CDJ withdrawn from paris

eahotson said:
Having watched that very upsetting video about horse pain in top class dressage I now understand what Charlotte was trying to do.Apparently the horse has to be taught to keep going forward despite pain.The trainer whips it from the floor and it learns to keep going at all costs.
I was told that showjumping did/do something similar.Set up a jump with a distance that the horse can't manage.Whrn it stops,as it has to,they whip it half to death.It makes you despair of horse sports.
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The same can be seen in eventers but with potentially dangerous, even fatal results.
 
Dos anyone know where it started going so very wrong?

I'm not sure how it can be sorted now. Maybe it lies with the judges, make sure they know what is right and ethical (as far as top end horse sport can be ethical) and insist that they harshly mark down what is wrong regardless of who the rider is.
 
Nari said:
Dos anyone know where it started going so very wrong?

I'm not sure how it can be sorted now. Maybe it lies with the judges, make sure they know what is right and ethical (as far as top end horse sport can be ethical) and insist that they harshly mark down what is wrong regardless of who the rider is.
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For me it was the popularity of Totilas that started taking things downhill quickly.
Anky’s training methods had probably been going on behind closed doors for a while too but they came to the forefront around the same time I think.
 
Ceifer said:
For me it was the popularity of Totilas that started taking things downhill quickly.
Anky’s training methods had probably been going on behind closed doors for a while too but they came to the forefront around the same time I think.
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I think a combination of hyperflexion and hypermobile sport horse breeding both of which have been increasing in momentum for 25 years probably if not longer. Hypermobile horses are easy to overflex (in fact it takes much more feel and skill not to). Showjumpers have been hyperflexing horses for a long time, Anky's methods became prominent at least 20 years ago. I was groom for someone who trained with Richard Davison and it was much talked about, mostly in terms of how impressive her results were, unfortunately, although there were some dissenting voices too. Before that Nicole Uphoff allegedly used hyperflexion with Rembrandt, who was apparently very 'hot', but it wasn't a feature like it was with Anky. Some riders (and horses) were able to present the finished product in the ring in a less ham-fisted way than seems common now, or perhaps methods at home have become more extreme and the results can't translate to harmonious-looking tests anymore. Plus, at that time we weren't really looking for the things we look for now, blue tongues, huge oral conflict behaviours etc.
 
Thinking about this made me go back and find this

What Nicole Uphoff seems to have been doing was using hyperflexion to establish control and submission in a hot horse, whereas what's happening now is that people have discovered that you can use it to get that very exaggerated front leg movement (ie the 'leg mover'). This test shows all the things missing from modern dressage - almost flawless transitions, a rhythm like a metronome - despite not having a perfect classical piaffe it's perfectly rhythmical and executed without tension or excessive driving aids - and real extension of the frame in the extended paces. What's missing is the so-called expression, even though in his day Rembrandt was considered enormously expressive. Not to mention the rider's position and aiding is pretty much perfect, particularly when you consider how little control over their own bodies a lot of modern riders seem to have and how exaggerated everything is.
 
Christian de Coulon ( Landolt) wrote about this in the Horse and Hound a few weeks ago. He said that Dieter Schule said that some of the problems in dressage today stem from 2006 World Champs, where the judges rewarded Blue Hors Matine, who showed expression through tension. He also said that judges have a responsibility to reward correct work. That definitely seems to be forgotten these days :(

In another recent edition was a letter to the editor berating those trying to encourage change and calling them ' casual hackers', basing their opinion on a single photo - a 'moment in time' :mad: There is still a long way to go to improve welfare in equestrian sports.
 
Teaselmeg said:
In another recent edition was a letter to the editor berating those trying to encourage change and calling them ' casual hackers', basing their opinion on a single photo - a 'moment in time' :mad: There is still a long way to go to improve welfare in equestrian sports.
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People like that definitely deserve to have horse sports removed from them :(
 
Burnttoast said:
What Nicole Uphoff seems to have been doing was using hyperflexion to establish control and submission in a hot horse
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And there didn't seem to be the discomfort that so many dressage horses show now.

Burnttoast said:
his test shows all the things missing from modern dressage - almost flawless transitions, a rhythm like a metronome - despite not having a perfect classical piaffe it's perfectly rhythmical and executed without tension or excessive driving aids - and real extension of the frame in the extended paces
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I found it lovely.

A good 30 years ago I was scribing for a dressage judge. One woman did her halt and her horse had bloody patches where she had been rough with her spurs. I pointed it out to the judge. The judge gave her gentle talking to. This was just a fairly small, more than just local show.
 
Nicole uphoff rode R in a deep frame cos he was very spooky for one reason

I once asked on here an opinion of his gold medal test and it was shredded and I was told his rear end was trailing, funny how all those people have dissapeared

His transitions are not just seamless they are instant because she is riding in balance and not leaning back mainly , and actually riding with her seat and he is clearly visibly in front of the leg not between the spurs and a bit
 
I'd like to see change not only in the dressage riding and marking but in the grading requirements for the various breeds used in dressage today.

If the grading didn't pass those horses showing hypermobility - in fact failed them so they couldn't be used as broodmares or as breeding stallions - then the basic 'horse' would start to improve.

That would then leave the riding/marking to be addressed in parallel.

The situation we have at the moment is the breeding of a seeming never ending spiral of horses that are basically physically unsound or destined for very short lives on increasing joint medication with such breeding being encouraged by success in the competition arena.
 
tristars said:
I first became suspicious all was not what I thought it was when anky van grunsven said in dressage mag, must be about 35 or 40 years ago, that although bonfire had won gold medals that she doubted if she could ride him past the end of the road
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That’s interesting- someone I worked for had a lesson with her. Horse was already regarded as very good at dressage but the lesson was aimed at getting him more responsive to the smallest aid to the point of a very reactive horse. It produced a ‘bigger’ movement but the tension/stress created in the horse stayed for a long time and the rider wasn’t happy with it and the approach was not followed up. Haven’t enjoyed dressage for a long time- lacking in any grace or fluidity. It would be interesting to see them have to walk into the ring in a loose rein and then pick up the test.
 
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