CDJ withdrawn from paris

splashgirl45 said:
There are some positives from the CDJ thing and that the judges seem to , at last, be marking the more sympathetic riders more correctly. Look at Becky Moody and Lewis Carrier for their better placing recently. If the judges don’t reward the stressed overbent unhappy horses I would hope that they would be ridden in a kinder way ., there is still a long way to go . What I find odd is that all the hate is for dressage and nothing much is said about showjumping, and as for the barrel racing etc in America , I find that pretty upsetting as well
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I suppose at least part of it is that dressage is supposed to be lightness, harmony, ease, communication etc etc. Whereas in its modern form it looks like the opposite and there's lots to criticise on that basis alone. SJ has always had less than harmonious sights and the aim has only ever been to get over the fences. Having said that Collectif pour les Chevaux (I think) has recently posted film of a SJ warmup with a horse going round like this:
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Burnttoast said:
I suppose at least part of it is that dressage is supposed to be lightness, harmony, ease, communication etc etc. Whereas in its modern form it looks like the opposite and there's lots to criticise on that basis alone. SJ has always had less than harmonious sights and the aim has only ever been to get over the fences. Having said that Collectif pour les Chevaux (I think) has recently posted film of a SJ warmup with a horse going round like this:
472495261_3847553005561957_1910401588863317150_n.jpg
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That's horrible😖makes me cringe inside.
 
Miss_Millie said:
It wasn't this photo, the horse was bay/black. The photo was from behind and not great image quality so couldn't see the horse's face. But I'm floored that anyone would share his riding as an example of 'good' in any way, I don't care how 'correct' it is.

Many masks have slipped since CDJ was outed and I'm convinced that the purpose of 'It's Time to Act' was to purport a moral superiority because GB riders were apparently leagues above other countries in terms of welfare - which we know now not to be true.
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It got shut down quick smart right at the time it might have had the opportunity to get things changed. Seems very odd to me.
 
Miss_Millie said:
I don't think she has ever been for the horse - on national television she sidestepped around what CDJ did and instead drolled on about how humans need riding for their mental health.

She moaned about people ruining the Olympics for her because they were talking about the CDJ video all over social media.

She later campaigned for people to 'write letters' on their FB pages about what riding has done for them. As usual, it was all very human-centred with no consideration for the horse's lived experience.

The sport will die a death because people like her who have influence, refuse to take a good look in the mirror and realise how very wrong all of this is.

The sooner it dies, the better.
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I've never liked her based on what people who have had dealings with her have said and what happened to a friends horse sent there to be broken. I've never met her myself, I don't want to.
 
The trouble - or one of the troubles - is that I don't think the 'elite' dressage world realise, or can even comprehend how very much they need to change in order that the horses have a positively lived life; one which they might choose; one which is acceptable to the outside world therefore.

Just going by that photo PH has shared to demonstrate something she perceives to be 'good', it is clear that she (if not most) feels it is acceptable that the horse is (still) being ridden with tension, pressured to contort into what they consider to be a pleasing shape, with the use of at least some degree of force and with the rider at odds with what would be the gentle yet powerful flow of the energy and movement.

If you take away the bridle, spurs, saddle, and anything else the rider can use as leverage and to brace against, the photo would simply fall apart.

In my opinion, there is too little change going on. In other disciplines - SJ and reining for starters - there are people actively competing at fairly high levels with just a neckrope, and softness, creating a willing relationship with their horse - sometimes never using a bridle at all, even in the beginning. It can be done.

The dressage world as a whole seems to be going about things the wrong way around - many seem to be trying to find a way or ways of just making it look less obvious how they are going about things, rather than having an epiphany and then a complete overhaul of everything, looking at things from the horses' point of view. The look of the end goal and the way the horses are trained to get there needs to change. And they're not getting it on the whole. That is the only way dressage (and any other time a horse is 'used' for human gain) can ever become truly acceptable in my opinion, if it is a life the horse would truly choose to live compared to a wild and free one with no human requirements taken from them.
 
PurpleSpots said:
The trouble - or one of the troubles - is that I don't think the 'elite' dressage world realise, or can even comprehend how very much they need to change in order that the horses have a positively lived life; one which they might choose; one which is acceptable to the outside world therefore.

Just going by that photo PH has shared to demonstrate something she perceives to be 'good', it is clear that she (if not most) feels it is acceptable that the horse is (still) being ridden with tension, pressured to contort into what they consider to be a pleasing shape, with the use of at least some degree of force and with the rider at odds with what would be the gentle yet powerful flow of the energy and movement.

If you take away the bridle, spurs, saddle, and anything else the rider can use as leverage and to brace against, the photo would simply fall apart.

In my opinion, there is too little change going on. In other disciplines - SJ and reining for starters - there are people actively competing at fairly high levels with just a neckrope, and softness, creating a willing relationship with their horse - sometimes never using a bridle at all, even in the beginning. It can be done.

The dressage world as a whole seems to be going about things the wrong way around - many seem to be trying to find a way or ways of just making it look less obvious how they are going about things, rather than having an epiphany and then a complete overhaul of everything, looking at things from the horses' point of view. The look of the end goal and the way the horses are trained to get there needs to change. And they're not getting it on the whole. That is the only way dressage (and any other time a horse is 'used' for human gain) can ever become truly acceptable in my opinion, if it is a life the horse would truly choose to live compared to a wild and free one with no human requirements taken from them.
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I wholeheartedly agree.
I would also say that knowing personally abuse done by a certain Olympic rider who is now set high on a pedestal because her horse looks 'harmonious' with his rider [ in fact I realise I know 2 that fall into this category]! I despair of modern dressage . Money, prestige, adulation all causes humans to forget anything but getting to the 'highest pinnacle ' of their sport - whatever the means . And horses suffer for it .
 
MissMay said:
I struggle to understand how Anabelle Pidgley moved over to this yard ( I know she is with the son) as she seems to really love and care for her horses.
To be in this environment doesn't make sense
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Very ambitious and lost her trainer when Charlotte had to step back. No point in spending all that money on a string of proven dressage horses if you haven't got someone guiding you at GP level.
 
SEL said:
Very ambitious and lost her trainer when Charlotte had to step back. No point in spending all that money on a string of proven dressage horses if you haven't got someone guiding you at GP level.
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AP was already moving between Europe and UK for training with Catherine Dufour long before the CDJ thing happened
 
PurpleSpots said:
The trouble - or one of the troubles - is that I don't think the 'elite' dressage world realise, or can even comprehend how very much they need to change in order that the horses have a positively lived life; one which they might choose; one which is acceptable to the outside world therefore.

Just going by that photo PH has shared to demonstrate something she perceives to be 'good', it is clear that she (if not most) feels it is acceptable that the horse is (still) being ridden with tension, pressured to contort into what they consider to be a pleasing shape, with the use of at least some degree of force and with the rider at odds with what would be the gentle yet powerful flow of the energy and movement.

If you take away the bridle, spurs, saddle, and anything else the rider can use as leverage and to brace against, the photo would simply fall apart.

In my opinion, there is too little change going on. In other disciplines - SJ and reining for starters - there are people actively competing at fairly high levels with just a neckrope, and softness, creating a willing relationship with their horse - sometimes never using a bridle at all, even in the beginning. It can be done.

The dressage world as a whole seems to be going about things the wrong way around - many seem to be trying to find a way or ways of just making it look less obvious how they are going about things, rather than having an epiphany and then a complete overhaul of everything, looking at things from the horses' point of view. The look of the end goal and the way the horses are trained to get there needs to change. And they're not getting it on the whole. That is the only way dressage (and any other time a horse is 'used' for human gain) can ever become truly acceptable in my opinion, if it is a life the horse would truly choose to live compared to a wild and free one with no human requirements taken from them.
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Just because a few people post videos bridleless jumping and reining doesn’t take away the abuse in both of those sports, what you don’t mention is the people who are posting videos doing dressage movements bridleless , just because a few show sympathetic riding doesn’t mean that the main sports (sj/reining/ barrel racing) are any better than dressage. I see many videos of barrel racing with excessive force with the reins and continuous jabbing with long spurs and wild eyed horses who don’t look like happy athletes to me. I just get a bit cross that dressage gets highlighted all of the time when there is just as bad treatment in other disciplines . All horse sports should be in the spotlight for abuse …
 
splashgirl45 said:
Just because a few people post videos bridleless jumping and reining doesn’t take away the abuse in both of those sports, what you don’t mention is the people who are posting videos doing dressage movements bridleless , just because a few show sympathetic riding doesn’t mean that the main sports (sj/reining/ barrel racing) are any better than dressage. I see many videos of barrel racing with excessive force with the reins and continuous jabbing with long spurs and wild eyed horses who don’t look like happy athletes to me. I just get a bit cross that dressage gets highlighted all of the time when there is just as bad treatment in other disciplines . All horse sports should be in the spotlight for abuse …
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Oh goodness, I didn't mean I think all other sports are great, far from it - and I did include the sentence 'and any other time a horse is 'used' for human gain', which would include all sports as well as leisure/pleasure activities.

My point highlighting SJ and reining to include just two instances of many who are beginning to approach things differently is because they are a clear 'beacon' for others to hopefully want to emulate in those disciplines, with horses having the ability to show clearly if they do or don't want to do something, and with (hopefully) no aversive training techniques, and hopefully therefore with things being approached from their point of view. Yet still being able to work at a good level. I am certain there are other disciplines which have competitors without bridles at times, and certainly there are trainers who focus solely on +R and true liberty work, but SJ and reining were the two I used as an example (not an exhaustive list).

Although there are undoubtedly some in the dressage world showing movements bridleless at times (I think there's even a video from a while back of AvG bareback and in a headcollar albeit on an older, schooled horse), but that's a huuuuge difference from someone who has only ever trained the horse with no pressure, and with the horse given the freedom to say 'No' at all times over the years. And equally with them fully engaged in the training rather than entering into a state of learned helplessness just to survive.

To the best of my knowledge, there is nobody yet in the dressage world who is attempting or promoting the training of dressage horses with no restriction, using positive motivation to train the movements rather than restriction and pressure, giving the horse the ability to say 'No'. I think the biggest issue with elite dressage is that it is easy to fall into the trap of feeling it is desirable for the rider to control or even micro-manage every step and so this is seen as being acceptable in the extremes no matter how it affects the horse - in other disciplines it is more desirable to have a horse who can think for themselves at times. If true harmony was the goal in dressage the horse would still do as requested because they would be motivated to do so by years of encouraging training, but they would also have the freedom of expression and emotional/mental engagement. And they would therefore have a nicer life, which is what all of this is about.

Until people start to do things like that in the dressage world then there's no inspiration for others to step significantly away from the status quo either. And that was really my point - that as a whole, the dressage world seems to be collectively trying to simply make the current way of doing things more acceptable rather than even one person being able to think right outside the box and work solely from the horse's point of view to get better overall results. In other disciplines this seems to be happening slowly already.
 
PS, you are still focusing on dressage , all that you have illustrated equally applies to the other sports, while I agree training and riding competitively and non competitively needs to change so the focus should be on all sports , and endurance 😱😱😱
 
splashgirl45 said:
Just because a few people post videos bridleless jumping and reining doesn’t take away the abuse in both of those sports, what you don’t mention is the people who are posting videos doing dressage movements bridleless , just because a few show sympathetic riding doesn’t mean that the main sports (sj/reining/ barrel racing) are any better than dressage. I see many videos of barrel racing with excessive force with the reins and continuous jabbing with long spurs and wild eyed horses who don’t look like happy athletes to me. I just get a bit cross that dressage gets highlighted all of the time when there is just as bad treatment in other disciplines . All horse sports should be in the spotlight for abuse …
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Not to mention racing
 
splashgirl45 said:
PS, you are still focusing on dressage , all that you have illustrated equally applies to the other sports, while I agree training and riding competitively and non competitively needs to change so the focus should be on all sports , and endurance 😱😱😱
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I don't think there's a single discipline that couldn't improve in a myriad of ways as regards welfare but this thread is about dressage and it does strike me that by concentrating on one very popular and ostentatious discipline change might be effected elsewhere too, effectively by frightening the others into improving themselves. A scattergun approach is difficult to maintain and has limited impact in each area. In addition, if the Danes and Dutch (and in time hopefully other jurisdictions) do end up passing legislation about horse sport that will presumably apply across the board, as it should.
 
eahotson said:
Not to mention racing
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I forgot racing. I used to watch racing a lot but recently there seems to be quite a few flat horses that are breaking down on the track and I now can’t watch flat racing at all and yesterday I started watching the jump racing but didn’t enjoy it so I think my racing viewing is finished… not sure if there are more fatalities or if it’s just me getting more sensitive
 
When the Charlotte thing became very public I think the plan was to keep very quiet and hope that things would die down and everything could carry on as normal.A few conferences of the great and the good were called but nothing changed and now they are talking about not letting "activists" spoil things for everyone else.Never underestimate the sheer amount of money that is tied up at the top end of dressage and of course racing.
Pammy was born and bred into the cream of dressage riding.Her mother was Mollie Sievewright and Talland has always been her home.She did write in the Horse and Hound some years ago that Mr.Mrs. Blogs may not understand the finer points of dressage but did know animal cruelty when they saw it.I don't know what she expected to happen.
 
www.horseandhound.co.uk

FEI World Cup organisers to partner with horse welfare organisation

Ahead of the FEI World Cup Finals 2024 in Basel, the organisers have announced they will partner with a dedicated horse welfare organisation.
www.horseandhound.co.uk www.horseandhound.co.uk

Interesting but how effective? Applies to the FEI World Cup finals 2-6th April in Switzerland.

From the article:

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Although the zero-tolerance policy marks a strong stance, FEI event organisers do not have the authority to disqualify or eliminate a rider – such decisions must be made by FEI officials, including the ground jury.

But organisers can escalate concerns regarding misconduct or welfare violations to FEI stewards, the ground jury, or veterinary officials, who have the power to take disciplinary action.

Switzerland has some of the world’s most stringent animal welfare laws, which operate independently of FEI regulations. The country’s Animal Welfare Act and Ordinance set clear restrictions on training methods and equipment, in some cases going beyond FEI rules.

As a result, organisers in Basel must navigate both international and national regulations, potentially adding another layer of scrutiny to how welfare violations are handled.
 
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