CDJ withdrawn from paris

paddy555 said:
sorry but my mind just boggles at this. Perhaps you are just joking and I missed the humour in which case sorry :D:D

Tell him he is good boy or scratch him for going past something but I cannot in any way see it emulates natural horse behaviour to keep snacking horses. Perhaps it is just me but this R+ behaviour seems strange considering the way horses think and behave. I wonder if horses also find it strange.
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I think the horse might find this delightful.
I once had a pony stopped every two minutes for a snack, and my Mother put grass reins on….
 
ramsaybailey said:
Out if interest did they elaborate? On what they thought CDJ was going ro achieve with that 'technique'? Genuinely very curious
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She didn't really elaborate. From what I see, riders at that level can do no wrong in her eyes and shouldn't be questioned. Sometimes I think she thinks that's what one has to do to get horses to perform to a certain level. She also doesn't know much (not saying that to be insulting), so I think that she just sees it as that's how it is, in a way. Whereas others with more exposure and knowledge, might think differently. She's really blinded by "status" and starstruck in a lot of ways.
 
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equinerebel said:
I wish I could just get on and ride across country. That’s all I really want to do, but there’s no where around me that has that type of hacking. So, I think maybe my opinion on what riding truly is and should be is different to other people’s.
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I'm Dun said:
I feel utterly jaded so your not alone.
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Sadly, in the last 2 years just about every horse sport has left me feeling utterly switched off. I've been trying to find something that feels good but it's hard and I often think now that all competing demands on the horse at the top level should be reduced. I've no idea how that could work...in fact, it wouldn't but, imo 5* eventing, dressage, sj, endurance, Western all look increasingly and unfairly extreme for a horse's mind and body. I just don't enjoy watching any of it anymore which is a bit sad but I guess I wonder about the integrity of it all much more now.
 
After reading the FEI/international SJC report this evening….on tack and blood….I don’t know if I want to cry or scream and shout…..
I have never in all my years riding, SJ, hunting ever caused blood on my horses….neither did my children on their ponies, games, dressage, eventing…..
how many of you on here can recall seeing blood caused by your horses biting their tongue, etc etc, blood caused by tack, tack costing hundreds if not thousands of pounds…..
Sorry this is not a well written post, as I am so upset….
 
Marshpiper said:
After reading the FEI/international SJC report this evening….on tack and blood….I don’t know if I want to cry or scream and shout…..
I have never in all my years riding, SJ, hunting ever caused blood on my horses….neither did my children on their ponies, games, dressage, eventing…..
how many of you on here can recall seeing blood caused by your horses biting their tongue, etc etc, blood caused by tack, tack costing hundreds if not thousands of pounds…..
Sorry this is not a well written post, as I am so upset….
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I have never, ever caused my horse to bleed...from the mouth or any other place & I've never ridden with spurs. I loathe that this happens so frequently with competition horses. It's ghastly.
 
I've never made a horse bleed from any part of its body or mouth, and I've never left any unclipped patches on the side of any horse either.

I've ridden hundreds of young horses, sj to 1.35, evented to intermediate, and produced three horses to gp dressage ridden in a variety of bits including doubles, and ridden in spurs a lot, no blood, no bald patches, nothing ever in decades of riding.
 
daffy44 said:
I've never made a horse bleed from any part of its body or mouth, and I've never left any unclipped patches on the side of any horse either.

I've ridden hundreds of young horses, sj to 1.35, evented to intermediate, and produced three horses to gp dressage ridden in a variety of bits including doubles, and ridden in spurs a lot, no blood, no bald patches, nothing ever in decades of riding.
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So you understand why I wish to weep…
 
www.horseandhound.co.uk

New rule for tack- or rider-induced blood proposed in showjumping

A new rule for tack or rider-induced blood has been proposed in showjumping – as terminology concerning “minor cases” is scrapped. The final draft of the FEI rules changes that will go to the vote at the general assembly (4–7 November) have been published. The first draft was released on 8 July...
www.horseandhound.co.uk www.horseandhound.co.uk
 
I've had blood from a short hack on a new girth, horse also sensitive to rubbing from legs despite best efforts at coat change time- arguably better with a rollerball spur than side of boot and with the area clipped which would initially seem to be counter productive and means I find it interesting that on the international stage they now leave the hair. Seemed to have an issue with leather and it was a bit of a learning process.
 
Wtaf are they saying you can now cause blood with your equipment/riding and just get a warning???

They really dont have a clue. Notice how acceptable sj tack is being left for an extra year probably because several wear half a tack shop

Time to ban horse "sport" at this point. The rich owners dont help, most probably just want results and dont care how it takes to get there. The fact people are still sending horses to those who have shown dubious practice says it all

Even eventing is turning into half a tack shop on heads

It gets to the point where you wonder how many of them are actually squeaky clean

Even leaving non clipped areas and using belly bands. How about banning spurs?

Just ban it
 
Well Facebook keeps showing me FEI/CMH TV videos of world cup dressage.... with Helgstrand dressage branding all over it. So I guess that's how that is going.

It's so frustrating, there are so many people out there doing good things with horses across the levels and the different disciplines, but what is being held up and rewarded as "the best in the world"? It just isn't.
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
Wtaf are they saying you can now cause blood with your equipment/riding and just get a warning???

They really dont have a clue. Notice how acceptable sj tack is being left for an extra year probably because several wear half a tack shop

Time to ban horse "sport" at this point. The rich owners dont help, most probably just want results and dont care how it takes to get there. The fact people are still sending horses to those who have shown dubious practice says it all

Even eventing is turning into half a tack shop on heads

It gets to the point where you wonder how many of them are actually squeaky clean

Even leaving non clipped areas and using belly bands. How about banning spurs?

Just ban it
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I am lucky enough to be involved in an administration role with a most wonderful young lady rider, an event rider, who has always brought on her own ponies and horses, bred by her mum and sadly much missed granny….she is now being asked to ride more horses owned by other people……why.because she is talented, sympathetic, hard working and never in the 30 odd years I have known her, I have never seen blood or seen her use a whip in anger….I am positive she is not alone in that….so why are others being allowed to bring our equine sports to this point….could it possibly be money
 
equinerebel said:
I wish I could just get on and ride across country. That’s all I really want to do, but there’s no where around me that has that type of hacking. So, I think maybe my opinion on what riding truly is and should be is different to other people’s.
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I think that is what most riders prefer to do, and 100% certain their mounts find it more stimulating.
Some of these other people, their focus is not on riding, there was even a bizarre thread on here about why riding horses is odd / inappropriate - fine if you don’t really want to ride, hopefully your horses are not too bored or are simply too unsound to object to permanent living in the same little paddock or arena, but they are not ‘riders’, even if they occasionally get on board.
 
Exasperated said:
I think that is what most riders prefer to do, and 100% certain their mounts find it more stimulating.
Some of these other people, their focus is not on riding, there was even a bizarre thread on here about why riding horses is odd / inappropriate - fine if you don’t really want to ride, hopefully your horses are not too bored or are simply too unsound to object to permanent living in the same little paddock or arena, but they are not ‘riders’, even if they occasionally get on board.
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But thats the crux of all this isnt it? Do we have the right to ride just because we want to? I know far too many horses unhappy being ridden and no one cares as they want to ride.
 
Exasperated said:
I think that is what most riders prefer to do, and 100% certain their mounts find it more stimulating.
Some of these other people, their focus is not on riding, there was even a bizarre thread on here about why riding horses is odd / inappropriate - fine if you don’t really want to ride, hopefully your horses are not too bored or are simply too unsound to object to permanent living in the same little paddock or arena, but they are not ‘riders’, even if they occasionally get on board.
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Horses did not evolve so we could ride them so I fail to see why a debate about the appropriateness of riding them is bizarre. Knowing what we know about them now, perhaps if we hadn't already worked out we could ride them few people would be arguing it would be a reasonable thing to begin to do today.
 
I'm Dun said:
But thats the crux of all this isnt it? Do we have the right to ride just because we want to? I know far too many horses unhappy being ridden and no one cares as they want to ride.
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Do we have the right to keep a wide ranging animal confined to very limited paddocks and manège, at best playing games, jumping poles and making shapes for its life? If your horse is genuinely happier doing that than going out and about carrying or drawing you - fine, no argument with it, but I also know rather too many who are already, or would be if confined in this way, bored witless, or terrified of anything novel. Like equine rebel, I personally know far more people who like to take their horses out of those situations. Obviously we know very different people and very different horses, which is also fair enough.
 
Burnttoast said:
Horses did not evolve so we could ride them so I fail to see why a debate about the appropriateness of riding them is bizarre. Knowing what we know about them now, perhaps if we hadn't already worked out we could ride them few people would be arguing it would be a reasonable thing to begin to do today.
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Absolutely fine, you’re not riding any, then! Along with evolution, we have multi-millennia of human history and cultures, in some of which horses have been very specifically evolved and developed and become integral to each others’ existences. I’d prefer to keep horses in mine, thank you all the same, necessary or not, and shall try to make sure they are at least kept as fit and entertained as I’m reasonably able to do 😀
 
Exasperated said:
Do we have the right to keep a wide ranging animal confined to very limited paddocks and manège, at best playing games, jumping poles and making shapes for its life? If your horse is genuinely happier doing that than going out and about carrying or drawing you - fine, no argument with it, but I also know rather too many who are already, or would be if confined in this way, bored witless, or terrified of anything novel. Like equine rebel, I personally know far more people who like to take their horses out of those situations. Obviously we know very different people and very different horses, which is also fair enough.
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Does anyone ever say this about broodmares in unbelievably boring fields on the average thoroughbred stud? Many people who retire horses after a ridden career seek out better turnout options presumably because they're aware that the facilities on the average yard are not ideal for horses. They must have assumed that the ridden work compensated for the mediocre living conditions, when often it may actually have compounded them - I've seen good and very bad in this regard. But people *are* clearly happy to keep horses in the suboptimal conditions that you seem to be implying would not be suitable for the non-ridden horse while it's convenient to them (and I agree about the lack of suitability, but would argue they aren't suitable for ridden horses either).

Horses are neophobes. Being frightened of novel things is entirely within their makeup and something we have to work to overcome so that we can safely introduce them to new things that they might not automatically choose for themselves. Overcoming their basic nature in this way is something we do to make keeping them easier for us - yes, it makes things easier for them too, but only the things we want to do. They can horse perfectly well on their own.

I don't know why centuries of human culture should be seen as more significant than the welfare of individual horses. We know from depictions in art that a lot of horsemanship involved massive curb bits, big spurs, open mouths, distended nostrils and stress. From societies that still have working horses we can infer that a lot of our own workaday horses in previous centuries probably suffered terribly fitting tack, lameness, illness and poor horsemanship.

It's perfectly possible to integrate unridden horses into a human life and keep them for many years in a moderately interesting space with company and choices and not have them acquire any stereotypies as a result of their confinement, never have them suffer colic or laminitis, always have them appearing interested in your presence without being clingy and always engaging in behaviours that are normal for horses, because I've done it.
 
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If we anthropomorphise for a moment. A lot of people enjoy being retired, even if they have "boring" lives with no job. Some people would love being unemployed forever and not leaving their house probably, if they had a nice comfy house and things to entertain them but the vast majority of people like having a job, hobbies etc to keep them busy and active and engaged. If the job you had to have, no choice in the matter, was physically uncomfortable, made you chronically painful or partially disabled by middle age or was so stressful you became genuinely mentally ill, you'd maybe prefer the boring life in your house in comparison. In a fairer world you'd probably choose to have a job that you were physically and mentally capable of doing and you'd maybe enjoy it!

As I've said before, it does not have to be the jobs and sometimes abusive training we currently expect horses to do, particularly at the top end of sports, or nothing. That debate is a waste of time and energy as it is not a binary.
 
Burnttoast said:
Does anyone ever say this about broodmares in unbelievably boring fields on the average thoroughbred stud? Many people who retire horses after a ridden career seek out better turnout options presumably because they're aware that the facilities on the average yard are not ideal for horses. They must have assumed that the ridden work compensated for the mediocre living conditions, when often it may actually have compounded them - I've seen good and very bad in this regard. But people *are* clearly happy to keep horses in the suboptimal conditions that you seem to be implying would not be suitable for the non-ridden horse while it's convenient to them (and I agree about the lack of suitability, but would argue they aren't suitable for ridden horses either).

Horses are neophobes. Being frightened of novel things is entirely within their makeup and something we have to work to overcome so that we can safely introduce them to new things that they might not automatically choose for themselves. Overcoming their basic nature in this way is something we do to make keeping them easier for us - yes, it makes things easier for them too, but only the things we want to do. They can horse perfectly well on their own.

I don't know why centuries of human culture should be seen as more significant than the welfare of individual horses. We know from depictions in art that a lot of horsemanship involved massive curb bits, big spurs, open mouths, distended nostrils and stress. From societies that still have working horses we can infer that a lot of our own workaday horses in previous centuries probably suffered terribly fitting tack, lameness, illness and poor horsemanship.

It's perfectly possible to integrate unridden horses into a human life and keep them for many years in a moderately interesting space with company and choices and not have them acquire any stereotypies as a result of their confinement, never have them suffer colic or laminitis, always have them appearing interested in your presence without being clingy and always engaging in behaviours that are normal for horses, because I've done it.
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I think to some extent, some of the neophobia we see in horses may well be due to the equipment we use to ride. Horses are, undoubtably, flight animals and the tack we use to “confine” and “control” them restricts their ability to flee, which likely means that they feel less inclined to explore new things because they have no option to escape if the new thing is a threat.

I’ve noticed this a bit in my own experience, with my old horse who was extremely neurotic, he was safest to ride in a headcollar (although still not 100% safe, even in the field he was prone to spooking at a leaf). With Cob, she responds far better to cues when ridden in a rope halter than her Pelham (we slowly transitioned) because she feels that she has more of an “option”. She is also far easier to ride in areas that she considers “spooky” when bareback likely because she has that option for escape, and/or possibly because I’m better able to detect her feelings, and adapt my riding to give her the reassurance she needs.

At present, it’s just a theory linking to a slight pattern I’ve seen.

ETA: I sound like a hippie dippie numpty, but I still very much have the approach that horses should still do their “job”. I just like to try and make it easier for them. Since I’ve had my own horses and learned from them, I’ve become less and less enamoured with the “extreme” side of equestrian sport, where we push horses to the absolute max of their physical and mental capacity simply for the competitive gain of top riders. I quite like to do things that are enjoyable for both horse and rider. I think that low-level riding is quite nice, it keeps horses healthy, and horses are quite likely to enjoy it, it has some thinking and work involved without going too far, really. I think it’s also a case of knowing what your horse does to be a bit annoying vs pain signals/fear signals.

That is just my view though, and it’s based solely upon my personal experience, so it’s a pretty small sample.
 
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I have one horse who would rather still be in full work, but can’t be. She’s not miserable with her retired life by any means, but you can see how busy her mind is. She’s always thinking, always moving. She keeps herself busy managing her herd. She’s happy, but I have no doubt she’d love if her body was younger.

I have another that is younger but would love nothing more than to stay in the field all day eating.
 
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