CDJ withdrawn from paris

Burnttoast said:
web.archive.org

Charlotte Dujardin’s treatment of horses under spotlight again

Allegations of ‘clear signs of tension and conflict behaviour’ in rider’s horse during warm-up, six months after her return from suspension
web.archive.org web.archive.org
Click to expand...
This is a great line from that article:

"This begs the question: if there were 41 minutes of good welfare and four minutes of bad, does that make the four minutes less relevant?"

Nicely making the "four-minute snapshot" claim entirely irrelevant.
 
Burnttoast said:
That's quite cryptic...?
Click to expand...

It's not meant to be, but does read far more sinisterly than intended. Again not meaning to be cryptic as incidents I've heard about pre ban were of course second and third hand, but that her riding style and conduct had been commented on before, and that keeping her with him meant CH was able to keep a lid on her behaviour. I'd like to think for the welfare of the horses, but could also have been to protect his reputation too.
 
ElleSkywalker said:
It's not meant to be, but does read far more sinisterly than intended. Again not meaning to be cryptic as incidents I've heard about pre ban were of course second and third hand, but that her riding style and conduct had been commented on before, and that keeping her with him meant CH was able to keep a lid on her behaviour. I'd like to think for the welfare of the horses, but could also have been to protect his reputation too.
Click to expand...
Ah ok yes, I could imagine that being the case unfortunately. :(
 
There’s an article in three Daily Mail about it too now. Not a paper I have any fondness for, but it does bring the issue to a very large audience.

trib.al

Dujardin embroiled in fresh controversy over treatment of horses

Triple Olympic dressage champion Charlotte Dujardin has been embroiled in fresh controversy over her treatment of horses.
trib.al trib.al
 
I find it all incredibly frustrating.

I love dressage. The feeling of working together with the horse in harmony, so he feels powerful and soft at the same time. I don't recognise that feeling in top flight dressage. The top riders seem to have to work really hard to get the horse to do what they want. I don't see much softness or harmony, except from a few people (but they don't get the scores LF or CDJ get).

I have been doing BD judge training and at "normal" levels (I've done sessions on intro to AM) judges are encouraged to reward harmony. I don't know why the top level is so different. I don't know what the judges are seeing when we plebs are seeing harsh aids, upset horses and incorrect movements.

I haven't lost all hope. There are several riders who do seem to strive for harmony. I would name them but I don't want a google search of their names to bring up such a negative thread. I train/have trained with two team GB olympians and neither has encouraged me to be harsh or restrictive and both have helped on the journey to a relaxed, easy test. Similarly I train with a Dutch trainer who has been an international team coach and again his ethos is towards relaxation and understanding between horse and rider. So I do have hope.

We need international judges to be brave and call out discomfort, brutality and tension when they see it and mark it accordingly, not awarding 75%+ to tests like those discussed in this thread.
 
DressageCob said:
I find it all incredibly frustrating.

I love dressage. The feeling of working together with the horse in harmony, so he feels powerful and soft at the same time. I don't recognise that feeling in top flight dressage. The top riders seem to have to work really hard to get the horse to do what they want. I don't see much softness or harmony, except from a few people (but they don't get the scores LF or CDJ get).

I have been doing BD judge training and at "normal" levels (I've done sessions on intro to AM) judges are encouraged to reward harmony. I don't know why the top level is so different. I don't know what the judges are seeing when we plebs are seeing harsh aids, upset horses and incorrect movements.

I haven't lost all hope. There are several riders who do seem to strive for harmony. I would name them but I don't want a google search of their names to bring up such a negative thread. I train/have trained with two team GB olympians and neither has encouraged me to be harsh or restrictive and both have helped on the journey to a relaxed, easy test. Similarly I train with a Dutch trainer who has been an international team coach and again his ethos is towards relaxation and understanding between horse and rider. So I do have hope.

We need international judges to be brave and call out discomfort, brutality and tension when they see it and mark it accordingly, not awarding 75%+ to tests like those discussed in this thread.
Click to expand...
I agree but clearly higher level dressage is on a very different road ATM. I am glad CDJ is being called out again for her riding and horsemanship. I watched recent tests and actually wonder who is coaching/supporting her these days or just why the braced, death grip-and-jab style has been so reinforced? Can the woman actually ride a horse these days or is it a case of being enclosed by knee blocks, super deep seat, get the groom to hold the super hot warmblood whilst you get in the cockpit and hope for the best?

There are moments in some of the tests that look utterly bizarre to me - both in terms of driving with spurs, holding with hands and the very braced back body. I am no rider at all and have never really succeeded competitively at anything other than a basic level but I think early training and ongoing training never ever suggested an approach that looks like this. Perhaps the trainers I have liked and trusted are useless?! In any case I can no longer watch and have no further interest in the 'sport' that elite dressage portrays. Those poor,poor, fragile horses though. 😭.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
I don't disagree with the issues with riders in other countries but seems fair that press in this country will focus on GB riders.

The 'yes but...' about riders elsewhere is where that FB group (time to act?) seemed to fall down. It was fine when it was pointing the finger abroad but as soon as we need to look at the state of our own house, well that was unacceptable.

Change is not going to come from within the sport. I hope these journalists won't let this lie. The BEF statement in that article is so telling. I'm pleased it's in the physical paper and hope it will catch the attention of a wider audience.
Click to expand...

While I agree that CDJ needs to be criticised , it’s a witch hunt and although I personally don’t like her she is a person and her mental health is still important, and the press need to remember that . Also part of the blame is with the organisations that have allowed this sort of behaviour and rewarded it in the tests . We need to look at the judges and the stewards and they need the backing of the FEI etc to enable them to stop this sort of riding
 
palo1 said:
I agree but clearly higher level dressage is on a very different road ATM. I am glad CDJ is being called out again for her riding and horsemanship. I watched recent tests and actually wonder who is coaching/supporting her these days or just why the braced, death grip-and-jab style has been so reinforced? Can the woman actually ride a horse these days or is it a case of being enclosed by knee blocks, super deep seat, get the groom to hold the super hot warmblood whilst you get in the cockpit and hope for the best?

There are moments in some of the tests that look utterly bizarre to me - both in terms of driving with spurs, holding with hands and the very braced back body. I am no rider at all and have never really succeeded competitively at anything other than a basic level but I think early training and ongoing training never ever suggested an approach that looks like this. Perhaps the trainers I have liked and trusted are useless?! In any case I can no longer watch and have no further interest in the 'sport' that elite dressage portrays. Those poor,poor, fragile horses though. 😭.
Click to expand...

When I was teaching I used to tell the kids to go on youtube and watch videos of top riders, look how quiet they are and how they sit etc, etc. I wouldnt dare do that now!
 
splashgirl45 said:
While I agree that CDJ needs to be criticised , it’s a witch hunt and although I personally don’t like her she is a person and her mental health is still important, and the press need to remember that . Also part of the blame is with the organisations that have allowed this sort of behaviour and rewarded it in the tests . We need to look at the judges and the stewards and they need the backing of the FEI etc to enable them to stop this sort of riding
Click to expand...
In what sense a witch hunt though? She is certainly not the only rider being picked up on for these types of issues.

I'm not sure where the mental health thing comes in. Neither the time article nor the FB video were going after her personality, but commenting on concerns about her riding behaviour and that of her horse/s. If that's uncomfortable, perhaps it needs to be?

I agree wholeheartedly about the state of the organisations, particularly the FEI but also would include BD and BEF, but my sympathy is somewhat limited because ultimately it is a choice for a rider to aim for and put oneself on that particular stage to perform. Which is also why I got over my initial excitement re: BM after the Olympics because it's the same stage.

We could go round in circles about responsibility in the sport (riders, organisations, judges, stewards) but it seems to get ever clearer in my mind that change is not going to come from within, the sport is not going to self-regulate at the very top, and it's probably going to have to come from outside the sport.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
I agree wholeheartedly about the state of the organisations, particularly the FEI but also would include BD and BEF, but my sympathy is somewhat limited because ultimately it is a choice for a rider to aim for and put oneself on that particular stage to perform. Which is also why I got over my initial excitement re: BM after the Olympics because it's the same stage.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. And not to get too fluffy bunny about it but the only ones who get no choice on where they work, how they work and how they present themselves to the world are the horses. I simply don't think I can put the MH of a well paid professional athlete (who makes a choice every day to be on the world stage in exchange for money and acclaim) above that of the animal who never asked for any of it.

She isn't being criticised for anything she hasn't done on camera, that I can see. Calling it a "witch hunt" implies there is nothing valid to hunt for, as witches aren't real!
 
I'm afraid this isn't a witch hunt, she was a highly decorated individual who fell to earth in a very public way at a very public time. After the ban was served she was obviously going to be under scrutiny to see if any behaviours had changed.
How she presents herself post ban is entirely under her control, so if public behaviours are such that they deserve criticism, and she knew she would be watched, that's not a witch hunt.
 
It wasn't that long ago that the return of CDJ was being heralded by certain shows and SM accounts.

She received a year's ban for abusive training.
She received positive press coverage from many places upon her return.
She is now showing that her training has produced at least one horse who is much more tense and unwilling than before the ban.

How and why is 'being kind' or 'considering her MH' going to help here?
Specifically, how is it going to help the horses who are affected?
 
splashgirl45 said:
While I agree that CDJ needs to be criticised , it’s a witch hunt and although I personally don’t like her she is a person and her mental health is still important, and the press need to remember that . Also part of the blame is with the organisations that have allowed this sort of behaviour and rewarded it in the tests . We need to look at the judges and the stewards and they need the backing of the FEI etc to enable them to stop this sort of riding
Click to expand...
So nothing should be said, because nobody has stopped it? Next you'll be blaming the horse for not decking her if it wasn't happy! 😏

Everyone commenting that she's done her ban, or is an amazing rider, is slowly adding to the demise of the sport imo. Not just dressage either, but horse sport in general. I didn't think i'd ever see a day when a large proportion of the equestrian community are happy to excuse animal abuse, or pretend it didn't happen, because of who's doing it.
 
Is it wrong that I'm glad the Mail has picked up again on CDJ (although I doubt with other current world events it will get as much traction as last time)?

She patently hasn't changed her riding at all - it appears to be even worse now if that was possible. She also appears to be so arrogant that she is right and those complaining don't know what they're talking about that she isn't going to change.

I wasn't aware that she was back into the UK world class performance group as soon as she returned. I find it sad that it is the case and wish there was some pressure we could bring to get her pulled from that (which provides financial funding for her). However it seems that getting medals is more important to the sports funding bodies than horse (or human) welfare (remember the gymnastics trainer abuse cases a few years ago).

I just wish that there was also some way to prevent her buying new young horses (which I suspect she is doing, probably in partnership with others) that will go on to a life of being ridden in the way she does. She, Helgstrand and others should have been banned from buying or keeping horses for at least 10 years.
 
FEI, judges, stewards, trainers Yes. But what about the owners? They are also to blame putting their horses with some of the aforementioned riders. I have had horses ridden by pros and if I saw even a smidge of the hands, spurs, etc that rider would have been pulled off there and then and the horse taken back home. I wouldn't have held back in giving them a piece of my mind too and wouldn't give a damn who heard me.
 
Nicnac said:
FEI, judges, stewards, trainers Yes. But what about the owners? They are also to blame putting their horses with some of the aforementioned riders. I have had horses ridden by pros and if I saw even a smidge of the hands, spurs, etc that rider would have been pulled off there and then and the horse taken back home. I wouldn't have held back in giving them a piece of my mind too and wouldn't give a damn who heard me.
Click to expand...
100% correct, I totally agree. The current owners of CDJ’s rides should be named and held accountable for supporting someone who is repeatedly subject to welfare concerns. Makes you think they accept her practices! Those owners should face the same level of scrutiny IMO.
 
splashgirl45 said:
While I agree that CDJ needs to be criticised , it’s a witch hunt and although I personally don’t like her she is a person and her mental health is still important, and the press need to remember that . Also part of the blame is with the organisations that have allowed this sort of behaviour and rewarded it in the tests . We need to look at the judges and the stewards and they need the backing of the FEI etc to enable them to stop this sort of riding
Click to expand...
I agree and loathe a trial by social media but CDJ could have chosen to change, to ride and train differently. She will have been so aware of public scrutiny following her ban, but yet....
 
Ok here's an idea. Inspired by snow-boarding where they review video to see things like the grab, whether a hand touches the snow on landing etc - which is too hard to spot live, how about anonymous video judging. So a panel - which has to include someone specifically looking at harmony/tension etc - starts reviewing as soon as the test ends and marks then. Or the judges mark the movements live, as now, but there is an anonymous 'harmony' judge who adds a score from 0-1. And all the other scores are multipled by that. So a score of 75% and a harmony score of 0.9 gets 67.50 whereas a harmonsy score of 0.8 gets 60. Lack of harmony would then be so important that no-one dares risk a low harmony score! Which fits with the central role of 'harmony' in dressage.

In the skiiing/snowboarding half pipe or Big air the commentators wanted to see spectaular tricks. And got a bit carried away with their enthusiasm for that. But when the scores came out they were able to say 'oh they have hammered that grab' or 'yes they landed on a heel side edge'. Or whatever. So yes reward big tricks IF they are carried out smoothly and correctly. A less spectacular trick done perfecrly outscored a shaky spectacular one. So the judging rewarded what it is meant to reward and not just the Wow moments.
 
It is so sad to see Glamourdale these days. I became aware of his when he was a 5yo I think, maybe before then, in any case it was at a time when he still showed alot of natural movement and dynamically looked like a horse. I remember thinking back then I hope he doesn't end up... 'Over-trained', shall we call it politely?

Sadly I now only feel devastation that this is the culmination of those years of being trained in the way he has been - pain and stress indicators, broken gaits, no joy, no beauty any more.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Ok here's an idea. Inspired by snow-boarding where they review video to see things like the grab, whether a hand touches the snow on landing etc - which is too hard to spot live, how about anonymous video judging. So a panel - which has to include someone specifically looking at harmony/tension etc - starts reviewing as soon as the test ends and marks then. Or the judges mark the movements live, as now, but there is an anonymous 'harmony' judge who adds a score from 0-1. And all the other scores are multipled by that. So a score of 75% and a harmony score of 0.9 gets 67.50 whereas a harmonsy score of 0.8 gets 60. Lack of harmony would then be so important that no-one dares risk a low harmony score! Which fits with the central role of 'harmony' in dressage.

In the skiiing/snowboarding half pipe or Big air the commentators wanted to see spectaular tricks. And got a bit carried away with their enthusiasm for that. But when the scores came out they were able to say 'oh they have hammered that grab' or 'yes they landed on a heel side edge'. Or whatever. So yes reward big tricks IF they are carried out smoothly and correctly. A less spectacular trick done perfecrly outscored a shaky spectacular one. So the judging rewarded what it is meant to reward and not just the Wow moments.
Click to expand...
I do like this as an idea.

But tbh there is also the issue of judges giving high marks to movements that are not only tense and strained but fundamentally incorrect. The passage and piaffe where the legs move backwards in the air, the extended movements where the frame or stride doesn't actually lengthen etc. Whether or not the current "style" of dressage is even POSSIBLE without excessive tension is maybe the question.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Ok here's an idea. Inspired by snow-boarding where they review video to see things like the grab, whether a hand touches the snow on landing etc - which is too hard to spot live, how about anonymous video judging. So a panel - which has to include someone specifically looking at harmony/tension etc - starts reviewing as soon as the test ends and marks then. Or the judges mark the movements live, as now, but there is an anonymous 'harmony' judge who adds a score from 0-1. And all the other scores are multipled by that. So a score of 75% and a harmony score of 0.9 gets 67.50 whereas a harmonsy score of 0.8 gets 60. Lack of harmony would then be so important that no-one dares risk a low harmony score! Which fits with the central role of 'harmony' in dressage.

In the skiiing/snowboarding half pipe or Big air the commentators wanted to see spectaular tricks. And got a bit carried away with their enthusiasm for that. But when the scores came out they were able to say 'oh they have hammered that grab' or 'yes they landed on a heel side edge'. Or whatever. So yes reward big tricks IF they are carried out smoothly and correctly. A less spectacular trick done perfecrly outscored a shaky spectacular one. So the judging rewarded what it is meant to reward and not just the Wow moments.
Click to expand...

I think that is a very interesting idea. I sometimes think it should be what the naked eye sees and there is too much over analysing of things but agree that in the snow boarding etc the judges cannot see close up on whether a hand grab has been held for example and that does really make sense.
 
IrishMilo said:
Lottie Fry was also filmed. The horse is so tense I can't even decipher what half the movements are supposed to be.

Click to expand...
I can't even watch that debacle. It is hideous and at what point did it become acceptable? Makes me so very sad for the poor horses who ask for none of this. But then nothing should surprise me. There is a well known worldclass eventer who i would not let anywhere near a cactus, let alone a horse. Yet they are held in such high esteem, despite the fact they have been pulled up numerous times. Again it is apparently acceptable, any one comments and they are told " but what do you know, you don't compete at that level!". Horse sports are spiralling out of control and those at the top seem to just sit there and allow it to happen, no one seems to want to take any accountability for anything.
 
Definitely agree the usually rich owners need to be held accountable for sending the horses to these people

Unfortunately it seems all they care about is who gets the best results 🙄

Its a whole viscous cycle and has had its day. Animals in circuses were banned, the majority of "top level" dressage looks like something youd find in a circus along with the unethical training.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top