Cesar Milan

[Sandstone1]

There is no excuse for beating a animal.
this "old school" method is ridiculous.
Im middle aged and was brought up to respect people and animals.
That does not mean beating them and bragging about it.

The excuse of people not coming across very aggressive animals so not having to use extreme methods is a joke.
Have you ever thought why you come across animals with these problems??
Do you think it may have something to do with the way you treat animals??

Violence breeds violence.

Im not some fluffy person who thinks animals should not know their place and behave themselves.
I have owned rescue dogs and large guarding breeds and have never had to beat a dog.

What you admitted to doing is also illegal.

 

[Onyxia]

It's probably not reached us Yorkshire lot yet. Like indoor loos, caps that may not be flat, and supper options that don't include crumpets.

Hmm,perhaps you are onto something there

I was not bragging about beating a dog. I truthfully said that in extreme circumstance with certain situations it can be a last resort and work.

Ahh, so the end justifies the means does it?
Good God

In my book the way you posted would definatly come under bragging- there is NO remorse and you have decided anyone who does not praise you for your actions is not as experianced as you so is not fit to comment.....

Majority of people do not come across extreme dogs and horses, some are made that way by mishandling and misunderstandings, some are born, not bad but exceedingly difficult and made worse by ignorance of the handler.

I would say beating "untill it felt it,then giving it six" for good measure would show an ignorant handler.
I have had difficult dogs in the past who ALL neded time and education to get right. Along the way there was the odd time a smack was the best way to deal with a behaviour that was dangerous to me,the dog or others but I use ONE smack.

More and more people are wanting to take the softly, softly approach with excuse after excuse for misbehaviour, be it dog, horse or human, liking it to 'natural' training.

How have you come to this conclusion? Is it purely based on findings from the Daily Fail?

If most of you are against giving an animal a punishment that it will feel just tell me how you would have dealt with the situation - or a horse coming at you meaning to really do you harm? Do you think that a clicker or verbal commands are going to stop it?

I am not ani punishment (as my sons lack of toy box this weekend would testify ) but I AM anti abuse.
Hitting to get yourself out of imminant danger is a world away from beating a dog to make you feel better.
You describe a situation where you have the dog held up by the collar while you hit it down the ribs again and again.......and again.........and again untill a random stranger grabs your arm to stop you.
That is NEVER going to be OK to me.

 

[EAST KENT]

:

Hmm,perhaps you are onto something there



Ahh, so the end justifies the means does it?
Good God

In my book the way you posted would definatly come under bragging- there is NO remorse and you have decided anyone who does not praise you for your actions is not as experianced as you so is not fit to comment.....




I would say beating "untill it felt it,then giving it six" for good measure would show an ignorant handler.
I have had difficult dogs in the past who ALL neded time and education to get right. Along the way there was the odd time a smack was the best way to deal with a behaviour that was dangerous to me,the dog or others but I use ONE smack.




How have you come to this conclusion? Is it purely based on findings from the Daily Fail?





I am not ani punishment (as my sons lack of toy box this weekend would testify ) but I AM anti abuse.
Hitting to get yourself out of imminant danger is a world away from beating a dog to make you feel better.
You describe a situation where you have the dog held up by the collar while you hit it down the ribs again and again.......and again.........and again untill a random stranger grabs your arm to stop you.
That is NEVER going to be OK to me.

It sure made my chooks feel better ,as my dog never did it again.

 

[EAST KENT]

Is it? Not seen more then the odd one or two of them around here, perhaps you should move [/QUOTE]

I know a perfectly normal woman,good lifestyle,kids got everything...EXCEPT discipline. Nor would she even do the "ignore,walk away" routine.As a result the kids threw strops,got attention and "their rights"..oh yes one of them said it would "call childline".
And now? One is in jail,the other on probation,the father could`nt stand it and left home. All for the sake of not making boundaries and enforcing them.
So that`s OK? So,in the same vein,it is not done to wallop a dog for a MAJOR misdemeanour..just click your clicker and stuff it with treats? You think Mummie dog does that? No,she rolls a pup over,stands over it making faces to the distance and then stalks off. Animals speak their own language,we are bright (most of us) enough to copy it.
As an eight year old I had a rather vile pony mare charge me ,mouth wide open,in the field when I went to catch it..so I hit the bridge of her nose with the snaffle bridle,she never tried that again...is that wrong too?
And lastly,my first beloved horse was ,although very kind,inclined to be a bit free with her heels as you worked around her.One day,very fed up ,I booted her back,just once.NEVER did it again to anyone. After that she was my best friend for 19 years,total devotion between us and absolute harmony.
Training needs both reward and encouragement,and sometimes correction as well.

 

[Foxhunter49]

As a child my mother smacked my sister and I. If she smacked us then we were left with a hand mark on our backsides. I know because I remember looking at it in the mirror of my dressing table when I was about 5. Now, I cannot remember what I was smacked for but I know that I would have received a warning, a countdown before her hand landed.
When I was home for Christmas and I was about 22, my father came in from delivering presents to family and friends, the worse for drink. I remarked "It's Christmas, Dad's pissed." (Only time he ever got this way)
My Mother's automatic reaction was to grab my arm and slap me five times saying, with each slap, "You knoew I hate that word!"
I had, for a number of years been far bigger and stronger than Mum, but my automatic reaction was to cry. Absolutely no thought of retaliation or even pulling my arm away, she was in charge and that was accepted.
She did immediately apologise saying she had no right to do slap me as she had but it was automatic for her to correct hard and as automatic for me to cry. (She could still leave finger marks! LOL)

Smacking was accepted back then just as it is frowned upon now. Sure, there are better ways if only they were followed through by every parent.

The incident with Hannah happened well over 30 years ago, one smack did not break through her red zone and one that she did feel was not enough to snap her out of it.

I did not loose my temper, if I had then she would have probably been punched in the head and certainly hurt far more than a soft leather lead did.

As I have said previously Hannah would have come with me rather than go with my cousin.

It is a matter of using common sense with teaching anything, sometimes reverse psychology has to be used. Generally tight boundaries and consistency are enough these as the rules are ingrained, can be slackened off and the animal allowed to think for itself and show its character, dog, human or horse.

 

[Foxhunter49]

The excuse of people not coming across very aggressive animals so not having to use extreme methods is a joke.
Have you ever thought why you come across animals with these problems??
Do you think it may have something to do with the way you treat animals??

The reason I come across very aggressive animals is because they are sent to me to see if I can turn them around. I have never - ever - raised an animal of my own that was this way. Nor have I ever had to hit them because the rules were there from the start.

Violence breeds violence.

Not necessarily so. Take the biggest bully who has been pushing a shoving people around using violence both mental and physical and give them a darn good punch on the nose and see how they think twice about bullying you or yours again.

 

[Sandstone1]

As a child my mother smacked my sister and I. If she smacked us then we were left with a hand mark on our backsides. I know because I remember looking at it in the mirror of my dressing table when I was about 5. Now, I cannot remember what I was smacked for but I know that I would have received a warning, a countdown before her hand landed.
When I was home for Christmas and I was about 22, my father came in from delivering presents to family and friends, the worse for drink. I remarked "It's Christmas, Dad's pissed." (Only time he ever got this way)
My Mother's automatic reaction was to grab my arm and slap me five times saying, with each slap, "You knoew I hate that word!"
I had, for a number of years been far bigger and stronger than Mum, but my automatic reaction was to cry. Absolutely no thought of retaliation or even pulling my arm away, she was in charge and that was accepted.
She did immediately apologise saying she had no right to do slap me as she had but it was automatic for her to correct hard and as automatic for me to cry. (She could still leave finger marks! LOL)

Smacking was accepted back then just as it is frowned upon now. Sure, there are better ways if only they were followed through by every parent.

The incident with Hannah happened well over 30 years ago, one smack did not break through her red zone and one that she did feel was not enough to snap her out of it.

I did not loose my temper, if I had then she would have probably been punched in the head and certainly hurt far more than a soft leather lead did.

As I have said previously Hannah would have come with me rather than go with my cousin.

It is a matter of using common sense with teaching anything, sometimes reverse psychology has to be used. Generally tight boundaries and consistency are enough these as the rules are ingrained, can be slackened off and the animal allowed to think for itself and show its character, dog, human or horse.

This post explains a lot.
Violence does breed violence, you have just confirmed this.

 

[EAST KENT]

So,what would YOU do..buy the sod choccies to bribe him into keeping off your back??

 

[Sandstone1]

No choc is bad for dogs didnt you know?

 

[EAST KENT]

You evaded the question! Com`on?

 

[Onyxia]

Was a damn good evasion
I would have thought the chickin chaser was one fo the few times when something like a ECT coller is likely to work- go near the birds and bad things happen.
That or better fences

As I have said before violent acts to protect yourself or others in your care isnot the same a giving an animal a damn "good" wallop because you don't know any better way to deal with it.
I would also have given the pony a clout, had you done nothing it would have hurt you and the odds are it would have been bad.

 

[CorvusCorax]

TBH an e-collar should not be used as a punishment, that's where human temper creeps in and the tool is abused. E-collars should be used on a low setting as a remote 'hey - over here! I was talking to you!' to break the dog's fixation and get it's attention, the same way as you would tug somebody by the arm or click your fingers to get their attention. Ramping up the level and going BAD DOG - ZAP is just as bad as hitting a dog. THAT is why people want them banned.

 

[Alec Swan]

I continue to read this thread, with genuine interest.

Alec.

 

[Pix]

I continue to read this thread, with genuine interest.

Alec.

Well now, that's just outright cheating. You have to put your 2p in too!

Foxhunter - I'd be absolutely horrified if my Mum slapped me like that when I was a 22 year old adult! Particularly if the offence was unintentionally saying a word she didn't like. I'm not sure if I'd burst into laughter or just stare open mouthed. I did have my legs slapped when I was very little, if I really, really pushed things, but it wasn't an automatic response by any means. I cannot imagine what I'd have to do to to get a slap, even on the arm, as an adult. Equally, I cannot imagine striking my Mum, no matter how hurtful or nasty she can get.

I'm all for discipline, but I think mutual respect has it's place too, particularly among adults. Did you not resent her reaction at all or feel that it was a bit over the top?

 

[Foxhunter49]

All of you have every right to your opinion but not one of you have said what you would have done to stop this dog from fighting.
Would you have forced her to always wear a muzzle when out? Always kept her on a leash?

My cousin had been through nearly three years of trainers working with her and the dog and non had been able to stop her from attacking another dog if she saw one.

It was a case of offering her to the RAF and the ex RAF dog handler who had been working with her was doubtful they would take her, or being PTS.

I would like to know just how you would have dealt with the situation.

 

[Pix]

All of you have every right to your opinion but not one of you have said what you would have done to stop this dog from fighting.
Would you have forced her to always wear a muzzle when out? Always kept her on a leash?

My cousin had been through nearly three years of trainers working with her and the dog and non had been able to stop her from attacking another dog if she saw one.

It was a case of offering her to the RAF and the ex RAF dog handler who had been working with her was doubtful they would take her, or being PTS.

I would like to know just how you would have dealt with the situation.

To be fair, it's hard for somebody to say how they'd approach the problem without knowing the dog. This doesn't mean that everyone would do the same as you though. "I'm not sure" isn't the same as "I'd instinctively do the same". If I'm honest I probably wouldn't have had her off the lead somewhere exciting where other dogs were playing, even if she was fine at home. From the little you say of her reaction to Gen on the beach I'd have snapped the lead back on and marched her off. That would end the situation and given me time to formulate a "plan of attack" based on what I'd seen. Whether that plan was based around clickers and poisonous chocolate treats or corrections based of course depends on the dog I can honestly say giving her ribs six of the best with the lead wouldn't occur to me. Some people think it's OK, others don't, for me it's not on my radar and I find it a little shocking.

 

[EAST KENT]

All of you have every right to your opinion but not one of you have said what you would have done to stop this dog from fighting.
Would you have forced her to always wear a muzzle when out? Always kept her on a leash?

My cousin had been through nearly three years of trainers working with her and the dog and non had been able to stop her from attacking another dog if she saw one.

It was a case of offering her to the RAF and the ex RAF dog handler who had been working with her was doubtful they would take her, or being PTS.

I would like to know just how you would have dealt with the situation.

As it worked then I would hope to have the sense to do as you did! As for my collie,the chooks were free range,I expect any of my dogs to know better ,and an E collar was`nt available back then.Moss would sneak off to do her deed,but that time she was caught paws down.Anyway it worked;it is exactly the same methods used with pack hounds too,as even now I doubt they`d invest in an e collar and remote. Point is ,pack hounds that kill chooks/pheasants/deer or sheep get lead poisoning if it cannot be cured of them by traditional methods.

 

[Alec Swan]

Right, well I'm probably going to be shot at, but it wont be for the first time!!

Dogs, to me are my servants. Within that they are also my near constant companions. I take my responsibilities seriously, but dogs are not my friends. I reserve that for the two legged variety.

For any owner/handler, the dog must respect his senior. Respect is made up, in part, of fear. Fear of causing offence, or being spoken to harshly. How we achieve that necessary level of respect, is a good question.

I no longer take in other peoples cast offs, or **** ups. I accept that others do, and for all the right reasons, but I truly believe, that once a dog has learnt antisocial, or unacceptable behaviour, then what ever the degree of success, of the trainer, rather as an addict, the dog will all so often slip back, into his old ways, given anything but positive handling. Better, I think to stop the dog from going wrong in the first place.

Violence? That's a difficult one. I have previously dished out some serious hidings, and the need was all so often because I wasn't looking at the dog, I'd allowed him to be away from the corner of my eye. I also think that there are those dogs which, when they are driven by their own rage, then violence can all so often encourage further impulsion. At that stage, they can then become a danger to the handler.

I've watched others, Windmill, or Helicopter a dog. I find it distasteful, but once had a very difficult dog, who to preempt an attack upon me, I pulled over a gate until he was unconscious. When he came-to he was subdued, but learnt little from it. His owner then told me that the dog had been to two others, who'd sent him back as unmanageable. By agreement, I put him down.

All so many of the known aggressive breeds, are bred by idiots, and sold on to clowns.

For permanent correction, violence serves little purpose. For breaking into a young dogs mind, one that wont listen, then there may be room for "the adjusting of breaks", but once entrenched behaviour is viewed, it takes someone special (not me!), to sort them out.

As another pointed out, for the truly wooden headed youngsters, I would treat them as their mother would; over power them, pin them to the ground, and stick nine yards of "EFFS" into them.

Just my thoughts!!

Alec.

 

[Spudlet]

Fortunately, it is now widely recognised that there are now better ways to train a dog, and these methods are becoming more widely disseminated. This includes remedial work with 'problem' dogs. Sadly there is still a huge amount of ignorance in the dog world about how dogs learn and how their minds work, as evidenced here.

I have to admit, this thread is the closest I have come to deactivating my account as I do not wish to be associated with some of the views on this thread in any way at all. Violence against animals is deplorable. And there are certainly people on here who I would never allow within a mile of any animal of mine.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Right, well I'm probably going to be shot at, but it wont be for the first time!!

Dogs, to me are my servants. Within that they are also my near constant companions. I take my responsibilities seriously, but dogs are not my friends. I reserve that for the two legged variety.

For any owner/handler, the dog must respect his senior. Respect is made up, in part, of fear. Fear of causing offence, or being spoken to harshly. How we achieve that necessary level of respect, is a good question.

I no longer take in other peoples cast offs, or **** ups. I accept that others do, and for all the right reasons, but I truly believe, that once a dog has learnt antisocial, or unacceptable behaviour, then what ever the degree of success, of the trainer, rather as an addict, the dog will all so often slip back, into his old ways, given anything but positive handling. Better, I think to stop the dog from going wrong in the first place.

Violence? That's a difficult one. I have previously dished out some serious hidings, and the need was all so often because I wasn't looking at the dog, I'd allowed him to be away from the corner of my eye. I also think that there are those dogs which, when they are driven by their own rage, then violence can all so often encourage further impulsion. At that stage, they can then become a danger to the handler.

I've watched others, Windmill, or Helicopter a dog. I find it distasteful, but once had a very difficult dog, who to preempt an attack upon me, I pulled over a gate until he was unconscious. When he came-to he was subdued, but learnt little from it. His owner then told me that the dog had been to two others, who'd sent him back as unmanageable. By agreement, I put him down.

All so many of the known aggressive breeds, are bred by idiots, and sold on to clowns.

For permanent correction, violence serves little purpose. For breaking into a young dogs mind, one that wont listen, then there may be room for "the adjusting of breaks", but once entrenched behaviour is viewed, it takes someone special (not me!), to sort them out.

As another pointed out, for the truly wooden headed youngsters, I would treat them as their mother would; over power them, pin them to the ground, and stick nine yards of "EFFS" into them.

Just my thoughts!!

Alec.

Once you are using fear as part of your training you have failed, Im not against punishing a dog but I would be broken hearted if I thought my dogs feared me.

Dogs can be turned around as anyone who saw the Yesterday programme about Dogs of war in the Pacific can testify, after the war these dogs were put into intensive training and only about 5 failed to make it back to Civvy Street, a lot of these went back to families with small children without incident.

Im an older lady and probabley brought up old school but as a child being sent to my bedroom without supper was the worse punishment ever.

I think and Im not aiming this at anyone in particular there are some really good dog trainers out there who dont knock 7 tons of s**t out of dogs and its up to us as responsible dog owners to try some of these methods. As I stated elsewhere its sensible to have more than one tool in your tool-box.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Alec (not knocking, just interested ), an interesting post, but may I ask, I have seen you and others dismiss e-collars and pinch collars as cruel training aids in the past - how does giving a dog a hiding or depriving oxygen to the extent where it passes out (which as I am sure you will agree is a last resort when an extremely dominant or aggressive dog is intent on doing serious harm to a human or another dog - when the only other option is shooting it) compare to a tickle or a pop high up on the throat?

 

[Alec Swan]

........ the dog must respect his senior. Respect is made up, in part, of fear. Fear of causing offence, or being spoken to harshly. How we achieve that necessary level of respect, is a good question.

.......

So how do we arrive at the happy state where a dog respects his owner/handler? I've had some gundog, some GSDs and some collie pups, who were born with a will to listen. I've also had those who weren't!!

For those that aren't, they go through a process, where they will listen to me, and when they do, then the breaks are relaxed, they learn that I will be listened to, obeyed, and then we generally get on. It's a simple learning process.

Violence towards a dog, properly used, does have a place, but when it becomes the only form of, or a constant form of control, it then becomes a complete waist of time. That's what I think.

Dunno!!

Alec.

 

[Luci07]

Food for thought. I do have 3 high energy dogs. I don't have them perfectly trained (IMO a properly trained dog should be able to walk off lead and LEAVE other dogs/people alone when requested). Second dog will mug total strangers believing that all will love him but not everyone feels the way I do about small red staffie boys.

Just makes me very glad that, in the real light of day, my dogs are not actually very tricky. Just stick to the golden rule of owning a stafford. A tired stafford is a well behaved staffie!

 

[Alec Swan]

Alec (not knocking, just interested ), an interesting post, but may I ask, I have seen you and others dismiss e-collars and pinch collars as cruel training aids in the past - how does giving a dog a hiding or depriving oxygen to the extent where it passes out (which as I am sure you will agree is a last resort when an extremely dominant or aggressive dog is intent on doing serious harm to a human or another dog - when the only other option is shooting it) compare to a tickle or a pop high up on the throat?

C_C, knock away, I'm here to be told, no matter how dogmatic my views!

My views on E-collars, spiked collars, halties and any aid, in general, is that they are a poor man's system towards getting a dog to listen. Others will disagree with me. I remember, a year or so back when I had a very modest rant about leads. My argument was (and still is), that dogs should learn to walk to heal off the lead, and before it goes on to the lead, and strangely, there were those who agreed that it was their experience, too! The point is, that dogs learn, when restricted by a lead, exactly where their handler is. Take the lead off, and the dog has to consider his handler, and importantly, his positioning.

It's all to do with the relationship which I have with a dog. I want to be able to stop a dog at 500m, without resorting to "aids" (I hate them, so do the dogs, mostly!). Life without aids, at the start of a puppy's life, makes subsequent progress so much easier, I feel.

What I call "Hand training", in a yard, the house, any confined space will do, is the start, and from there, it's extended.

Somewhere between four and seven months, I want a dog to focus on me, not exclusively, but when I speak, then he listens. From there we will make progress.

All the half-jobs, which I've ever made with a dog, have always been because of the previous cock-ups of others. Today I rear and bring up my dogs, as puppies. I would always advise that the difficult or dangerous, having reached the age of perhaps two years, be sent to heaven. Not always, but so often, it's the kinder route, for man and dog.

Alec.

 

[lexiedhb]

I agree with some parts of what you have said Alec, (violence towards any animal IMO is only if they themselves are in danger or are about to damage someone else) but its very easy to make these sweeping statements when you have given up on those more difficult dogs and now only raise pups from birth- far easier to start with a blank canvas tha have to try and paint over someones elses painting.

 

[Spudlet]

If your advice had been followed, my dog would be dead, rather than having been an utter star this weekend.

Excellent behaviour, achieved without violence, beating etc, and reinforced this weekend with verbal praise alone. Not rocket science. Just perseverance, consistency and kindness - a highly underrated training aid.

 

[EAST KENT]

Yesterday one of the Welfare bullies was returned. I had spent many months stabilising a hyper,clothe headed dog,not even lead trained,into a dog ,who although keen and sharp,was "amenable to discipline",as bull terriers need to be.This was done by feeding proper BARF entirely,and training with check chain ,training lead with reward once she started to listen a bit,think it is now called "checking in".
The new owner claimed he would follow all my guide lines,yeah..right. Hetti returned hyper out of her head,thin and bloodied. It turned out he had fed her BAKERS,as "it is so difficult to get chicken wings".
To my credit,I did not call him what I so wanted to,but did say that the dreadful food was part of her problem undoubtedly. It is now obvious too,that she has been walloped severely..she hit the deck when I examined her for parasites.OK,so it is start again time,but are`nt people the pits
I like this dog,she is very intelligent ,quick witted and so hope the right home turns up,or it will be yet another misfit who lives here!

 

[Foxhunter49]

listen.[/B] Others will disagree with me. I remember, a year or so back when I had a very modest rant about leads. My argument was (and still is), that dogs should learn to walk to heal off the lead, and before it goes on to the lead, and strangely, there were those who agreed that it was their experience, too! The point is, that dogs learn, when restricted by a lead, exactly where their handler is. Take the lead off, and the dog has to consider his handler, and importantly, his positioning.

It's all to do with the relationship which I have with a dog. I want to be able to stop a dog at 500m, without resorting to "aids" (I hate them, so do the dogs, mostly!). Life without aids, at the start of a puppy's life, makes subsequent progress so much easier, I feel.

What I call "Hand training", in a yard, the house, any confined space will do, is the start, and from there, it's extended.

Somewhere between four and seven months, I want a dog to focus on me, not exclusively, but when I speak, then he listens. From there we will make progress.

Alec.

Alec, you put it far more succinctly than ever I could. I too prefer to train a dog to heel off a lead rather than on one.
The only time I have ever used an e-collar was for a dog that persistently chased sheep and I didn't have a nasty enough ram or ewe with lambs to let him learn the really hard way. I also agree about your definition of respect.

 

[blackcob]

Rather like the last thread on this subject, Alec seems to be coming from a highly idealised situation with young pups of biddable breeding, where fair and effective training will reap rewards very quickly.

Once again I invite him to take on an adolescent dog of a breed purposely designed to ignore the handler, for whom every breed society in the world states that the dog must not be allowed off a lead, who has received no socialisation or adequate exercise up until the point that it comes into your care, and see what he can do with that.

Tongue firmly in cheek, of course, but (disgustingly smugly, I admit ) I consider mine the bigger victory.

 

[EAST KENT]

Alec, I would just love you to try a bull terrier !! Book your place in the Priory first though.