Challenge accepted, horse..

Was he scared of that end of the arena before the trailers moved there?

tbh, the only way with a true scared horse is to sit completely relaxed and act as though nothing it wrong with whatever they are looking at. Hard to do sometimes, but if you are relaxed and not bothered the horse will read you and realise that its not as scary as first thought. Eg. everytime he overreacts to something or you see something coming up (like the end of the arena) you probably either shorten the reins or tense up in the saddle. Then starts to over act even more, as you are tense so horse thinks that there is something very scary for sure coming up.
It's very hard to sit relaxed on a horse that is bucking/spinning but it can be done :)

Your horse sounds tricky and tbh, maybe more tricky than you can manage. It might be a case of not trying to dominate or "win" this battle with him, as there are always more battles after, but instead to really ask yourself if you enjoy riding him. Are you achieving what you wanted to with him?

I'm very determined and don't like giving up on things, but even I have asked in the past was it worth pushing and pushing horse to do something I want when horse clearly didn't want to. When I sold last horse (who was incredibly lazy xc but stunning, talented at jumping/showing & good to hack) and bought billy, it was like a breath of fresh air. To sit on a horse who actually wants to do something and works with you rather than against is a fantastic feeling.
Billy hasn't always been sailing, after all he was 4, but life was much easier because he tried! Even when I took him to a hunt ride 3 days after buying him, he got so worked up that he was jumping without looking, was rearing as eager to get going and was quite a handful tbh - especially as he's 17h. But the "feeling" I got from him then was only excitement, happiness and basically a sense of fun bubbling up away inside him till he literally burst. I still remember that exact feeling 6 years later - there was no malice, no trying to get rid of me, no naughtiness - just pure happiness. a wonderful feeling. I knew then for definite that he was the horse for me!!
Do you get the feeling that you suit your horse? or are you trying to make the horse suit you?

Tbh I thought my previous horse was great, and did everything asked (other than go forwards xc; annoyingly never lost a speed round sj!!) but after getting Billy it really showed up how much time I wasted on previous horse slogging away for nothing. And we were successful, but everything was hard work, and it really shouldn't be as I found out after!

You talk about his potential - every horse has potential but not every horse can get it out, no matter how great they could be. Is it worth thinking about maybe giving him the winter off and letting everything settle in his mind, giving him a break and then trying again early spring? sometimes the more you work the more problems you create, when the solution is to step back and let them consolidate.
 
only_me said:
Was he scared of that end of the arena before the trailers moved there?

tbh, the only way with a true scared horse is to sit completely relaxed and act as though nothing it wrong with whatever they are looking at. Hard to do sometimes, but if you are relaxed and not bothered the horse will read you and realise that its not as scary as first thought. Eg. everytime he overreacts to something or you see something coming up (like the end of the arena) you probably either shorten the reins or tense up in the saddle. Then starts to over act even more, as you are tense so horse thinks that there is something very scary for sure coming up.
It's very hard to sit relaxed on a horse that is bucking/spinning but it can be done :)

Your horse sounds tricky and tbh, maybe more tricky than you can manage. It might be a case of not trying to dominate or "win" this battle with him, as there are always more battles after, but instead to really ask yourself if you enjoy riding him. Are you achieving what you wanted to with him?

I'm very determined and don't like giving up on things, but even I have asked in the past was it worth pushing and pushing horse to do something I want when horse clearly didn't want to. When I sold last horse (who was incredibly lazy xc but stunning, talented at jumping/showing & good to hack) and bought billy, it was like a breath of fresh air. To sit on a horse who actually wants to do something and works with you rather than against is a fantastic feeling.
Billy hasn't always been sailing, after all he was 4, but life was much easier because he tried! Even when I took him to a hunt ride 3 days after buying him, he got so worked up that he was jumping without looking, was rearing as eager to get going and was quite a handful tbh - especially as he's 17h. But the "feeling" I got from him then was only excitement, happiness and basically a sense of fun bubbling up away inside him till he literally burst. I still remember that exact feeling 6 years later - there was no malice, no trying to get rid of me, no naughtiness - just pure happiness. a wonderful feeling. I knew then for definite that he was the horse for me!!
Do you get the feeling that you suit your horse? or are you trying to make the horse suit you?

Tbh I thought my previous horse was great, and did everything asked (other than go forwards xc; annoyingly never lost a speed round sj!!) but after getting Billy it really showed up how much time I wasted on previous horse slogging away for nothing. And we were successful, but everything was hard work, and it really shouldn't be as I found out after!

You talk about his potential - every horse has potential but not every horse can get it out, no matter how great they could be. Is it worth thinking about maybe giving him the winter off and letting everything settle in his mind, giving him a break and then trying again early spring? sometimes the more you work the more problems you create, when the solution is to step back and let them consolidate.
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No he wasnt, but he was a little iffy about where they were before. Now he is fine with the original location of the trailers, and not happy with the new location. Its definitely the trailers, but I cant exactly move them. Dont have one to practice loading him into to show him they wont eat him either, not that he has never been in a trailer as he has, but I dunno if that might help?

Yeah it is very tricky to stay relaxed and ignore him. I do try though as much as I can, but doesnt seem to be enough. Even when pro's get on him though and are relaxed, he's still got issues.

I do enjoy riding him, he is fun when he is behaving and very sweet. Taking him into the field is great, we can do lots of work in there with no issues, and do canter work easily without him being silly like some of them do. He's not strong at all and even when he does spook and runs, he will stop quite easily. I dont like the spinning so much, but he will still stop eventually. He is a lovely horse to ride normally, he's not nasty about any of this, it does seem to be a case of he wants to get his way which is to not go down to the bottom end. But there is nothing malicious, he doesnt know how to be malicious. We have taken him out to one show and although I didnt get to ride as they ran inhand and ridden at the same time (when they said they wouldnt), he was pretty well behaved for a first outing. He wouldnt stand still in the line up, but it wasnt like rudeness or nastiness for that, he was just bored of standing around and wanted to look at more interesting things. Otherwise he just stood at the trailer eating his hay and watching everything going on.

I think I can suit him, I can ride him well when we're on a good day, but its depressing on bad days when he wont listen to me at all and refuses to learn. Just part of the parcel of training I guess.

He is one that can get his potential out, he used to show off a lot if people watched and still does to an extent actually. Maybe giving him winter off will refresh his mind but I figured since he is now 7 that he should be more focused and that a winter break was more to refresh a younger mind? Although you could argue his mind is young since his training before I got him was barely there. He is very far behind where he should be for certain, which is also a little depressing but we'll get there.

The instructor has even seen him in the field and after telling me from the first lesson to get rid of him, after my 3rd lesson which was in the field, he said he was wrong and that the horse is perfect for me and that we just need to work on the arena. Now my horse is dangerous and I should sell him again. You can see why I am a bit confused, but I dont want to give up on him.
 
The days he "refuses" to learn I would be going back to basics and even spending the whole session in walk playing with different movements. It could be a case of trying to learn new things too quickly without consolidating the previous new work. E.g. When I taught bill changes I didn't do them every session because a) would have made him sore constantly using new muscles b) doing them too often would make him expect them and c) if he became sore then he would associate that movement with pain and create a whole new set of issues to work through.
Maybe go right back to beginning and start there, adding in something more when he feels solid in the basic work and repeat?

A winter off can benefit many horses, no matter what age. They can have a break and just be a horse for a bit, also can give you a new perspective on things so when start back up again not getting stressed out about his behaviour etc. :)

From all you've said, it would be worth getting a full lameness work up done, Physio out and saddle checked. And then consider maybe changing instructors - you need an instructor who will work with you and the horse, not one who works against!
 
I can only agree with everything be positive has said. And I don't think this instructor - or any of the instructors there, if they are in agreement about his behaviour - are the right people to help with this horse.

IME, it's people who get far more wrapped up in 'dominance issues' than horses because the behaviour is misinterpreted. Just because what you or your instructor is doing isn't getting through, doesn't mean he's trying to be dominant - it means his fear is greater than any dominating force a rider has tried to apply. If this horse was genuinely taking the P he'd be trying it on in different situations and being opportunistic whenever he could, not just in one corner of the arena. He certainly wouldn't be the lamb you describe when you're out on a hack.

Right or wrong, logical or illogical (to you) he seems to have a genuine fear-based issue. Which means a force or fear-based response such as your instructor has proposed isn't going to give him the confidence or explanation he needs to solve the problem. Having someone ride the bejeezus out of him, basically telling him 'YAAAARGH! THERE'S NOTHING TO BE AFRAID OF YOU IDIOT!' wouldn't work on most horses and certainly doesn't sound like it's the key to your horse's brain.

(Think about it. If someone wanted you to jump through a wall of flame and it terrified you, would someone behind you poking you with a pointy stick and shouting 'IT'S NOT SCARY, YOU MORON! STOP BEING DOMINANT AND DO WHAT I SAY!' make you any less scared, or would it freak you out to the point you couldn't think straight?)

I don't think he's the wrong horse for you at all. I believe your faith that he can get past this is absolutely correct and done right you'll both be handsomely rewarded. But I think this particular problem is beyond the resources you have to hand. You need professional help from a skilled horse trainer, not a riding instructor.
 
You've been given lots of good advice on here, and in particular some reading about how horses learn and think might be really helpful in allowing you to get some emotional distance from what's happening and find a different way of thinking about it.

From my own experience of a first horse who was in truth far too much for me, but who I loved to bits and learned lots from, my advice to you would be that if you are going to turn this into a fight and make it about dominance, you WILL lose and it will end badly for you and possibly also the horse.

I don't think this trainer sounds right for the two of you at all, you need someone who can think of a better way of approaching this. He might be able to take the horse on some sort of boot camp and "sort it out", but that isn't necessarily going to help you get results when you ride it.

How about taking the horse to a week or weekend clinic with someone like Mary Wanless? That will give you one different approach and if it works a different network of professionals to help you. Or someone else, but research carefully first. Your current trainer's approach clearly isn't working, so you need to try something else and a clinic could be a good way of trying that out without burning your bridges.

The point about moving yards is also worth considering if you've always had the horse on the same yard. I have posted on here before about how big a change (in a good way) moving was for my quirky chap. I don't know whether it was the routine, the atmosphere, the soil chemistry, the turnout arrangements or what, but the second yard definitely suited him much better than the first.
 
I've not read all of the replies, so forgive me if I'm repeating advice.

The school here has an old car covered with a flappy tarp at one end (oh how I've tried to rope and gaffer tape it, yet it still flaps). Poor CM couldn't cope with it at all. However I turned her out in the school with my gelding when he was suffering from photosensitivity and needed to be in the shade (the school is very shady). They lived in it for about three weeks 24/7. She had no pressure to go near it at all if she didn't want to, but my gelding is more confident than her about stuff like that and she was definitely influenced by him in a positive way about it. She got over the fear of the car/tarp on about day two and was spotted snoozing near it.

I don't know if your YO would let you do this, so it might not be a feasible suggestion, but it did work for CM.
 
I agree with others who have said this has nothing to do with dominance...it's fear. And it's a proven fact that no animal (or human) can learn correctly when under stress. Your instructor sounds like a bit of a prat to be honest...Personally I wouldn't be letting someone like that near my horse. Ask around for recommendations for a trainer who works positively.
Get the vet to give him a good work up and go from there.
 
That's actually a good point ladysam as he isn't being bad anywhere else it's just there. You can feel him tense up in the arena but take him out of it and somewhere else and he relaxes instantly.

This is his second yard micropony actually. He seems to prefer it as there is actually grass now and he has friends in the field all of the time. The last place he ended up in a tiny paddock full of mud and no one to talk to and he was miserable. It is a shame that he hates the arena but if we get him over this he will be fantastic again. I think it's just going to take a really long time as he does not believe it's safe and usually he does trust me.

I really wish i could do that faracat and i have asked if i can have him in there to free lunge even but because the arena fence is quite small they don't want people doing that as it's easier for them to just jump out. I like to free lunge too and he loves it so it is a shame we can't anymore.

Aw satanslittlehelper I think people are being overly harsh on the instructor but I can see why when I haven't described it very well. He does want to help get the horse through this but I think because he is making no progress at all people don't really know what to do with him. He does usually get over things quicker than this and he hasn't had a bad experience like something jumping or flying out at him down there. I think he just thinks something will jump out from between the trailers or in the shadows. He definitely is fine physically apart from maybe hormone levels are too high but i am calling the vet about that today to see what they think.
 
Sounds like a bored and mixed up horse to me that is spending too much time in the arena and is basically nappy, extremely bright in its mind and able to work the rider.

Assuming it is sound, the tack and shoes fit I would be putting a good independent seated rider on and sending the horse cubbing, pleasure riding and then hunting. When it is enjoying life and looking through its bridle again I would sell it and find a more suitable type.
 
I didn't read it all cause I was too eager to post... Apologies if I'm repeating a post. I had the EXACT same personality issue. Not about the field but being ridden in general now what I did was put him out for two weeks then moved yard and went literally back to the beginning. My lad dumped a 4 star eventer, a national hunt jockey, a dealer and me haha so I no it wasnt my riding all of them said sell him....

Now we're back to long reining and will lie across him nxt wk to see how happy he is but it toke two weeks for him to be comfortable with me touching him all over and him not move in the field and be completely relaxed. People overlook this if this step I think but anyways I tried bootcamp and it didn't work. Id start again and build the tolerance once he does a lap of walk fine go out of it... So he enters good he leaves good and that's his association.
 
All instructors "want to help" but some are better at it than others. The ignorant ones are the ones who will resort to force when they run out of tools. I would not be surprised if your instructor's attitude had contributed to your horse's lack of confidence. Horses are sensitive creatures and pressure applied inappropriately can quickly escalate problems a more sympathetic person would solve without upsetting the horse. It does not even need to be obvious to the onlooker, a hard leg aid, a tense hand when the horse tenses and the horse gets tipped into flight mode and has learnt it works as he has now made his rider helpless. If nobody can think of a solution just do not make the horse go anywhere near where he gets scared, do this consistently for a few weeks so your horse starts relaxing and trusting you in the arena and no longer expects bad things to happen. When he has learnt he will not be exposed to anything scary, then and only then start to very gradually move him a foot nearer the point where he used to tense up, do not push to the point where he actually reacts strongly. It may be a step at a time but one day he will go all the way without tensing. Praise and reward lavishly for every small bit of progress. The process is called 'desensitisation", look it up. Good dog behaviourists are nowadays very clued up about desensitisation. It will build your horse's trust in you without putting either of you in any danger. It will be slow to start with but you will have built a lifetime of trust between you and the horse. Ditch the trainer by the way, his/her solution is dangerous. If you choose this way, you may well find yourself alone with your horse for a bit so be prepared for being mocked and told you are barking, until you succeed.
 
Let's think about what dominating means .
If it means a boot camp type situation were a trainer works intensively on the horses reaction to aids to train it to be more obedient therefore it goes were it told to in a mannerly way it may well work .
But if it means trying to bully the horse to comply without trying to understand why the horse behaves in such an antisocial fashion it's not going to work .
However the fact that the horse is mannerly and nice to ride away from the school is a worry .
A good thing to do in these situations is some tail watching you of course need a friend to watch .
Basically it's a case of tail up naughty tail down frightened from this you can gauge what the best approach is .
For this type of horse
I would try working in the school daily
Working in the school with another horse
Giving a lot of work (twice a day )and good long hack and schooling .
Basic food just enough to keep going .
And yes I would consider a full ' problems with performance ' type work up because I have lost count of the times horses who behave badly in the school turn out in time to have been reacting against the fact school work hurts them .
And finally you do get horses whose attitude to the school has been so spoiled by bad training in their past they just don't do schools .
Then the best option to find a horse who is OP says lovely elsewhere a job working for a person who dislikes schools as well problem solved .
 
Well don't keep setting yourself up for a fight. Take him to some new place for a week and and go back to long reining, essentially re breaking him, so you will find if there is a particular issue you need to work on.
There is no need to keep trying to do something he objects to if he has shown willing elsewhere.
Use the school for ground handling, gridwork, le trec, agility etc, do not keep setting yourself up for failure.
It takes a very experienced person to sort out these issues, and your instructor is not the right person to sort out this particular horse.
 
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Another who thinks that a "boot camp" or wearing him out, or dominance situation is not the best answer.

You said yourself that the trainer rode and did dominance, and had zero success.

If my horse was wonderful everywhere except near some trailers, then I would be delighted to have this as a start point, and work on building confidence. I do not think he is a "jerk." If he was worried about the moving trailers then was dominated, then that will make him more jumpy, not less.

Ground work is useless when not done with a good and enquiring heart.

I would say either do as AA says, get the horse out hunting and sell, or... use this horse as your ticket to learn more about patience, being humble, enquiring, etc etc.

After the three saddlers did not text back on a Sunday thread, I think the impatience is possibly an area that needs work. You need to go at the horse's pace, and no, I don't mean the months of no improvement. I mean in a micro way, such as taking the time to tune in, to where the horse is breathing, and wait for the breath to change before asking anything.

If you are busy in your life and have not yet developed the skills to slow down and tune in, then I don't think this will have a successful outcome.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Sounds like a bored and mixed up horse to me that is spending too much time in the arena and is basically nappy, extremely bright in its mind and able to work the rider.

Assuming it is sound, the tack and shoes fit I would be putting a good independent seated rider on and sending the horse cubbing, pleasure riding and then hunting. When it is enjoying life and looking through its bridle again I would sell it and find a more suitable type.
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This in spades
 
Red-1 said:
Another who thinks that a "boot camp" or wearing him out, or dominance situation is not the best answer.

You said yourself that the trainer rode and did dominance, and had zero success.

If my horse was wonderful everywhere except near some trailers, then I would be delighted to have this as a start point, and work on building confidence. I do not think he is a "jerk." If he was worried about the moving trailers then was dominated, then that will make him more jumpy, not less.

Ground work is useless when not done with a good and enquiring heart.

I would say either do as AA says, get the horse out hunting and sell, or... use this horse as your ticket to learn more about patience, being humble, enquiring, etc etc.

After the three saddlers did not text back on a Sunday thread, I think the impatience is possibly an area that needs work. You need to go at the horse's pace, and no, I don't mean the months of no improvement. I mean in a micro way, such as taking the time to tune in, to where the horse is breathing, and wait for the breath to change before asking anything.

If you are busy in your life and have not yet developed the skills to slow down and tune in, then I don't think this will have a successful outcome.
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Agree with this but it sounds like your trying so hard your getting frustrated. All you can do is take what he gives you take a breath ignore the begrudgers and work from there. He's not trying to hurt you or annoy you because otherwise he would do it in all situations he's trying to get you we have an issue here...
 
I have looked up this video on Youtube. The horse had a different than yours, but it is an example of taking the horse with a generous heart, and tuning in, with the mind of the horse to the fore.

It is worth the 18 minute watch just to see what it is to have a "horseman's mind" as opposed to a get it quick mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JViKZKgUixg
 
Red-1 said:
Another who thinks that a "boot camp" or wearing him out, or dominance situation is not the best answer.

You said yourself that the trainer rode and did dominance, and had zero success.

If my horse was wonderful everywhere except near some trailers, then I would be delighted to have this as a start point, and work on building confidence. I do not think he is a "jerk." If he was worried about the moving trailers then was dominated, then that will make him more jumpy, not less.

Ground work is useless when not done with a good and enquiring heart.

I would say either do as AA says, get the horse out hunting and sell, or... use this horse as your ticket to learn more about patience, being humble, enquiring, etc etc.

After the three saddlers did not text back on a Sunday thread, I think the impatience is possibly an area that needs work. You need to go at the horse's pace, and no, I don't mean the months of no improvement. I mean in a micro way, such as taking the time to tune in, to where the horse is breathing, and wait for the breath to change before asking anything.

If you are busy in your life and have not yet developed the skills to slow down and tune in, then I don't think this will have a successful outcome.
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Asha said:
This in spades
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Both of these. Look for another instructor. My instructor travels an hour to get to me. I'm sure there is someone good nearby but all the ones I know of are bullies and had them teach me whilst in PC and would never have them again. When it's your first horse you need to accept that whatever you thought you knew is now less than nothing as soon as you encounter a problem you can't fix. I've had horses for 25 years, and it's only now that I feel I'm getting to the real root of doing it properly, next year I'll probably feel the same.

New instructor, and a new attitude.
 
rachk89 said:
So I'm accepting the challenge and we're going to break the dominance.
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Alarm bells are ringing for me. I agree with Mongoose11 that trying to outdominate horses rarely works and is a very risky strategy. It all depends on what you actually do. A determination to change behaviour through patient persistence is one thing; a willingness to escalate into dangerous, uncontrollable situations is something else.
 
This sounds very like a horse we have [now retired]. Firstly no horse'takes the piss'- whatever does that means in horse psychology terms? We as humans may find their behaviour illogical ,but to them whatever they do is justified in their own minds.
Our horse was bought for me , as a show horse, but too too hot for me to ride. if he saw something new half a mile away he s spook/plunge/go.
My O H is a very tackful and experienced rider/instructor , so he took him over. No way was dominance ever going to work on this horse, he d have run/fought/plunged till he collapsed. Tact and endless endless patience was the answer, but even then it wasnt easy. I worked with said horse at liberty and on the ground , getting some measure of co operation- but I never rode him. Also helpful was our herd leader ,who kept all the boys in order in a very firm way. It was most intructive to watch him deal with a neurotic field mate!
O H got him to advance medium dressage , where most times he no longer spooked in the arena , or plunged around in the horsebox.
Sorry to sond defeatist, but some horses are so extreme [ usually they are too sensiitive, too intelligent and had some trauma early on] that the number of people safe to ride them are few and far between.
 
Agree he sounds bored in the arena. What happens if you just hack him out, or hunt, or do other things? You say he's fine to ride in the field so there's something else going on here.
 
honetpot said:
You have answered the question yourself. Boot camp would make him sour, he has a pony mind and different things keep him sweet because they interest him.
I taught my daughters from being small, no school. You have to use your brain to avoid confrontation so the child always wins.
When my daughter was 14 she had a 16hand cob which we broke herself, in a schooling session with a trainer he could not make the corner so ran out, the trainer got on thinking they knew better, that he was naughty when the corner was too tight for him. The horse ended up a mess, it still could not make the corner and shut down, and wouldn't do anything, the trainer just looked stupid, and I was very cross.
He is happy ridden in the field so there must be a trigger in the school, which is usually pain but can be boredom. I would only take him in the for 15mins, give him a simple task, like halting on x with just your seat or doing a few transitions with seat aids and voice. As soon as he gets it right, praise and pat and take him for a hack, preferably with a friend. You can practice leg yield , shoulder in on hacks.
I would try reading Mary Wanless, Ride with your mind. I think you would be better working on the positive and let him get something right than reinforcing the negative.
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This^^

OP you and your trainer are barking up the wrong tree wanting to 'break the dominance' of this horse. You will end up breaking the whole horse, or yourself. The horse has a reason to dislike being ridden in that corner. Often this is pain. Pain which the horse can ignore most of the time, but add in a bit of fear and it all becomes too much for him. I have seen this happen many times.

If it definitely isn't pain, then you still need to change your attitude towards the horse. He still has a reason for disliking the corner, whether it is a valid or sensible one or not. IF he definitely doesn't have any physical problems, I would forget about the corner for a while and concentrate on building positive experiences and trust with him. Then reintroduce the corner very gradually but riding ever so slightly closer to it and only for a short time. Don't get into fights with him.
 
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Wagtail said:
This^^

OP you and your trainer are barking up the wrong tree wanting to 'break the dominance' of this horse. You will end up breaking the whole horse, or yourself. The horse has a reason to dislike being ridden in that corner. Often this is pain. Pain which the horse can ignore most of the time, but add in a bit oof fear and it all becomes too much for him.
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This really it .
It's why horses do so many things we see as silly .
Horse stops at filler , naughty horse or horse thinks scary looking big thing needs a big jump I can't do that without it hurting .
 
I'm so sorry you have having problems with your horse and there's been a lot of very helpful advice already from people who are much more experienced than I am. However, I'm another who doesn't believe in dominating or forcing is the way to go. TBH if you can lead your horse round the whole of the arena without an issue, he's probably not frightened of the trailer end but using it to tell you something. He might find the work you are doing difficult, he might be bored, he might just want to be in his stable feeding his face (he might be in pain) but if you get him to accept that end of the arena by force, I suspect he'll find another way of telling there's a problem and you won't have built the relationship into something more positive than it is now. It will probably be worse. I have a fantastic and very experienced trainer who's philosophy is to make it easy for the horse to succeed and if the horse is struggling, to try to work out why. Good luck, I hope you find a solution that works for both you and your horse and if you don't then there's no shame in finding him another home.
 
This horse has made it clear he is unhappy in the arena. I would listen to him and school on a hack throughout the winter. Rebuild the relationship. Stay away from the arena.
 
be positive said:
He is a horse not an idiot, your complete lack of understanding about how the equine mind works means you will struggle to overcome this successfully, you may "win" the battle but are unlikely to win the war, it has nothing to do with him being dominant and everything to do with him lacking confidence in himself, his surroundings, you and your instructor.
Work where he is good, and get him going really well, do things to interest him, polework can focus the mind, then gradually creep little by little into the scary zone but always take him back to his comfort zone as a reward, positive reinforcement, confidence building and gaining his trust will work but will require patience and a skillful, sensitive rider.
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Well said !! The more I read of this thread the more I despair of some of the comments. Horses do not have an agenda, or go out of their way to be difficult. He sounds like a very insecure horse, either because of age, or bad experiences. The fact that when you LEAD him down that end, he's happy, should tell you everything. He needs you to be in front and tell him it's alright. Do take the time to read Mark Rashid's books about how to think outside the box and get the best from the horse. Some horses feel safer in a closed space, some don't. He is obviously one of the latter. MR is a great one for asking a little bit of pressure, then taking the horse right away from the source to make it realise things aren't too bad. Then go back and repeat again, asking for more time facing the problem. Just try to get inside his head a bit more, I'm sure you'll get there, as you appear to have a good bond already.
 
There are times when I love this forum and this is one of them!

Nothing much to add as it has all been said. I'm afraid, OP, that you need to stop and re-think your ideas about how an animal's mind works. Horses are simple creatures and work mostly on auto pilot as that saves them having to think. If they can hand over the chore of having to think, they will do so, which makes them relatively easy to handle once trained. Unfortunately, that means that they also have absolutes. Walking into a trailer is (to the horse that won't load) a dangerous thing to do, so they won't do it. Same thing about going to a part of the arena they fear. It is the trainer's task to teach them that it is not dangerous and using a bigger stick (or dominance) isn't going to do it.

You need to change your mindset.
 
Red-1 said:
I have looked up this video on Youtube. The horse had a different than yours, but it is an example of taking the horse with a generous heart, and tuning in, with the mind of the horse to the fore.

It is worth the 18 minute watch just to see what it is to have a "horseman's mind" as opposed to a get it quick mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JViKZKgUixg
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I haven't watched all of this video yet, but even by six minutes the horse looks totally different and SO engaged - it's amazing what patience and asking for things that the horse can achieve does.
 
So many good posts above, have to agree with everything bepositive has said but this really resonated for me.

Red-1 said:
Ground work is useless when not done with a good and enquiring heart.

I would say either do as AA says, get the horse out hunting and sell, or... use this horse as your ticket to learn more about patience, being humble, enquiring, etc etc.

After the three saddlers did not text back on a Sunday thread, I think the impatience is possibly an area that needs work. You need to go at the horse's pace, and no, I don't mean the months of no improvement. I mean in a micro way, such as taking the time to tune in, to where the horse is breathing, and wait for the breath to change before asking anything.

If you are busy in your life and have not yet developed the skills to slow down and tune in, then I don't think this will have a successful outcome.
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My funny section D has taught me so much more about having deep reserves of patience than any horse before her.
She appeared stubborn and difficult, escalated like the OPs horse if you tried to face her head on with anything. Napped in the school. Couldn't get her off the yard. I nearly had her shot.

If I had a trainer like the OPs, I would have given up long ago, either that or been hospitalised. The key to success with mine has been to expect no progress each day - have literally no expectations beyond knowing I will personally keep my cool and be zen-like, and quiet, ever so quiet persistance in asking the horse to do something achievable.

Tiny TINY steps forward. I think you have to put a very loose plan in place to address this, realistically, over months rather than expecting to crack it in a session if you can just dominate the horse enough.
That way you build trust in any situation, plus you learn a whole set of new tools and mental strength (to not react or lose your calm) that you never knew you had.

I have met very few horses that did things like this deliberately so you have to learn not to take things personally. Find a way of meeting him in the middle.

There was a good post upthread about desensitisation- I think it's more than that, you need the horse to find the mental space to deal with a scary thing and learn how to cope. Tritan Tucker has a good demo about this which may be worth a look if you want to adopt a technique to guide you through - but as above nothing will work until you can spend the time to read your horse :) http://www.trtmethod.com/
 
rachk89 said:
Yeah that is one thing I havent tried, long reining him. I might try that tomorrow night with him in the arena if there is no one else in it and see how he does. Probably the same, but could at least attempt to build on it. Cheers.
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I am surprised that you say he is fine on the ground yet haven't long reined him round the arena, I'd be trying to do all his schooling on long reins for a while, though if you aren't very experienced at it I would probably find someone who was first.
You need to get into his head, not just dominate though, like AA I'd also send him cubbing.
 
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