Chaff or no Chaff?

I don't as a rule feed a chaff but if I had to, the only one I would want to feed would be the Graze On one which is chopped grass and nothing else added, likewise their grass pellets; both good clean feeds with no additives.
 
Tnavas said:
Regardless of hay and grazing, adding chaff or beet to the feed slows the passage of the food through the digestive system allowing enzymes and bacteria to do their work properly. This helps reduce the potential for colic and also hind gut acidosis.
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but my point is that there isn't necessarily any need to add it to the bucket unless you are witholding forage either side.
 
Tnavas said:
See above post!
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I'm confused. It's perfectly possible to provide a horse with a high fibre, low sugar, low starch diet (in order to promote good digestive health/minimize hind gut acidosis) without feeding it chaff . . .

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of many of the "modern" feeds on the market today, but it still possible to navigate through the mine field and with the application of common sense provide a healthy, balanced diet for our horses . . . without chaff.

P
 
ester said:
but my point is that there isn't necessarily any need to add it to the bucket unless you are witholding forage either side.
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You still need to make that concentrate 'safe' for the horse to eat and you do that by adding a forage/fibre to the mix. Regardless of what the horse has eaten either side of the feed you need to ensure the bucket feed is as close to natural as possible to ensure that it is safely digested.

Polar skype, I think you have misunderstood my post, I suggest feeding a good forage/fibre source such as chaff or beet pulp with a concentrate food. Copra though fibre is very fine and generally not fed in sufficient quantity to be of much help.
 
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Tnavas said:
You still need to make that concentrate 'safe' for the horse to eat and you do that by adding a forage/fibre to the mix. Regardless of what the horse has eaten either side of the feed you need to ensure the bucket feed is as close to natural as possible to ensure that it is safely digested.
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Sigh. But it still depends on what is actually IN the bucket . . . and whether the bucket feed is fed alongside ad lib forage (of any description - grazing, hay/haylage/readigrass or similar).

P
 
PolarSkye said:
Sigh. But it still depends on what is actually IN the bucket . . . and whether the bucket feed is fed alongside ad lib forage (of any description - grazing, hay/haylage/readigrass or similar).

P
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So what is IN your bucket? Many modern feeds once wet become a sludgy pulp which doesn't travel well through the digestive system.

An experiment I give my students to do is to put various different feeds into beakers of water and leave for 20mins, the average time food is in the stomach.

When horse and pony cubes first hit the market the cases of colic increased as people fed them on their own, they turned to sludge and got themselves jammed up in the caecum. Feeding chaff or bran (at the time) or Sugarbeet prevented this from happening.
 
Tnavas said:
When horse and pony cubes first hit the market the cases of colic increased as people fed them on their own, they turned to sludge and got themselves jammed up in the caecum. Feeding chaff or bran (at the time) or Sugarbeet prevented this from happening.
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And here's my issue/confusion . . . you are assuming that people feed "nuts" on their own . . . which is a bit of a leap (well, ok, it's a chasm). I know my own horse goes into his stable, tucks into his hay/haylage and THEN gets his dinner . . . which contains a pelleted feed, linseed, chaff (for now, but not for long) and (in the winter) copra and/or sugarbeet. He has plenty of grass in the field, which is supplemented (when necessary) with hay and haylage so that he is NEVER without access to forage to keep his gut moving. Oh, and he is bedded on straw, which he can (and does) also nibble.

Here's the thing . . . he isn't unique or special and neither am I in the way I keep/manage him. I doubt very much that removing chaff from his bucket feed with have any effect at all . . . his gut isn't going to suddenly seize up because there isn't some form of chopped straw passing through his system for the whole five minutes it takes to eat his dinner.

P
 
PolarSkye said:
And here's my issue/confusion . . . you are assuming that people feed "nuts" on their own . . . which is a bit of a leap (well, ok, it's a chasm). I know my own horse goes into his stable, tucks into his hay/haylage and THEN gets his dinner . . . which contains a pelleted feed, linseed, chaff (for now, but not for long) and (in the winter) copra and/or sugarbeet. He has plenty of grass in the field, which is supplemented (when necessary) with hay and haylage so that he is NEVER without access to forage to keep his gut moving. Oh, and he is bedded on straw, which he can (and does) also nibble.

Here's the thing . . . he isn't unique or special and neither am I in the way I keep/manage him. I doubt very much that removing chaff from his bucket feed with have any effect at all . . . his gut isn't going to suddenly seize up because there isn't some form of chopped straw passing through his system for the whole five minutes it takes to eat his dinner.

P
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I understand where you are coming from, you do say though that you also feed Sugarbeet, this works just as well as chaff and was what we fed for many years to all our horses as we had no access to a chaff cutter, buying bagged chaff didn't exist.

The concentrate itself, what sort of texture is it, I sited the pony cube thing because like many modern feeds it was a reconstituted food, being grass and grains ground to poder and then glued back together again. Many extruded feeds are just like that, which is the reason for students doing the experiment with the concentrate and water.

Regardless of wether I am feeding a stabled horse or one that is out in the paddock I always add a forage/fibre to the feed and to date no horses in my care have ever had colic, over 40+yrs these amount to hundreds.
 
Tnavas said:
Having done an Equine Nutrition Diploma course recently you are so very wrong. The directive is to ALWAYS feed a high fibre diet, modern foods are causing a lot of dietary problems because they have minimal fibre.

A horses digestive system is designed to work most successfully on FIBRE only.
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You have misinterpreted my post slightly, which was stating why people used to feed chaff to horses who were on oats or barley as the main part of the diet, to slow down eating, my horses do not get chaff as they have ad lib hay and a token hi fibre feed, fast fibre usually which does not require chaff to be added, they are on almost 100% fibre, some oil is added with vits and mins.
My view on modern diets is probably wrong as I thought people did know, on here at least, that it should be fibre based and that mixes are to be avoided due to the high sugar content, I must remember that not everyone is aware.
 
Tnavas said:
So what is IN your bucket? Many modern feeds once wet become a sludgy pulp which doesn't travel well through the digestive system.

.
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but sugarbeet is different?

PS I think we are on the same hymn sheet here ;)

I really don't think that if Frank had his 2 x 1 kg scoops of oats in the morning/pm which would take him < 5 min in between his ad lib hay/grass it would soon get mixed up with fibre anyway.
 
Fast fibre is just glorified straw, linseed husks and Sugarbeet, how does that compare price wish with a bag of meadow or Lucerne chaff.
Composition:
Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Linseed Expeller (7.4%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Soya (bean) Oil, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides
 
Tnavas said:
Fast fibre is just glorified straw, linseed husks and Sugarbeet, how does that compare price wish with a bag of meadow or Lucerne chaff.
Composition:
Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Linseed Expeller (7.4%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Soya (bean) Oil, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides
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But feeding sugarbeet instead of chaff is ok? Like I said, I'm confused . . . and in disagreement.

P
 
PolarSkye said:
But feeding sugarbeet instead of chaff is ok? Like I said, I'm confused . . . and in disagreement.

P
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You've got me confused too! :D yes feeding Sugarbeet is great as it is also an excellent fibre source. So long as there is a good fibre source with the concentrate to open it up, spread it out so that it doesn't go through the digestive system in a block of concentrate.
 
Tnavas said:
Fast fibre is just glorified straw, linseed husks and Sugarbeet, how does that compare price wish with a bag of meadow or Lucerne chaff.
Composition:
Nutritionally Improved Straw, Oat Feed, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Linseed Expeller (7.4%), Grass Meal, Di-calcium Phosphate, Soya (bean) Oil, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Mint, Yeast, Fructo-oligosaccharides
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I know, having fed it in the past when having a good doer out of work to carry supplements being about as a low a DE as you can get and it being reasonably palatable.

I have to say I cannot see how it - or sugar beet wouldn't travel well through the digestive system?
 
ester said:
I have to say I cannot see how it - or sugar beet wouldn't travel well through the digestive system?
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Of course it will travel well through the digestive system, it's fibre, not sure what you are meaning.

My comment about it being just glorified straw. Why would you pay so much for this sort of mix when you can supply chaff and beet pulp at a fraction of the price?
 
Well I decided to give my boy his tea tonight minus the ready grass I usually give. What a difference! Usually his food gets kicked and pawed all over the stable while he digs through it. But he just ate it from the bowl! I guess chaff isn't something he likes!
 
I've always fed mine chaff and I don't think it's something I would change.

The mains reasons for this are:

-His digestive system is used to it
-I personally believe it slows his eating down, stopping his bolting
-Most of his diet should be forage
-The roughage helps his digestive system

But that's only me, I think it differs depending on the situation and horse.
 
sometimes yes sometimes no...

Bruce is only getting an alfalfa based chaff atm as its the only calories he needs and id rather he got it from fibre than a cube of dubious content! it damps down enough to hold his supps.

Fig-yes as he gets big fibre based feeds to nibble at for hours and will eat more fibre this way than a small high calorie feed and then hay(which he picks at and doesnt really get stuck in to). He holds his weight better this way.

Goofy-yes currently just to give him a bit of something to bulk up his small ration of winergy growth really to keep him occupied whilst the other eat. When grown up and in full work he will prob just get a scoop before work to line his tummy but not in his actual feed as suspect he will be on calorie watch when he stops growing and he has no issues hoovering down hay!!!!!!
 
I have never seen chaff for sale over here in North America. I don't feed chaff anyway and wouldn't even if it was available as I see it as totally pointless within my feeding programme.
 
I grew up in a non chaff environment. People had stopped cutting their own and chaff cutters were something referred to in old pony books however bagged chaff were not available. Apart from Spillers pony nuts it was all straights own brand from the local feed merchants.

It was when I returned to riding in the 90's after a long break that I came across molassed chaff and alfalfa for the first time.
 
criso said:
I grew up in a non chaff environment. People had stopped cutting their own and chaff cutters were something referred to in old pony books however bagged chaff were not available. Apart from Spillers pony nuts it was all straights own brand from the local feed merchants.

It was when I returned to riding in the 90's after a long break that I came across molassed chaff and alfalfa for the first time.
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I remember that time, we fed Sugarbeet in its place with no problems that people seem to have invented now
 
Spring Feather said:
I feed balancers.
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BAlancers come in various types, are you referring to the type that is highly concentrated compound of vitamins, minerals & proteins which are fed in a very small quantity? Or the type that is a full feed of Carbs, proteins, vitamins & minerals.

Neither contain any significant fibre content.

criso - we fed it year round to everything, horses, ponies, in or out. We never had any of these current modern problems - everyone was always sound and all worked well
 
Palindrome said:
The stomach will empty when it is full so what makes feed go slowly is feeding hard feed in small amounts, so in that respect chaff bulking out the hard feed won't be helpful.

Furthermore, the saliva produced during chewing doesn't serve to digest but only lubricates. The amount of saliva produced by the horse eating his bucket feed will be negligible compared to the amount produced by eating forage.

All in all it depends on the individual horse's needs like always and what the owner is feeding. I feed high fibre nuts with some supplements and don't add a chaff. Now if I was feeding straight oats I would probably add a handful of alfalfa chaff if only to balance phosphorus to calcium.
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Just wanted to point out that saliva does begin digestion - it contains amylase, amongst other enzymes, which begin digestion of food prior to it hitting the stomach. Hence why dry chaff is good as it promotes saliva production (over feeding wet feeds, especially if made sloppy is bad because of this).

Regarding chaff, if you don't need bulk, then you don't necessarily need it. We feed all of ours chaff before riding to stop acid splash, and feed chaff to dry out the copra so feeds are not too damp, also for bulking out.
 
Tnavas said:
criso - we fed it year round to everything, horses, ponies, in or out. We never had any of these current modern problems - everyone was always sound and all worked well
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Sugarbeet was never fed to any of the good doers only the ones that needed a bit more help over winter. There was too much grass around in south devon for anything to need weight gain in summer.

I could argue that we had none of the modern problems, never saw a colic case and one laminitis over many years and we never fed chaff (the riding school ponies got a scoop of oats when they worked nothing else) however I suspect it is much more complex than one feed item.
 
We are lucky here to still have access to good quality chaff that hasn't been mucked around with. It still comes in a hessian chaff sack.

I feed a small amount of luceren chaff every day to everyone, along with oats and hemp seed cake. They are on grass 24/7, but have been on the same patch of grass for years. Some variety in the diet is never a bad thing, I think.

Feed routines will always depend on making the best of what is available.
 
Tnavas said:
BAlancers come in various types, are you referring to the type that is highly concentrated compound of vitamins, minerals & proteins which are fed in a very small quantity?
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Yes

Neither contain any significant fibre content.
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I don't buy hardfeed to give my horses fibre; they have ad-lib alfalfa hay and tons of grazing.
 
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