CDJ withdrawn from paris

Crazy_cat_lady said:
Definitely agree the usually rich owners need to be held accountable for sending the horses to these people

Unfortunately it seems all they care about is who gets the best results 🙄

It’s a whole viscous cycle and has had its day. Animals in circuses were banned, the majority of "top level" dressage looks like something youd find in a circus along with the unethical training.
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Glad it’s not just me that thinks top level dressage just looks like circus tricks. I’ve been saying that for years. I can’t bear to watch it. Top level eventing dressage more often than not, looks much more harmonious and in a nicer frame
 
jhoward said:
A video was posted a few pages back of her in the ring and the horse was not going well I think that is what has set people off on the past few pages, it's very easy to forget these are big powerful fit horses and some of the " hanging of reins" comments people forget this, unless you've sat on one of these horses you just can't comprehend the power and of course they come up hyped up etc, so I personally think some of what's being seen and commented on ( not just here but all over the net )
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I agree they are fit, powerful horses but so are top level event horses and their riders don’t hang on the reins in the same way.
 
misst said:
I find it impossible to believe he didn't know what went on. If he didn't condone it why did he allow it☹️
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I agree.

Also, it was apparently he who gave her the name of Edwina Scissorhands wasn't it :( .

I think it's more likely that he could see she had talent, and tried to keep the undesirable aspects of her training and riding managed, but I agree that he couldn't simply be oblivious to it all.
 
Even the "best" riders/trainers are training in compression, using LDR, riding so that the back drops behind the saddle, impure gaits...all sorts. They are our role models and even the best are a fair way off the mark if you're looking for truly healthy training. As I say, it's the system, it's not possible to be truly horse centric, though of course there is a scale...
 
Maddie Moo said:
I feel this comment summarises a lot of issues with modern dressage and horse sport…

View attachment 173315
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Among the many points this misses, two stand out for me.

First, that you don't need to be GP training to be able to see an unhappy looking horse. I don't think you even necessarily need to be a 'horsey' person to see that. In some cases not being horsey might be an advantage on that front.

Second, unsurprising from what is really a very small and kind of insular world, is that not that people don't know what it takes to get to GP, it's that increasingly we don't give a crap about what it takes to get there if this is what 'there' looks like.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
Second, unsurprising from what is really a very small and kind of insular world, is that not that people don't know what it takes to get to GP, it's that increasingly we don't give a crap about what it takes to get there if this is what 'there' looks like.
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This this this this this. It is literally worthless.
 
It would be interesting to chart the last 40 years of dressage at GP to see if you could track the scores, trainers, breeding etc. To see if you can get an idea of the when the differences and influences started. I wonder if it's possible 🤔
Things like the Anky effect and her trainer on Rollkur.

Remember when we thought Blueberry was going to herald a new era of dressage 🤷‍♀️
 
Cloball said:
Remember when we thought Blueberry was going to herald a new era of dressage 🤷‍♀️
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I know - what on earth happened?

It wasn't CJD by herself. I do think that if judges had consistently rewarded harmonious riding and correct, pure paces, then the tide would have turned, but I suspect , based on some comments on here, that perhaps judges were 'influenced' by some top riders/breeders/owners to allow/encourage the short-cut 'spectacular' dressage, for their own ends. I also suspect that some rider/breeders didn't relish the thought of British riders, with their slower horse production schedules, stealling their limelight, and fast revenues streams. CJD is NOT an innocent victim, but she has confessed to being competitve, and obviously decided that since she wanted to win, she would produse what the judges were rewarding.
 
I have seen her in many press posts today. Many people calling it a "Witch Hunt".
I have to agree with all who have commented before. If she'd come back riding with a more sympathetic, softer manner, we (the general people) may well have forgiven.
BUT
She Who Once Claimed To Be Ethical, Kind & All That came back with the driving into a fixed hand, tension, horses that are so tense their legs are all over the place.

Once again, she threw us all under the bus & drove it off to her own purpose. Money & success.
 
Dave's Mam said:
I have seen her in many press posts today. Many people calling it a "Witch Hunt".
I have to agree with all who have commented before. If she'd come back riding with a more sympathetic, softer manner, we (the general people) may well have forgiven.
BUT
She Who Once Claimed To Be Ethical, Kind & All That came back with the driving into a fixed hand, tension, horses that are so tense their legs are all over the place.

Once again, she threw us all under the bus & drove it off to her own purpose. Money & success.
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Yes, there does seem to be a subliminal feel of 'well, no need for any of that artifice anymore'. And of course she will be fine. The FEI have no intention of stepping in to regulate the 'normal' conduct of dressage.
 
Cloball said:
Remember when we thought Blueberry was going to herald a new era of dressage 🤷‍♀️
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The biggest advantage she had with him was he loved to perform. It is a very different feeling (at any level!) being on a horse which is "woohoo everyone is here to see me, let's dance" to the tension that many horses feel in a competitive environment. Constantly striving to get back that feeling and be on top again certainly won't be helping her riding today - and when all horses are showing tension, it becomes the norm & no marks are lost*

*unless you are me riding at prelim level where you absolutely get marks deducted.....
 
I think the issue is, CDJ is not really doing anything differently in her riding than she’s always done. It’s just that now it’s being scrutinised because of the incident and the ban.

She’s always ridden them that way- with a death grip in the hand and the leg constantly wanting more.
The same media outlets that applauded her when she was a celebrated Olympian are now pulling her apart, when the reality is her riding is really no different to how it’s always been.

I’m not saying this is right or wrong, it’s just an observation. She’s not come back suddenly riding harsher and stronger, she’s come back doing exactly the same thing that she was previously praised for.
 
Marigold4 said:
So true! At prelim judges reward relaxed and rhythmical and deduct for tense and irregular.
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True. But the pre Joe Midgley version of Lottie who needed to be ridden with a tonne of pressure on her head scored over 70% in a prelim when ridden by her trainer (before I switched to Joe). Not blaming the judges as it’s hard to tell how strong a hand is from a distance. Maybe they should have ride judges in dressage so the judge can feel how the horse feels. Lottie looked pretty but felt horrible to ride until she learned to soften. If the true purpose of dressage is effortless communication and harmony then breeding explosive horses with extravagant movement would no longer be a route to success.
 
Ambers Echo said:
If the true purpose of dressage is effortless communication and harmony then breeding explosive horses with extravagant movement would no longer be a route to success.
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That’s what I thought it was supposed to be about and the constant kicking and movement on the riders lower leg is hideous to watch. I would far rather watch simple transitions done quietly on a happy horse than seeing spurs being dug in on every step. Not to mention the death grip on the reins.
 
SEL said:
The biggest advantage she had with him was he loved to perform. It is a very different feeling (at any level!) being on a horse which is "woohoo everyone is here to see me, let's dance"
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I'm so sorry to quote directly and disagree rather than just quietly having a different opinion, but I think it's an important point.

In my opinion (and that of others who've written articles about it) it isn't that Blueberry - and currently Jaegerbomb for example, also LF claims Glamourdale feels this way - love to perform, it's just that they are more resilient than some to the effects of competition (and the training that goes before it) so don't fall apart and show such clear stress indicators. It actually allows them to have more pressure put on them in some respects.

That G is now showing such strong and obvious conflict behaviours, irregularities in the gaits and stress indicators shows, in my opinion, just how much he is struggling.
 
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scats said:
I think the issue is, CDJ is not really doing anything differently in her riding than she’s always done. It’s just that now it’s being scrutinised because of the incident and the ban.

She’s always ridden them that way- with a death grip in the hand and the leg constantly wanting more.
The same media outlets that applauded her when she was a celebrated Olympian are now pulling her apart, when the reality is her riding is really no different to how it’s always been.

I’m not saying this is right or wrong, it’s just an observation. She’s not come back suddenly riding harsher and stronger, she’s come back doing exactly the same thing that she was previously praised for.
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I agree to a certain extent but I think she looks more braced, it looks 'more' everything - I am sure she is struggling in some ways too and the horse in the clip certainly looks full of tension. Lottie Fry's riding of Glamourdale is, in my view, an absolute disgrace also. Glamourdale looks utterly broken, a travesty of a healthy, happy horse. So much of that elite dressage is ghastly to watch - I was reminded, not completely, but in shades, of the Big Lick.
 
PurpleSpots said:
I'm so sorry to quote directly and disagree rather than just quietly having a different opinion, but I think it's an important point.

In my opinion (and that of others who've written articles about it) it isn't that Blueberry - and currently Jaegerbomb for example, also LF claims Glamourdale feels this way - love to perform, it's just that they are more resilient than some to the effects of competition so don't fall apart and show such clear stress indicators. It actually allows them to have more pressure put on them in some respects.

That G is now showing such strong and obvious conflict behaviours, irregularities in the gaits and stress indicators shows, in my opinion, just how much he is struggling.
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I was trying to quietly disagree here also. I never saw the relaxation or happiness to compete in Valegro that I was told I was seeing. Just marginally less stressed than some others.
 
smolmaus said:
This this this this this. It is literally worthless.
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And it makes a fair bit of the industry worthless as GP dressage is the paradigm. I remember, about 20 years ago, Hilary Vernon used pressure eolates to "prove" that horses do not shift weight to the HQs in piaffe. Even then show ring ouaffes were baaaad. And yet we base so much of our knowledge on research done on "elite" horses and riders.

scats said:
now
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Sorry for quote, on phone and can't face trying to redo it. I completely agree that she hasn't really changed how she rides. She has always ridden in compression.

What DOES change for many of these riders is the saddle. The Equipe Emporio seemed to allow her to sit in balance and didn't emphasise her strength, and when riding youngsters in a "rider swap" thing they do in Sweden she has a remarkable ability to de-rotate a horse's ribcage, fundamental to straightening them.

She hasn't had saddles that suit her since.

Carl is the same, he rode beautifully in an Amerigo around London 2012 but the Albions, PDS and whatever he's in now (is he in a Fairfax yet?) put him into anterior tilt.

Frankly we have too many rear balance saddles with high cantles and often wide waist (inner thigh, lower than the twist) that work against correct function for both horse and rider.
 
I do wonder if Valegro's and Gio's shape and conformation to a certain extent were also advantageous they are both round and compact. Although neither had the spidery legs and broken gaits.

I mean the Rollkur debate has been rumbling since the late 90's is there an optimum era for dressage?

Interesting re. Saddles
 
KEK said:
Do viewing numbers not count for anything in dressage, I wonder? So many of us don’t watch it anymore and we are not alone. Does declining in popularity due to ethical concerns hurt it as a sport?
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I suspect not (yet, possibly ever). Because it's not a televised sport it doesn't have that side of the financing so they won't really notice people leaving until stadiums and auctions start to empty, and they are quite small venues relatively speaking. I wonder if people ceasing to participate at lower levels, while sad for those show organisers etc, might make the national powers-that-be wonder, but they could probably still scare up a national squad from the rich people who carry on regardless even if the grassroots really dwindled. All the sponsors are aimed at themselves or fellow wealthy people who may have very flexible ethics. It's a hugely cliquey and insular sport, really.
 
Marshpiper said:
Are you saying she learnt that behaviour from Carl Hester? Do you have any proof whatsoever of that accusation…
Because having followed him for years and watched him riding a friends horse, plus seeing how every one of his varied pets including birds of all types plus of course how his horses come to him both whilst loose in fields and in their stables I do not believe he has a bad bone in his body….
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I just want to pick up on the last point with an anecdote of my own. I once briefly did a bit of work in exchange for lessons for a local rider (competing at GP but never going to trouble the selectors kind of level). I brought his GP horse in once (they were turned out so I suppose that's a plus) and it literally dragged me to him down the length of the barn, which I thought very cute at the time. A week or so later I was in the barn skipping out and I heard the gate of the lunge pen shut. Popped my head out and through the open barn door saw him absolutely leathering that same horse with a schooling whip. And I mean leathering. I didn't own a smart phone and I was the only other person on the yard. I didn't go back though, and I tell people who to avoid. Some of them tell me oh yes, he's always been like that. The moral of the story I guess is that horses are complicated and not always the best witnesses to their own abuse.
 
SEL said:
The biggest advantage she had with him was he loved to perform. It is a very different feeling (at any level!) being on a horse which is "woohoo everyone is here to see me, let's dance" to the tension that many horses feel in a competitive environment. Constantly striving to get back that feeling and be on top again certainly won't be helping her riding today - and when all horses are showing tension, it becomes the norm & no marks are lost*

*unless you are me riding at prelim level where you absolutely get marks deducted.....
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I'm guessing he also had an innate ability to 'deal with' the pressure she put on him - another thing lots of horses don't have, so they don't get the results because they won't put up with the way she rides as he did. I suppose we ought to be grateful he was a gelding because people selecting for tolerance of abuse (sorry, 'trainability') would have loved his levels of grit.
 
Ambers Echo said:
True. But the pre Joe Midgley version of Lottie who needed to be ridden with a tonne of pressure on her head scored over 70% in a prelim when ridden by her trainer (before I switched to Joe). Not blaming the judges as it’s hard to tell how strong a hand is from a distance. Maybe they should have ride judges in dressage so the judge can feel how the horse feels. Lottie looked pretty but felt horrible to ride until she learned to soften. If the true purpose of dressage is effortless communication and harmony then breeding explosive horses with extravagant movement would no longer be a route to success.
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And of course the rules say a constant contact. If people were allowed to give the rein without being penalised perhaps they would. Or perhaps a visibly soft contact should be written into the rules, because presumably judges can still see if a piaffe is sitting even if there's a loop in the rein. You'd hope!
 
Peglo said:
That’s what I thought it was supposed to be about and the constant kicking and movement on the riders lower leg is hideous to watch. I would far rather watch simple transitions done quietly on a happy horse than seeing spurs being dug in on every step. Not to mention the death grip on the reins.
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I do remember watching Rembrandt (and others) as a teenager and being amazed at the invisible aiding, and thinking it seemed like magic. Well, you can certainly see how it's done now and it doesn't look like magic :rolleyes: 😒
 
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