Ceasar whatshisface video

just found this video on youtube - a classic example of him getting it wrong.
No way is that a naturally aggressive dog - just look at the dogs body language.
Why oh why Cesar puts that second 'noose' lead on i dont know, only seems to make it all worse.

Edited - below is the wrong link - accidentally linked to my broody hen and her chicks - if you like chickens feel free to watch. If you like dogs, watch the second link ;) :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVGIRCSWFHc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXPkSZ7gBTk
 
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I agree, the dog is displaying "I dont know who u are behaviour" when he approaches the crate and acts naturally defensive and he is restricted within the crate. I believe he could have reached in and taken the lead from the get go and the dog would have been ok.
The second lead (is for him to gain better control), if he where to reach out and manually shift the check chain the dog has on up (he risks being bitten, if the dog does turn) by placing the new lead on (slip lead) he has the control he wants without risk of bite. The dog has never had a slip lead on and never so high on the neck (hence the reaction) IMO nothing alarming, just a reaction you would expect from a dog that has never experienced a lead so high around its head (it feels restricting) so the dog reacts.
I think I remember this series and it was fine/he improved the dogs behaviour and tried to teach the owners how best to deal with the "issues" they where having, the owners (another typical case) of numptys:rolleyes:
 
Hmm. I think he gets it right sometimes and very very wrong other times. I remember an episode featuring a St Bernard that was scared to go up the stairs in the house and the daughter desperately wanted the dog to sleep in her room. His method was to literally drag the dog up the stairs, pretty much choking it. It made for very uncomfortable viewing. I think a nudge to the side in the right circumstance and at the right time is certainly appropriate but he does seem to be a bit heavy handed or rather footed at times, his timing can be really off and I really don't like that.
 
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FattyBoomBoom said:
Hmm. I think he gets it right sometimes and very very wrong other times. I remember an episode featuring a St Bernard that was scared to go up the stairs in the house and the daughter desperately wanted the dog to sleep in her room. His method was to literally drag the dog up the stairs, pretty much choking it. It made for very uncomfortable viewing. I think a nudge to the side in the right circumstance and at the right time is certainly appropriate but he does seem to be a bit heavy handed or rather footed at times, his timing is really off and I really don't like that.
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Another example of an idiotic dog owner, the dog does not want to come upstairs, lets get a behaviourst in:rolleyes:

Erm, leave the damn dog downstairs;) you muppets.

I agree he gets it right and he goets it wrong. I have never seen him getting heavy handed to the point I think "on no, I feel for that dog he is harming it/beng cruel". (in all the programmes I have seen), but that just IMO though.
 
Paint Me Proud said:
just found this video on youtube - a classic example of him getting it wrong.
No way is that a naturally aggressive dog - just look at the dogs body language.
Why oh why Cesar puts that second 'noose' lead on i dont know, only seems to make it all worse.
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Is this not also what he says though in that some of these dogs are not naturally agressive they have become that way because the owners have made them that way, when he shows the owners how the dog can behave when given correct leadership they realise they have made the mistakes and that helps the dog in the long term. From what i saw the dogs immediate reation to any threat was to grab and bite (as it did with the lead and i am presuming this was why Ceaser was there in the first place)
 
To some extent I would term that a shy biter, the way it had a go as he walked away from the cage, but it did seem fine once it had calmed down so maybe the slip lead was overkill, but certainly wouldn't have done the dog any harm. Evie used to carry on like that the first few times she wore her gencon headcollar until she got used to it.

I remember reading about the Saint, bearing in mind they are a giant breed with the accompanying joint problems can't see why anyone would want to encourage one upstairs, so perhaps he should have just pointed this out to them. However don't know the full story so perhaps shouldn't comment.
 
Allover said:
As for the persons energy that is in charge of the dog being "bull****" and does not make a difference, ANY animal responds to energy far more than vocal commands.
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Not sure if this is directed at my earlier comment on energy or not, but I shall explain myself anyway. :p

I didn't state that "energy" doesn't make a difference. In fact I would argue that the domestic dog is really quite well adapted at perceiving the tiny communicative clues we give out such as posture etc. My problem is with the use of the word energy, and the fact that this energy is poorly defined, immeasurable, unsubstantiated and, dare I say it, "made up". *readjusts tin hat* :D

To my mind at least, social cognition and the related areas of study offer a much better insight into why/how our moods (and resulting communications) effect dogs. It seems a shame to reduce the dog-human interaction to energy, and a linear 1,2,3 hierarchy etc. Just my opinion of course :)
 
He's the sort of person who I can understand in very specific situations. The fact that he is on television terrifies me though. Most of the time I expect him to get his face ripped off and I dread to think what happens if people DIY.
 
Pix said:
Not sure if this is directed at my earlier comment on energy or not, but I shall explain myself anyway. :p

I didn't state that "energy" doesn't make a difference. In fact I would argue that the domestic dog is really quite well adapted at perceiving the tiny communicative clues we give out such as posture etc. My problem is with the use of the word energy, and the fact that this energy is poorly defined, immeasurable, unsubstantiated and, dare I say it, "made up". *readjusts tin hat* :D

To my mind at least, social cognition and the related areas of study offer a much better insight into why/how our moods (and resulting communications) effect dogs. It seems a shame to reduce the dog-human interaction to energy, and a linear 1,2,3 hierarchy etc. Just my opinion of course :)
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Is was a bit, i did not read your post correctly :)

Is it just not soo much easier to "think of your energy" as opposed to "think of your tiny communitcative clues"!!! :p

And is this not the whole point when working with animals, keep it simple, quiet and calm.
 
I have to say and I'm prob going to get slated for this but SOME of those kicks didn't look like kicks more a nudge to get the dog to refocuss off what they were about to do. I didnt watch the whole thing as to be honest it was just the same old arguments as I've read before. I find him interesting- I don't follow his techniques as to be honest I don't like any TV 'dog whisperers' BUT I think its more some of the shocking ownership that I find car-crash TV.
 
Allover said:
Is was a bit, i did not read your post correctly :)

Is it just not soo much easier to "think of your energy" as opposed to "think of your tiny communitcative clues"!!! :p

And is this not the whole point when working with animals, keep it simple, quiet and calm.
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Simple, quiet and calm is easy to answer! A big YES from me, and undoubtedly from anyone who has worked with any animal I think. :) Not only would you want to avoid any stress being passed onto the animal that you're working with (horse, canine, primate, doesn't matter) but it's also a big factor for us humans as well. How efficiently can we really observe an animals behaviour, react to it, correct or redirect with great timing etc. if we're anxious, afraid or angry? I know for me that these three states of mind put me under stress, which will instigate my own stress response/fight or flight and thus put me into a position where I'm surely looking out for number one (not to mention everything else that goes along with being stressed, but breaking it down to a stress response is a good starting point). Better I think to react objectively to a behaviour, particularly when hoping to modify it.

That long winded crap ^^^ meant 'yes, calm = good, I agree' :D

With regards the ease of 'thinking of your energy' I would again agree that this is easy. However, when we come to explaining this 'energy' and the whys and wherefores behind it we risk falling into the trap of providing misinformation. As an example, I don't understand the details of how nuclear power works. But my lack of understanding doesn't mean I invent something to fill the gap, or claim that it relies on something nonexistent. That's just making things up, and very poor from both a scientific view (behaviour being a science) and a laymans view- as the layman is now able to justify/misinterpret a great deal from a fairly insubstantial idea. The idea itself, being not grounded in any solid foundations can be warped terribly to something it was never meant to be.

As a real world example I would use the good old Prof. Brian Cox. I was always a terrible physics student, but his T.V programs present complex ideas in a way that I can grasp. Better yet, I want to know more... and may look at the literature surrounding the ideas that come up. Whilst not everybody might go so far as to look at physics papers, I think the analogy is sound enough. Imagine that Millan was replaced for just one season by a documentary that focused on the fantastic social animal that the domestic canine is; its evolution (so tied into our own! :) ), its perception, its cognition and its social understanding. We could even dip into topics such as theory of mind and emotional intelligence. Now that I would tune into! :D

So in short, for me the gap between 'your energy' and 'your dog is a social species, he picks up on little clues as to your 'state of mind' and intention' doesn't have to be so great. The defining variable is the presentation of the information. Make it easy, with obvious examples, and people will catch on.

Do we simplify the facts for the masses, or exchange those facts for invented concepts? I think the masses have more to gain from simplified facts. Particularly given our way of 'running away' with an idea! :D

Anyways that is just my view of course. We all approach these things from a different perspective, which means we have totally different opinions and ideas on any given topic. I find the ever growing research into canine cognition (on many levels, not just social) really exciting, so naturally I want to share that excitement :D
 
I agree that he has encouraged people to understand about exercising their dogs and giving them boundaries, and not treating them like surrogate children. I also agree that the majority of people you see on his programmes should not have a dog.

BUT, his interpretation of dog body language is appaulling, dogs are consistently shown using calming signals and he calls it dominance ! He is a TV entertainer who has made a lot of money and has a big marketing machine behind him, he is not a behaviourist. He does kick the dogs, some harder than others. Who in their right mind would try and deal with an aggressive dog without first muzzling it ( oh but being bitten makes more exciting TV doesnt it !) Trainers deal with aggressive dogs using modern non adversive methods all the time. Yes it takes longer, but it is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fiEvW_429o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
(with apologies for the little bit of naughty language in this)
 
Pix said:
With regards the ease of 'thinking of your energy' I would again agree that this is easy. However, when we come to explaining this 'energy' and the whys and wherefores behind it we risk falling into the trap of providing misinformation.

Imagine that Millan was replaced for just one season by a documentary that focused on the fantastic social animal that the domestic canine is; its evolution (so tied into our own! :) ), its perception, its cognition and its social understanding. We could even dip into topics such as theory of mind and emotional intelligence. Now that I would tune into! :D

So in short, for me the gap between 'your energy' and 'your dog is a social species, he picks up on little clues as to your 'state of mind' and intention' doesn't have to be so great. The defining variable is the presentation of the information. Make it easy, with obvious examples, and people will catch on.

Do we simplify the facts for the masses, or exchange those facts for invented concepts? I think the masses have more to gain from simplified facts. Particularly given our way of 'running away' with an idea! :D

Anyways that is just my view of course. We all approach these things from a different perspective, which means we have totally different opinions and ideas on any given topic. I find the ever growing research into canine cognition (on many levels, not just social) really exciting, so naturally I want to share that excitement :D
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From what i have seen Ceasar does try to make it as simple as possible for the owners, he does tell them that the dogs pick up on the slightest change in demeanour that my not be perceptable to other humans (we are normally far to busy listening to spoken communication) and he always says that humans, though they can read the books and watch the programme, have to "see it to believe it" and that the "energy" you have is the dominating factor over how the dog behaves. :)
 
Foxyfilly said:
The only thing that is good about Mr Millan is that he does
get those lardy arse yanks to exersise their dogs!

Oh and he has white teeth.......:D
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:eek: LMFAO:D
you said it, not me:D but I like it.

I think the energy stuff goes to far, body langauge and handling skills have a huge part to play, he should just say "listen you are a dick and this is why your dog acts the way it does, it's got nowt to do with your energy, you are just useless, so man up and be responsible and stop treating the dog like a little spolit kid and stop HUMANISING IT";)
oh, and "stop letting it like you face and ya teeth, cos it's gross":p
 
Allover said:
From what i have seen Ceasar does try to make it as simple as possible for the owners, he does tell them that the dogs pick up on the slightest change in demeanour that my not be perceptable to other humans (we are normally far to busy listening to spoken communication) and he always says that humans, though they can read the books and watch the programme, have to "see it to believe it" and that the "energy" you have is the dominating factor over how the dog behaves. :)
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I'm not entirely sure what 'see it to believe it' means? Does it denote simply working with canines across each spectrum from the saintly to the down right messed up? That's a lot to expect from a pet owner. Perhaps 'go see your local behaviourist/expert trainer' might be better advice to put on tv?

I'm inclined to agree that the energy (or in my mind, the mental and physiological state that you're in) is a major factor on how efficiently you can 'communicate' with a canine (or other animal) but I'm a little lost on it being the dominating factor. For example, I could be spitting merry confidence from every pore, but if my dog still lunges at other dogs whilst out walking then it's clear that my energy/mental state is not enough on it's own to overcome the etiology of the dog's pathological behaviour. I am (in this case, at least) simply fitting the role of the dog owner that others love to hate- i.e., the type that lets their snotty little rot-bags hoon all over the place regardless of snotty rot-bags reaction to other dogs/who else is around :D

For general advice to the novice owner however I think 'stay calm, stay positive, don't let him take the mick and don't attempt any training if you're wound up' is a good idea. But we still face the problem of effectively and truthfully presenting the reasons for this info.

Vizslak- My face is regularly washed too :D
 
Teaselmeg said:
I agree that he has encouraged people to understand about exercising their dogs and giving them boundaries, and not treating them like surrogate children. I also agree that the majority of people you see on his programmes should not have a dog.

BUT, his interpretation of dog body language is appaulling, dogs are consistently shown using calming signals and he calls it dominance ! He is a TV entertainer who has made a lot of money and has a big marketing machine behind him, he is not a behaviourist. He does kick the dogs, some harder than others. Who in their right mind would try and deal with an aggressive dog without first muzzling it ( oh but being bitten makes more exciting TV doesnt it !) Trainers deal with aggressive dogs using modern non adversive methods all the time. Yes it takes longer, but it is possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fiEvW_429o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
(with apologies for the little bit of naughty language in this)
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Exactly ! his miss reading of dogs body language is what worries me, and also that people copy his methods.
I have seen dogs on his show that are terrified of him and he waffles on saying 'yes thats what i want calm submissive behaviour'
I just really cant understand how anyone who has any understanding of dog behaviour can think he is good.
He is quite a good showman though, a bit like the parelli people, its all hype. The worst thing isthat people copy it.
 
Foxyfilly said:
The only thing that is good about Mr Millan is that he does
get those lardy arse yanks to exersise their dogs!
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Nice of you to spout xenophobic nonsense.

Having lived in the UK for some ten years now (and working with their dogs for eight) I can certainly attest that I have met my fair share of lardy arse brits, and even more of their lardy arse dogs.

As for Cesar...love him or hate him...to be honest he doesn't "do" it for me in any manner that is fanciful or necessarily as a trainer. I'm not dazzled by his shiny white teeth (I'm a yank so I'm used to that) and his rather smooth looks (to some, but not to me) or way of talking.

However I do find that some of his methods are thought provoking. I have seen some things that he's done that I cringe to see on the TV (I don't think alpha rolling should be televised for any yo-yo to try). But I have taken a few bits and bobs now and again to use in dealing with certain types of dogs. I'm not a behaviorist, and don't want to be one. But I do like the "calm-assertive" approach.

I don't liken him to Parelli. Cesar isn't going around selling orange sticks or head collars that resemble haynets. I don't know that he's going around making videos about training and selling them for squillions either. When this starts happening (or just made aware of it), I'll put him in the same category as Parelli.
 
Pix said:
I'm not entirely sure what 'see it to believe it' means? Does it denote simply working with canines across each spectrum from the saintly to the down right messed up? That's a lot to expect from a pet owner. Perhaps 'go see your local behaviourist/expert trainer' might be better advice to put on tv?

Vizslak- My face is regularly washed too :D
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Its that the owners of any one dog that he works with need to SEE that the dogs behaviour can change if the way they approach the dog changes. Once they have seen it they will be more likely to use an approach more suited to their dog.

He has also provided owners with local groups and trainers to carry on with the training once he leaves in the past, and on more than one occasion he has been called in when other trainers have failed.

I dont mind a good face lick but some of those people are actively "tongueing" with their dogs :D
 
Allover said:
Its that the owners of any one dog that he works with need to SEE that the dogs behaviour can change if the way they approach the dog changes. Once they have seen it they will be more likely to use an approach more suited to their dog.
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Aah I see :)

I dont mind a good face lick but some of those people are actively "tongueing" with their dogs :D
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Eeeeeeeew! Just...... EW!
 
PucciNPoni said:
Cesar isn't going around selling orange sticks or head collars that resemble haynets. I don't know that he's going around making videos about training and selling them for squillions either. When this starts happening (or just made aware of it), I'll put him in the same category as Parelli.
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He's going around selling the "illusion collar" and numerous books and videos.
 
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