Championship Proliferation

[scats]

It’s all just a bit of fun really though isn’t it? At the end of the day, we trot horses around a sandpit, regardless of what level we’re at.
I think it’s quite nice that people have something to aim for and feel proud of.

 

[ycbm]

I'm not in this discussion at all ? I can't get into my head why somebody wants to get BE 90 perfect so they can go to Badminton when they could be jumping a 100 or a Novice instead. Competing was never about winning for me and when I tried to make it about winning it ruined all my fun.

Horses for courses, for me. If people want the competitions and there are entries to make the whole thing pay, good on them.
.

 

[Roxylola]

@ycbm BE is very costly to go for a run when you know you're not competitive. At £20 a go I'm happy scoring 60s up the levels at BD.
Charlie won't make time round a 100 course so there I'd rather aim for low level champs than push up levels. If a top 10 place was a realistic goal (eventually) I'd be happy to chip away at that

 

[Bernster]

I did the numpties class but it was ridden novice not in hand. Also did the ridden hunter. A lovely weekend. Am envious of your sash

 

[ycbm]

@ycbm BE is very costly to go for a run when you know you're not competitive. At £20 a go I'm happy scoring 60s up the levels at BD.
Charlie won't make time round a 100 course so there I'd rather aim for low level champs than push up levels. If a top 10 place was a realistic goal (eventually) I'd be happy to chip away at that

No, sorry, doesn’t compute ?

I paid £100 a time to jump cross country courses that I couldn't do any other way, not in any hope of a frilly. Time never bothered me except for the thrill of riding and jumping fast. I paid £20 to do dressage for a nice day out watching horses and a good cafe.

When I tried to compete to win it ruined the entire experience.
.

 

[Bernster]

I’m trying to think whether I do competitions to win or not. I don’t think I do. I think my aim is to do the best we can, and I don’t like to enter unless I feel like we can do a decent job of it generally, but whether we win, place or not isn’t the aim. It’s lovely to get a frilly ofc and that adds a nice bonus, but getting a decent score, or doing a nice round, is also an achievement for me. That said, if we meet my aim of doing a decent job of it, we often do get placed (low level unaff so I’m under no illusions !).

 

[milliepops]

I do competitions to qualify
I like winning, don't get me wrong ? but since BD binned O/R it's been possible to qualify for a lot of things without having to win a class. Championship shows are fun and the frillies are nicer, i also like collecting plaques
So I guess that's why I like a championship that has some meaningful qualification criteria because otherwise it's just a nice big show. i personally want to feel like I did something that stretched me if I get there and especially if i win a champs.

 

[Roxylola]

I am by no means chasing frillies, but these days it's closer to 200 than 100 for a BE round. I very much go for the day out but its nice to think that with luck and a fair wind we might have a chance of something. To go out at 100 I'd pretty much write even the possibility of that off, his dressage is plenty good enough it would purely be speed that let's him down. And then if we're literally going for a hack round I like having goals so if I'm hacking round 100 we've no scope for novice its just a bit too far so then it feels a bit pointless for me.
I'll either chase progress or being competitive bit if I can't do either I'll lose impetus quickly

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I do competitions to qualify
I like winning, don't get me wrong ? but since BD binned O/R it's been possible to qualify for a lot of things without having to win a class. Championship shows are fun and the frillies are nicer, i also like collecting plaques
So I guess that's why I like a championship that has some meaningful qualification criteria because otherwise it's just a nice big show. i personally want to feel like I did something that stretched me if I get there and especially if i win a champs.

I agree but also what is 'meaningful' is hugely variable. And an attitude I have found in lots of sports is that basically many people regard 'meaningful' as more or less 'my level or above'! I was genuinely thrilled with my first win at cross poles. As an adult. Here is the pic to prove how happy that made me!

Now, of course, my goals are different and there are shows I go to that to me are just training shows and I would not take up a qualifying slot even if I got one. But to others, those shows might be their season's A goal. I just can't see why anyone has a problem with a local league structuring their competitions to give all people at all levels a chance of qualifying and winning some silverware or nice sash or frilly. I do want the classes to be competitive at each level though - so people are not qualifying for coming top 2 in a class of 3. And I would never ride at levels way lower than what we are realistically capable of just to qualify or win. But if the level is personally challenging, and there are enough pepole wantting to compete with each other why should anyone look down on that or begrudge it.

 

[humblepie]

Like Ambers Echo, I welcome all and think it is lovely that there are so many things to aim at. You pick what you want to do and go for it and provided you are not out there pot hunting, why not. BD is a bit weird that you quite often be the only one in your section so a win doesn't mean much in itself but is points towards what ever championship you may be aiming at. And a red rosette does always look nice.

 

[Pippity]

I'm just grumpy that BD have a Hairy Cob championship but not a Proper Cob championship! ?

Edit: Ooh, apparently I can register her as a part-bred Hairy Cob!

 

[Alibear]

Trophies, loads of em. That was the gift of the 80s/90s. Got some cute medals from local shows as well. Best ever was winning £10 in 1985. Polos were 10p in those days.

I have sashes but no trophies. Wanna swap?

 

[palo1]

The problem is, isn't it, that if you have a testing and meaningful championship in a disclipline then you enter 'elitist' territory; that is politically hard because it contradicts any kind of social justice agenda in sport (which there is) and massively limits revenue. If you have many, many championships (including horse with the nicest face etc lol) then competitors who really want testing and meaningful (whatever their background or aspirations) feel a bit cheated. It is very difficult to make it work for everyone. It is I think too, partly a result of the general educational trend toward 'non competitive' education where in fact, secretly or not so secretly richer, more educated kids can streak ahead without having to 'compete' or develop their resilience to failure and disappointment as such. Poorer, less advantaged children still get to experience failure and disappointment however cos they still get a dud deal more generally! That sounds a bit muddled I know but if we use championships as a reward in a largely inequal, iniquitously competitive culture then anyone who is aspirational, regardless of skill will go for those as a form of validation. There will be those who work incredibly hard and want to join in at the more testing levels obviously and there will be the slightly 'silly' culture of very low level championships where competitors don't have to buy into the rather relentless hard work that riding or competing at an elite level demands.

If you are in an inner city, have no money, connections or access and want to get into horses I reckon a championship for a walk trot test or 60/70cm ODE is genuinely meaningful and realistic but how on earth do you limit entries or identify qualifications (without prejudice) into championships so they really mean something to everyone? Championship is a very loaded term too though I have no idea what else you can call a competition if you want it to be 'special' without it being a bit daft.

Personally I sometimes feel a bit sad that friends of mine are having a lovely time entering leagues and series of this and that, leading to the inevitable championship at a really rather, to me, disappointing level (ie fairly basic riding skills) and they are not really aspiring to more because at this low, easy level they still get to go home with a frilly/sash/whatever. I think it speaks somewhat of our declining respect generally for riding and horsemanship tbh but I don't want to be grumpy and uncharitable and moan about it either!!

 

[abbijay]

I don't care that this was a walk-trot test that was only up against pure bred heavy horses and Irish Draughts. It was beyond what I ever thought I could achieve. If I never get another sash in my life I got this one and will continue to dine out on the experience for the rest of my life. It was very much the opposite of my usual approach to competing which was have a go and push myself - we were competing unaff Elementary and training medium at the time but I decided my first foray into affiliated should start at the bottom as I was eligible and work my way up from there.
Having a posh day out is a very special moment for some of us riding school numpties with their first pony, we're not detracting from anyone else who is infinitely more talented and aiming for "proper" championships or choosing to do none at all.

 

[honetpot]

I'm not in this discussion at all ? I can't get into my head why somebody wants to get BE 90 perfect so they can go to Badminton when they could be jumping a 100 or a Novice instead. Competing was never about winning for me and when I tried to make it about winning it ruined all my fun.

Horses for courses, for me. If people want the competitions and there are entries to make the whole thing pay, good on them.
.

I think this is my point of view, it's about having progression, and as long as you know there is improvement, and that may be just getting there, unloading and having a nice day, the ribbons are just nice to look at and gather dust.
But most of us need our own carrot, that sometimes after six months of mud, hay nets and work, it's nice to go to an event, where at that level of competition at you may get a chance to shine.
Organisers need a certain level of entries to not make a loss, often a Championship attracts extra entries, for very little extra work. You get someone who wants to qualify, and perhaps enter another couple of classes, or at the Championship they turn up and bring something else.
When the children rode we could spend a whole week at a Championship, one pony may have qualified, we would take another pony and perhaps enter a class every day, especially WHP, because the quality of the courses are so good. Lots of Championships we qualified for we never went to, because the journey, and the lack of the chance to enter other things made it not worth it.
There are very few low level shows now, so all those people who used to enter them have to go somewhere, if the entry fee is being almost £20 or more, if they can give someone a chance £2 rosette, usually sponsored, it gives them an incentive to enter,

 

[Burnttoast]

No, sorry, doesn’t compute ?

I paid £100 a time to jump cross country courses that I couldn't do any other way, not in any hope of a frilly. Time never bothered me except for the thrill of riding and jumping fast. I paid £20 to do dressage for a nice day out watching horses and a good cafe.

When I tried to compete to win it ruined the entire experience.
.

I don't even ride anymore, let alone aim at sashes etc but when I had a share whose owner was into SJ with her main horse I did enjoy going round the local RC's baby class because it was a nice surface and proper jumps and more than three of them in a sequence! The fact that we turned up to every month's show and therefore won the RC championship for over 14.2hh at 60cm that year is neither here nor there ? I must admit I was quite pleased with my frilly.

 

[Leandy]

Completely agree with you. I don't see the attraction in winning a class of the also rans. I'd rather be a way down the list of all comers, then I can assess better how my skills actually do rank, and vow to work hard and do better next time. It is quietly satisfying to beat professionals at their own game sometimes. I live for those moments.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Completely agree with you. I don't see the attraction in winning a class of the also rans. I'd rather be a way down the list of all comers, then I can assess better how my skills actually do rank, and vow to work hard and do better next time. It is quietly satisfying to beat professionals at their own game sometimes. I live for those moments.

But the whole point is that these classes are not for people who regard the level of competition as entirely beneath them but for those ‘also rans’ who are riding at a level that is genuinely challenging for them. It’s just about making riding aspirational at all levels and giving everyone something to aim at.

 

[Bernster]

But the whole point is that these classes are not for people who regard the level of competition as entirely beneath them but for those ‘also rans’ who are riding at a level that is genuinely challenging for them. It’s just about making riding aspirational at all levels and giving everyone something to aim at.

That’s what I was going to put. I’m an also ran, so these would be the right level for me!

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I’m a fellow also ran! I have been super excited by every new level. I vividly remember my first x poles clear round, my first 50cm clear round, my first 60cm and 70cm ODEs. They meant every bit as much to me as my first BE80 and BE90. The 50cm class was after overcoming a phobic fear of jumping from a rotational fall XC. I am as proud of that as anything else I’ve done. I just don’t understand why people think others only deserve championships and challenges when they get to levels that - realistically- many people will never even reach.

 

[Leandy]

But the whole point is that these classes are not for people who regard the level of competition as entirely beneath them but for those ‘also rans’ who are riding at a level that is genuinely challenging for them. It’s just about making riding aspirational at all levels and giving everyone something to aim at.

I'm going to beg to differ, that is not how I feel. I want the opportunity to compete alongside the best. I don't see it is a proper competition if the best are excluded from it, even if it is still challenging for me. I'm just putting forward the other view, that there is too much proliferation and I don't see the benefit in dumbing down certain competitions. I don't mean that there should be no lower level competitions, of course there should but that is what unaff is for. There is also the point that with the proliferation, the competition structure becomes very complicated and harder to understand. This can be off-putting for the very aspiring competitors it is meant to encourage. They look at the array of things they could possibly consider trying to qualify for and just don't know what may be suitable for them or how to start. We see posts to this effect regularly. Personally, I would prefer a competition structure to be simple and straightforward to follow. Effectively one route for all. A level playing field is about equality of opportunity and access to opportunity. It is not about everyone being entitled to win, even when they are not good enough.

 

[Bernster]

Is the debate solely about affiliated comps then? I didn’t read it like that.

I get that affiliated should be for those working at higher levels within each stage, and the champs for them should be sufficiently challenging for them. But what I’m saying is why can’t there be an equivalent structure and equal challenge (unaff) for those not at the affiliated level for example?

For me it’s not about dumbing down existing comps, but providing an alternative for those who won’t ever do those existing comps. Different audience, different ability, still challenging. Why can’t they have access? It’s not equal imo to have widely different abilities compete in the same class.

ETA if you prefer to go up against those way more proficient, great, good for you. But why can’t others, who don’t want to do that, have something that works for them. It comes across as elitist to wish to exclude folks (like me).

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I did not read it as a dicussion about affiliated. Though actually I think that lower levels should also come under BE to prevent fragmentation and people abandonoing BE altogether. But that's a different discussion - and there's a thread on that already. NSEA has a good structure I think with their 'grassroots' competitions starting at about 45cm up to 70cm and then the main competitions starting from 70cm SJ.

I just profoundly disagree with the general attitude that lower level riders should just 'improve' till they can compete with 'the best' which presumably means pros which also presumably means no-one below BE90 or BE100 should have competitions geared for them.

I think it is sad that a person wanting to compete at - say 70 or 80 - and having to work hard to get there would viewed in such a negative light and those riders are declared not 'good enough' or an 'also ran'. I think that attitde is elitist and totally unnecessary. If someone wants to target comps where 'the best' are there, then great. Good on them and go for it. But there is room in the sport for other ambitions and other goals. I have always had a passion for helping people believe they belong places where they often feel they don't. I am totally focused on persuading people into sport - whether riding or triathlon - and into competitive sport if they want to. Someone who came to camp last year in a last ditch effort to overcome their fear of jumping before they gave up and sold their horse is now targeting the Brigante cup this season. When she jumped a line of 60/70cm XC fences and burst into tears, we ALL cried. Even the instructor! The idea that her achievement in getting round an 80 ODE would be dumbing down and she really should go away and try harder just baffles me.

 

[milliepops]

I can see both sides of this, on the one hand i think the word "championship" does kind of imply achievement of a reasonably high level.

On the other hand i am sure it gives people of all levels a lot of enjoyment having something to aim for.

Looking at other sports there is literally no sport or activity that i would consider myself good enough to aim at a championship in and would expect to have to reach a high level before there would be something for me other than *taking part* or *making up the numbers* which would be fine from the POV of my expectations. I think that's where there's a dichotomy because the various unaff equestrian orgs run championships from very low levels upwards.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Triathlon has Ironman, 1/2 Ironman, Olympic, Sprint, Super Sprint Super League and championships within each distance. There was a similar outcry about super-sprint at first with some holding the view that people should just train harder and do a 'proper' race. But if you win a Super League then you are still beating all the others at Super League distance and the winners are bl00dy fast! In fact short course has become so popular that a lot of pros now choose to become short course specilaists so it's a bit diffefent but it is still a great way into the sport.

Tennis has leagues and you have to move up once you reach a certain number of match wins or points but each league has it's own championship equivalents. Everyone knows they are in a lower level league. But it wouldn't be a lot of fun if you could not target tournaments pretty early on in your tennis journey and then aim for an end of year 'final' or championship. Football has multiple leagues or divisions and the finals or league cups matter a lot to those players. No-one thinks they are in the premier league. They know where they are but still take it seriously.

I totally get why some people aren't interested and would rather stay non competitive till they are good enough to affiliate or compete at a higher level. I won't ever do anything below 80 again. Or do a competitive intro test again. I won't take Lottie into a 60 or 70 cm SJ competition, because I would - personally - no longer find taking a horse round at that level an achievement. I'd get as much satisfaction doing that at home. But I certinaly did when I first got back into jumping. What I struggle with understanding is why anyone would begrudge anyone who targets lower level competition. It makes no difference to those higher up and all the difference in the world to those for whom it's a huge achievement.

 

[Roxylola]

Its not just BE champs and actually I quite like their structure, however BD literally advertise a championship for everyone

3 scores over 60% to qualify and as far as I know those same scores could count towards area festival or regional qualifications as well.
Personally I do think BD have gone a bit far, and honestly it feel its a bit money grabbing.
60% isn't really a champs score in my opinion particularly at the lower levels

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Yeah I know nothing about dressage and I do definitely agree that you need to be good at that level and should be beating alot of other people to win a sash or a trophy. And that 60% should not be a championship score.

In triathlon you need to be within a certain percentage of the winning time to qualify so not only do you have to place quite high to qualify but you also have to meet a minimum standard. I am not about prizes for turning up! I think that whoever wins the Brigante Cup will he a very, very good rider who has performed well and consistently all season and who will beat a lot of people along the way. But it does need to be genuinely competitive. And NSEA grassroots is. As are the Eland Lodge Unaff events - full everytime. Winning those is an achievement at all levels.

If it's not actually competiitve it defeats the object which is to give people the experience of aiming for a big goal, qualifying and possibly placing. Which hopefully then inspires them to keep improving to try and either do better next time or move up a level

 

[TPO]

I've probably read this all wrong but I thought the OP "complaint" was that despite there being a "Championship" for just about everyone there are still people complaining that there isn't one for them.

For example I have a Quarter Horse and within the "Championships for All" the Roxy posted there is nothing exactly for me. Why isn't there a more generic foreign breeds class or one specifically for American breeds*?

*there may well be, I have no idea and genuinely not bothered by this

So yeah I didn't read it as if people shouldn't aim for whatever champs but more that there are plenty of things to aim for yet still "TPO, 39 with a QH who has a nice tail" nothing that precisely fits "my" requirements and why do people think they are owed that when there would be nothing to stop me aiming for a plethora of existing champs.

That was my take on it anyway?

 

[Roxylola]

Don't get me wrong, if we're out above medium when Charlie is 15 (still a few years off) I might have a crack at the veterans. Realistically he's not going to be a regionals horse at that level, and while I might do areas I'm not going to chase qualifying scores so 3 at 60+ should be quite achievable without really putting pressure on him. And even at areas I'd be against much looser nicer movers, especially considering he's (we are) getting older and stiffer by that time.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I don’t really disagree with the OP and the comments about people complaining that there isn’t a specific league just for them. But the conversation moved on from that I think.