be done without spurs does not mean it should.
A very dull aid whilst expecting a quick and precise result leads to frustration on the part of the horse.
If I slap a page of typing down in front of you and ask you to correct the error in it, it will take you time and result in frustration, where as if I say there is an error in the 3rd line of the second paragraph, please correct it, then you will complete the task much faster and with a lot less frustration.

if spurs were banned we would likely be having a very similar conversation but it would be about boot rubs. As shown from many posters above it is possible to mark a horse and draw blood without spurs and without force.
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no because boot rubs are an accepted part of rider leg friction, and as far as know do not draw blood, and certain breeds of horse, ie. big tbs who often walk in a snake like body movement with a huge overtrack move the riders leg more than say a part bred or iberian horse that tend to steps under itself and not move the leg so much.

but the horse is not a page of text it is a living creature and even subject, in my experience to picking up brain waves, ie think canter etc

but whatever school of riding you follow you do not have to use the spurs its a choice.

if tests were adapted to accommodate differing response times and the emphasis was on collection, could it be spurs would not be used and we would not need to waste half the day worrying about blood on horses sides

hope i dont sound too sanctimonious
 
tristar said:
if tests were adapted to accommodate differing response times and the emphasis was on collection, could it be spurs would not be used and we would not need to waste half the day worrying about blood on horses sides
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I understand where you're coming from but I think your argument is misplaced in a discussion about competitive dressage.
For dressage to make a competition where multiple competitors can be judged and scored against a set of criteria and ranked, what you are suggesting would be pretty impossible to achieve.
It's a defined sport, you need to make a new one. If you want to see it at the europeans or olympics then there's some way to go before we can move away from this discussion.
 
milliepops said:
I understand where you're coming from but I think your argument is misplaced in a discussion about competitive dressage.
For dressage to make a competition where multiple competitors can be judged and scored against a set of criteria and ranked, what you are suggesting would be pretty impossible to achieve.
It's a defined sport, you need to make a new one. If you want to see it at the europeans or olympics then there's some way to go before we can move away from this discussion.
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change the goals posts
 
ester said:
she has issues with girth rubs (big belly/forward groove) but not anywhere else (welshxtb ish dam)
My first experience was the chestnut arab we had on loan, big barrel, massive walk and a rubbish saddle and would rub the whole length of your calf just walk hacking- hence the high polished boots necessity. A better saddle did help a bit but his walk didn't get on with my back well at all.
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Yes - forward girth groove and big belly here too.

I know what you mean about the walk and your back too. A 'waddling' walk sets my back off. Thankfully that one wasn't my horse (was lovely though).
 
tristar said:
you bought the subject of carl up, and how nice of you to call anther persons ideas waffle, if i think the use of spurs is not a good thing i am entitled to that opinion.

also i think everyone is aware of carl`s riding ability, why do you feel the need to say it in such a defensive way?
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You clearly have a very active imagination, I was not in the least defensive 😄 and we weren’t actually talking about his riding ability, we were talking about his ability as a trainer if you recall - very different
 
Faracat said:
Yes - forward girth groove and big belly here too.

I know what you mean about the walk and your back too. A 'waddling' walk sets my back off. Thankfully that one wasn't my horse (was lovely though).
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I ride a horse at work who has an incredibly bland walk. No oomph, no bounce just very meh and it really kills my back!
 
tristar said:
no because boot rubs are an accepted part of rider leg friction, and as far as know do not draw blood, and certain breeds of horse, ie. big tbs who often walk in a snake like body movement with a huge overtrack move the riders leg more than say a part bred or iberian horse that tend to steps under itself and not move the leg so much.

but the horse is not a page of text it is a living creature and even subject, in my experience to picking up brain waves, ie think canter etc

but whatever school of riding you follow you do not have to use the spurs its a choice.

if tests were adapted to accommodate differing response times and the emphasis was on collection, could it be spurs would not be used and we would not need to waste half the day worrying about blood on horses sides

hope i dont sound too sanctimonious
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Ive seen blood from boot rubs plenty of times. The mark from the spur is likely the same as a mark from a boot, a function of friction on a big moving warmblood

I choose to use spurs to make things easier for my horse. Spanish riding school, top western riders etc all use spurs to make things easier for the horse to understand, not to cause pain or to reenforce an aid but to make it more precise and thus easier for the horse to understand exactly what you want. It prevents frustration from the horse, makes schooling easier on them as it is easier for them to understand and give me exactly what i want and thus more likely to get the praise they seek.

I suspect i am talking to a closed mind, you do not seem to want to understand the proper purpose of spurs and are happy in your ignorant bubble of spurs being solely for inflicting pain
 
tristar said:
change the goals posts
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how? where? what would the new judging/criteria be? how would you fit it into an olympic sport and the constraints that entails?
I'm interested in your views but with these cryptic 3 word answers it feels a bit hard to see how anything you're suggesting could be implemented in the real world, in our lifetimes?
 
cant believe some if these posts, my old tb cross had a very sensitive skin and the reins and my boots would rub if he had been clipped ....in summer when he wasnt clipped and i was competing and using more rein and more leg he never marked, it was only when he was clipped for winter hacking (i didnt compete in the winter).. it was unfortunate for all of the people who were eliminated, and maybe they will look at the type of spurs they are using in future which wont be a bad thing, but agree that spurs are used to refine the signal to the horse and not a punishment and i used to use them when i competed as well..
 
I think given the number eliminated, we'll probably see some changes. Maybe some will move to spurs with a much bigger ball. I have some I was using on my cob last year. They are huge and I took some stick for it on the forum from some posters who didn't understand, but I bought them deliberately to be as mild as possible while enabling me to make contact with my heel under his round torso.

The bigger the surface area and the freer the rotation, the less chance there is of marking. I predict big balls will become fashionable 😁


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genuine question, what sort of changes do you anticipate?
one eliminated blood in the mouth mid test
One eliminated blood on flank post test
2 (i think?) lameness - they had passed the trot up.

This seems like a mixture of bad luck and coincidence rather than suggesting there's something wrong with the rules to me.
 
ycbm said:
I think given the number eliminated, we'll probably see some changes. Maybe some will move to spurs with a much bigger ball. I have some I was using on my cob last year. They are huge and I took some stick for it on the forum from some posters who didn't understand, but I bought them deliberately to be as mild as possible while enabling me to make contact with my heel under his round torso.

The bigger the surface area and the freer the rotation, the less chance there is of marking. I predict big balls will become fashionable 😁


.
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They weren't all for the blood rule. One was for blood in the mouth when the horse bit its tongue and the other two were lameness during test.
 
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