Challenge accepted, horse..

arrogant, dramatic, dominating git
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I've never seen a horse that is like this. I think what you're seeing is a scared, bullied horse who is trying desperately to tell anybody that will listen that the end of the school is dangerous and no amount of scaring and bullying him further will get him to go past otherwise he will surely die. Is it really so important to labour this point of one end of the school? Those who work their horses in an arena rarely do endless circuits of the school.

Try sticking a person at the scary end, preferably not your instructor but someone who can just stand there non-threateningly, to see if that will give him a bit of confidence to move further towards those trailers.
 
It sounds a bit like the actions that have been put in place to try to solve this unfortunately have made the situation for the horse worse and just confirmed to him what he thought in the first place. He thought that that area in the school was a bit scary (I bet it is the end away from the gate ?) He probably does not much like going in the school cos he associates it with work and having pressure put on him. So, what happened, he was a bit scared of one end (was probably mentally thinking he would rather be out of the school, so his mind was still at the gate) .. so pressure was put on him to go to the scary end/corner .. so confirming that that is not a nice place to be. If you work him in the 'nice' area nearer the gate, pressure him in the area where he does not want to be and then 'reward' him with a rest near the gate... this just confirms what he thought in the first place. I would be more inclined to work him where he is comfortable (so generally this would be on the circle either by the gate, or the side of the school in the direction of field/stables/friends). when you want to give him a rest , walk in the direction of the 'scary end/corner) and before you feel any great tension, let him stop and have a rest. if he starts showing signs of wanting to get away again, go back to where he is comfortable, but then go back to work. The go back to work, should not be aggressive, or punishment, just calmly working on what you want to work on. Progressively you will find that he will start to suss out that nearer the scary place, is actually much nicer than where he thought would be nice.
Seems strange, but when you really think about how the horses is perceiving the situation , makes much more sense.
This takes some patience and goes against most of the 'the horse must do what I want to do , I need to MAKE him comply' but in the long term may help you.
 
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Additionally, think carefully about where you finish your session and where you get off .. if you can happily work on a 20m circle at the other end of the arena and the first session you only get him to walk 5 metres towards the scary end , but off your 20m circle, then stop , rest and eventually get off there. Horses notice these things much much more than we realize.
 
Out of interest, if he's ok to be led to the bogey end have you tried leading him down there and then getting on him? Even if you just ride along the short side and then let him walk away? Maybe some repetition of this and slowly building it up could help?
 
milliepops said:
There was a good post upthread about desensitisation- I think it's more than that, you need the horse to find the mental space to deal with a scary thing and learn how to cope. Tritan Tucker has a good demo about this which may be worth a look if you want to adopt a technique to guide you through - but as above nothing will work until you can spend the time to read your horse :) http://www.trtmethod.com/
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I'm so glad you mentioned this. As soon as I read the post about desensitisation my mind immediately went to Tristan Tucker and his thoughts on it.

In short - desensitising to one thing is good but only goes so far; teaching how to cope with scary things is better. The example he gives is a horse who might be frightened by, e.g. the white judges' podium at a dressage test. You teach it not to be afraid of the weird white thing but at the next test the judge is sitting in a red car and you're back to square one. Better to give the horse the confidence and mental tools to deal with scary things in a more general sense.

This is part of how you make bombproof horses. They can do this; they haven't been desensitised to the myriad, unique scary experiences they might come across. Horses are capable of complex thought processes, they're just not necessarily similar to human thought processes. Building his trust in you is the start.
 
annagain said:
Out of interest, if he's ok to be led to the bogey end have you tried leading him down there and then getting on him? Even if you just ride along the short side and then let him walk away? Maybe some repetition of this and slowly building it up could help?
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This is a good idea, always mount him from that end perhaps? Walk him around the trailers so he can see that there are no monsters lurking in there. Can you lunge him at that end? Or maybe just turn him out in there for half an hour to see what he does, let him investigate it and get used to being there. Ride him down there and lean down to give him a treat, food normally works well.

I understand though, I wouldn't sell either. I hate letting myself give up on something so I'd be the same as you! I think he can change, they're such goofy creatures, bless them. Good luck :) let us know how you get on.
 
could it be his eyesight? even if not perhaps there are shadows from the trailers that are causing him problems and he gets the confidence to go down that end when led but feels your tension/apprehension when you are on board

Something that has helped me when I feel tense is to sing out loud, this seems to mask a lot of the vibes that horses pick up - sounds silly but it can work really well. you might not feel you are tense but when he refuses to go you probably unconsciously get more defensive or tense
 
If he is really good everywhere else and only scared in the school i'd feed him in the school. Start off where you know he's comfortable and move a metre or so each day until you are next to the trailers. It doesn't need to be a big feed but he does need to be hungry.;)
 
havent read all the posts too many !! but if i moved my trailer from one side of the school to the other my gelding who i have had since 5 months old , now 9 ,would definately be spooky about a change in enviroment. Personally I would never go up against a horse, usually only one ending, you have to think of ways around these things which generally mean a fair bit of time involved ime. i would just work the horse in the arena and not go down the scarey end, after sometime has passed I would start to go a couple of metres further down & gradually increase by the time you have spent a couple of months doing that he proabably will have forgotten all about it
 
irishdraft said:
havent read all the posts too many !! but if i moved my trailer from one side of the school to the other my gelding who i have had since 5 months old , now 9 ,would definately be spooky about a change in enviroment. Personally I would never go up against a horse, usually only one ending, you have to think of ways around these things which generally mean a fair bit of time involved ime. i would just work the horse in the arena and not go down the scarey end, after sometime has passed I would start to go a couple of metres further down & gradually increase by the time you have spent a couple of months doing that he proabably will have forgotten all about it
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How do you cope at shows then? With all the scary stuff?
 
I agree with the others that say he seems bored, I have 2 Arabs they can be very spooky our school has a track along the side of it cars people and horses use it, people leave chairs in various places there are trees around the edge that blow in the wind, all of these things can cause mine to spook and often they get a fixation on a certain area, the only way I deal with it is make the schooling harder so they don't have time to think about the distractions, if they are concerned about one end I stay away from it for a while and go where they are happy then go back know to it when they are going better, circles and shoulder in is not hard enough if you have a clever horse that needs stimulation, the more busy and harder I make it the easier my horses are and the less spooky they are, I would change instructor get someone who is going to help you.

Do you hack out? and how often is he schooled.
 
Just to add another suggestion to the pot. I have a horse who had a very sad past history (in the years prior to my buying him when he was 7). He had major issues with being ridden in an arena, was inwardly very tense and always 'chomping' and spooking and curling tightly behind the bit. Yet outside the arena you could walk buckle end completely relaxed. As soon as you entered a school, the tension began.

So I decided that I needed to change he his associations with the school. I started by going for a walking hack and then on the way back, popping into the school for one walk around in a loose rein (almost as if it were part of the hack), then back out.

I also took him in there in-hand and had some fun time/bonding time/ back rubs/ wandering about in-hand chatting to him, then leaving.

I have built this up and completely taken the pressure off him where the school is concerned, and, although still more tense in the school than out, I can see a much more positive reaction from him now about going in there- Infact, I think I could go as far as saying that he's starting to really enjoy our time in there. I keep it short, fun and stress-free. He is made to think, but not overthink. I give him questions that have answers within his capabilities, if he gets something easily, I ask a bit more. But they key to what I have done is change his negative perception that the school is where he is expected to 'go in a certain way and get told off if he doesn't' (nothing that I have ever done, I must add! But his reaction at getting muddled in the past suggests he has been reprimanded)
 
rachk89 said:
Problem is all of the instructors around here agree on his behaviour. I think I'm not describing it right, but they're all in agreement that he is taking the P ...
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My first thought would be that they must all be wrong then, but it really depends on what they mean by "taking the P". I'd like to know what they believe is actually going on in your horse's mind when he's "taking the P".
 
I think what fburton is getting at (correct me if I'm wrong!) is that horses really lack the ability to be that calculating. We say they take the P or they are naughty or whatever, because it's human nature to anthropomorphise. But we have to be careful when we do that, because it can encourage riders to punish or otherwise act unfairly to an animal which has really put no deliberate thought into its actions.. it's not personal. The horse is more likely either reacting to something threatening- real or perceived, or is carrying out a learnt behaviour, rather than standing there 'thinking' about how he can deliberately wind up the OP and her instructors.
 
I agree milliepops, horses cannot take the p in the way we can and do but Cluelessblone does have a valid point, I often help people with their horses and so often when they are struggling with something, that they and the horse should be able to do but failing to achieve what they want, I can get on and 9 times out of 10 can get there easily, it has nothing to do with me being a bully or beating the horse but purely down to experience of knowing what to do and being able to do it at the right time, I am not the bravest, strongest or most talented rider but the horse know when someone gets on and knows how to deal with their antics and usually packs it in straight away.

I am talking about minor issues such as not listening to the aids, napping at the gate, not going on the correct lead, bend or just being tricky, I am not going to get on something that stands bolt upright or really means business as there is usually an underlying reason for very dramatic behaviour and that requires a vet and often a long rehab to sort out, the slightly tricky ones that are taking the p, for want of a better description, are usually fine once the pro gets on provided the pro goes about it the right way and doesn't think they will get there by meeting the horse head on, in this case I think that is the key the pro has limited tools available to them and can only try brute force, now it has failed they have no other viable options to use which is why a new instructor with a different approach has been suggested, so far the get on and get after him has not worked so the softly softly one is probably the best way forward, thinking like a horse can give us a whole new perspective on why they behave as they do.
 
Brilliant stuff from be positive, that's what I'd be exploring.

Noticed OP hasn't been back on for a while. It can be tough getting replies that are perhaps not what you're expecting or conflict with what you thought was the best route, but I hope you can take them in the spirit they are intended, and see that the vast majority are saying similar stuff, which would certainly make me reconsider.

I've had some surprising responses in the past to some of my threads, and on reflection I've realised I was on the wrong track. I really hope some of this helps you as you clearly love your horse and want to make it work.
 
be positive said:
in this case I think that is the key the pro has limited tools available to them and can only try brute force, now it has failed they have no other viable options to use which is why a new instructor with a different approach has been suggested, so far the get on and get after him has not worked so the softly softly one is probably the best way forward, thinking like a horse can give us a whole new perspective on why they behave as they do.
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yep agree. as previously mentioned I had to do this with my tricky one, because I didn't have the time to out-think her. I got someone with her own brand of NH (for want of a better word) and she sometimes spent several hours negotiating 100m of hacking, just figuring out a way to bottom out my horse's issues. I would have been fired if I'd spent that same amount of time, I had 2 others in work daily and 8 hours of employment to fit in, on a winter day!!

I would still caution against the phrase taking the P. I know you are an experienced horseperson bp who can see the difference. But the minor things you describe are (to me) more about being utterly clear about expectations with the horse, being clear in instruction, and then following up so the horse understand that the direction you've just given is actually more important than his own desire to have a snooze, or find some grass, or just do it 'mañana' :p
 
Bernster said:
Noticed OP hasn't been back on for a while. It can be tough getting replies that are perhaps not what you're expecting or conflict with what you thought was the best route, but I hope you can take them in the spirit they are intended, and see that the vast majority are saying similar stuff, which would certainly make me reconsider.

I've had some surprising responses in the past to some of my threads, and on reflection I've realised I was on the wrong track. I really hope some of this helps you as you clearly love your horse and want to make it work.
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^^ yep, this, in spades. :)
 
milliepops said:
yep agree. as previously mentioned I had to do this with my tricky one, because I didn't have the time to out-think her. I got someone with her own brand of NH (for want of a better word) and she sometimes spent several hours negotiating 100m of hacking, just figuring out a way to bottom out my horse's issues. I would have been fired if I'd spent that same amount of time, I had 2 others in work daily and 8 hours of employment to fit in, on a winter day!!

I would still caution against the phrase taking the P. I know you are an experienced horseperson bp who can see the difference. But the minor things you describe are (to me) more about being utterly clear about expectations with the horse, being clear in instruction, and then following up so the horse understand that the direction you've just given is actually more important than his own desire to have a snooze, or find some grass, or just do it 'mañana' :p
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We need a phrase to fit, to us it is clearly the horse not understanding the question but to someone that is less experienced they do not understand that the question is unclear or why the horse does not do as it is asked, it becomes a vicious circle of ask, say no, ask again, no, confused horse, confused rider, so the explanation is horse is taking the p, when in reality it never knew what the question was in the first place or by the time it started to understand the rider has changed what they want.

I might start a thread later mulling it over.
 
milliepops said:
I think what fburton is getting at (correct me if I'm wrong!) is that horses really lack the ability to be that calculating. We say they take the P or they are naughty or whatever, because it's human nature to anthropomorphise. But we have to be careful when we do that, because it can encourage riders to punish or otherwise act unfairly to an animal which has really put no deliberate thought into its actions.. it's not personal. The horse is more likely either reacting to something threatening- real or perceived, or is carrying out a learnt behaviour, rather than standing there 'thinking' about how he can deliberately wind up the OP and her instructors.
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That is exactly what I was getting at, milliepops. You have expressed it very well.
 
The more I learn with horses, the more I understand that ego is the one thing which should never accompany you into the arena. The more controlled you are in yourself, the more clearly you can see why your horse responds as it does, and the more clearly you can see how to move forward. Once you remove the ego, the notion of a horse "taking the piss" becomes absurd - they may not react how you want them to, but that's not because of "you" - it's because of what you're doing (wrong), or what you've failed to do for them.
 
Bernster said:
Brilliant stuff from be positive, that's what I'd be exploring.

Noticed OP hasn't been back on for a while. It can be tough getting replies that are perhaps not what you're expecting or conflict with what you thought was the best route, but I hope you can take them in the spirit they are intended, and see that the vast majority are saying similar stuff, which would certainly make me reconsider.

I've had some surprising responses in the past to some of my threads, and on reflection I've realised I was on the wrong track. I really hope some of this helps you as you clearly love your horse and want to make it work.
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Totally agree with this - and you've phrased it beautifully too, Bernster.
I genuinely think you'll get there rach - a bit of understanding and gentle perseverance and you'll get there.
 
be positive said:
I agree milliepops, horses cannot take the p in the way we can and do but Cluelessblone does have a valid point, I often help people with their horses and so often when they are struggling with something, that they and the horse should be able to do but failing to achieve what they want, I can get on and 9 times out of 10 can get there easily, it has nothing to do with me being a bully or beating the horse but purely down to experience of knowing what to do and being able to do it at the right time, I am not the bravest, strongest or most talented rider but the horse know when someone gets on and knows how to deal with their antics and usually packs it in straight away.

I am talking about minor issues such as not listening to the aids, napping at the gate, not going on the correct lead, bend or just being tricky, I am not going to get on something that stands bolt upright or really means business as there is usually an underlying reason for very dramatic behaviour and that requires a vet and often a long rehab to sort out, the slightly tricky ones that are taking the p, for want of a better description, are usually fine once the pro gets on provided the pro goes about it the right way and doesn't think they will get there by meeting the horse head on, in this case I think that is the key the pro has limited tools available to them and can only try brute force, now it has failed they have no other viable options to use which is why a new instructor with a different approach has been suggested, so far the get on and get after him has not worked so the softly softly one is probably the best way forward, thinking like a horse can give us a whole new perspective on why they behave as they do.
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This!! I dont ride mine and on the whole he is a superstar, but he starting being naughty for my sharer. To all intents and purposes taking the pee. I had a melt down decided he was broken and there was a serious issue. I put a good experienced rider up and there was no issue at all. Brute force wouldn't have worked, she'd already tried giving him a smacked bottom and he just ignored her. The experienced rider rode him a few times and then my sharer got on and got some help to ride him properly. Theres been no problem since, in fact hes never gone better and they are both having a whale of a time :)
 
Sorry guys not been back on here in ages because of work (3 new potential client visits in a week + 3 presentations + finding out one of my clients have been idiots for 17 years = a very stressed and migraine prone person) haha.

Thanks for all of your advice and I am gonna try a lot of it. I wish I could take him hunting but apart from mock hunts once in a blue moon no one does them up here as far as I know (please tell me if I am wrong). I am in the north of scotland and i think there might be one over by Aberdeen but not overly sure.

I am gonna be trying some of the things you guys have mentioned as well as continuing what I was doing which was constant movement basically never doing a straight line ever until we eventually get to the bottom and he is good, praise and repeat. He does actually get calmer with this which is better than the flighty version so it seems to work.

Can't reply to everyone there have been a lot of posts but thanks still. Gonna just keep trying with him he can be good. Unfortunately next 2 weeks are hell again with more client visits, late shifts, trips to England etc. I do have someone who is gonna ride him for me on the days I can't and he has no trouble with him so just gonna get him to do it instead of the instructor. Just trying to keep the consistency even if it won't be me. Although I dunno if that is even right as the horse does seem to prefer it being just me who rides him although he is nice to this person too. I just won't have time for the whole week and if he isn't ridden he may just get worse.
 
hairycob said:
I know someone who thought the way to deal with difficulties was to bully & dominate a horse. He did recover from his serious injuries.
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I did too, I watched all 6'5 of him get catapulted about 10/15ft into the air; over the fence, landing face first in front of shocked onlookers, closely followed by horse who I am sure wanted his blood!
Thankfully no serious injuries, if that horse had got hold of him I'm sure there would have been
 
So today we went for a long hack walk only as he had never been there before so I didn't want to overwhelm him as he was very excitable. Had a few spooky moments but not bad. He had to have his hand held past spooky things by other horses but he was fine then.

Got back took him into the arena and he was good as gold. Went round the whole arena even to the scary corner in walk trot and canter. No issues at all and even did a little jump. He was very sweaty by the end but happy. I am happy too so much for my dangerous horse. :P
 
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