Change of use for livery, local farmer exempt?

From the planning officer's letter:
'if the liveries, or any recreational horses, are being kept on Fields x-y then it seems this may be a change of use from agricultural land. In these places, based on the planning history, we would only expect to see horses of an agricultural definition – that usually is horses which literally only graze the land and not any recreational horses or horses kept under a livery agreement. Unless 10 years continuous use can be demonstrated that the land has been used for that purpose, I’m afraid it will require planning permission.'
 
Santi said:
From the planning officer's letter:
'if the liveries, or any recreational horses, are being kept on Fields x-y then it seems this may be a change of use from agricultural land. In these places, based on the planning history, we would only expect to see horses of an agricultural definition – that usually is horses which literally only graze the land and not any recreational horses or horses kept under a livery agreement. Unless 10 years continuous use can be demonstrated that the land has been used for that purpose, I’m afraid it will require planning permission.'
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But that doesn't acknowledge that you also have sheep on the land. I appreciate the PO only has the complaint to go on at this stage but that is why you need legal advice. My advice is to do all you can to avoid applying for change of use
 
ycbm said:
Farm land is free of inheritance tax when you die.
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ycbm said:
If you have a holding number for it and it is classed as farmland, and is legally separate from a non farm domestic property it's my understanding there would be no IHT, but it's possible you may also need to run some sheep.
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Unfortunately not true at all. We have just had to pay a hefty tax bill on my late father’s estate. His land has always been classed as agricultural and has a holding no etc, despite me having horses on it for decades (and sheep now and again). Sadly it means I have to now sell off part of the farm, which has been in my family for 60 years. There’s no money, just property. I think it sucks!
 
Honey08 said:
Unfortunately not true at all. We have just had to pay a hefty tax bill on my late father’s estate. His land has always been classed as agricultural and has a holding no etc, despite me having horses on it for decades (and sheep now and again). Sadly it means I have to now sell off part of the farm, which has been in my family for 60 years. There’s no money, just property. I think it sucks!
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Isn't that because you have kept horses on it though ? And not cattle and sheep or arable.
 
Honey08 said:
Yes - basically because it’s not a working farm.. Although we have had sheep from time to time.

I’m just saying that simply keeping the lane registered as agricultural and having a holding number does not exempt you from IHT on land.
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The holding number is simply so that DEFRA can trace animals in the event of F&M or other disease outbreak. It honestly gives you no rights at all, it's an identifying number and nothing more.
 
Aparently there are 7 (i think) classes of horse. Some need change of use from agricultural, some dont.
They include riding, breeding, grazing, commercial, leisure etc.
It isnt always just the land that determines whether you need planning permission. What you do with the horses is taken into account too.
Its all very complicated.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
But that doesn't acknowledge that you also have sheep on the land. I appreciate the PO only has the complaint to go on at this stage but that is why you need legal advice. My advice is to do all you can to avoid applying for change of use
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Would you avoid having land classed as equestrian only for IHT purposes, or are there any other disadvantages? Thinking of applying for some of it to be Equestrian and retain the rest as Ag.
 
Honey08 said:
Unfortunately not true at all. We have just had to pay a hefty tax bill on my late father’s estate. His land has always been classed as agricultural and has a holding no etc, despite me having horses on it for decades (and sheep now and again). Sadly it means I have to now sell off part of the farm, which has been in my family for 60 years. There’s no money, just property. I think it sucks!
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But sadly I think that's because you've had horses on it - although it's worth taking professional advice because I know one farm near here that diversified into liveries 20 years ago and still got some IHT exemption due to past cattle breeding.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
The holding number is simply so that DEFRA can trace animals in the event of F&M or other disease outbreak. It honestly gives you no rights at all, it's an identifying number and nothing more.
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If you don't have one, though, then it's a slam dunk you haven't got a farm for IHT purposes, no?
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Santi said:
Would you avoid having land classed as equestrian only for IHT purposes, or are there any other disadvantages? Thinking of applying for some of it to be Equestrian and retain the rest as Ag.
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My understanding is that you are less likely to need PP on agricultural land than on equestrian land. I really wouldn't apply for change of use without seeking proper legal advice. Some of the advice offered by lay people on this thread is questionable imho. I would expect that change of use would devalue your land. Your land is already recognised as a farm because you get the subsidy. LA employees are not always as knowledgeable as they think and often won't back down even when they are wrong. I have experience of having to go down the formal complaint route. My complaint was upheld and employee reined in. Again, this was as a result of neighbour contacting the Dept and their word being accepted instead of a proper investigation being carried out.
 
ycbm said:
If you don't have one, though, then it's a slam dunk you haven't got a farm for IHT purposes, no?
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Nope.. we don’t have a holding number but we do get farm subsidies… it’s never that straight forward. If you let out chunks of land someone else can farm the whole lot and you don’t need any numbers but it’s definitely being used for agriculture.
 
Pearlsacarolsinger said:
My understanding is that you are less likely to need PP on agricultural land than on equestrian land. I really wouldn't apply for change of use without seeking proper legal advice. Some of the advice offered by lay people on this thread is questionable imho. I would expect that change of use would devalue your land. Your land is already recognised as a farm because you get the subsidy. LA employees are not always as knowledgeable as they think and often won't back down even when they are wrong. I have experience of having to go down the formal complaint route. My complaint was upheld and employee reined in. Again, this was as a result of neighbour contacting the Dept and their word being accepted instead of a proper investigation being carried out.
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permitted development of buildings is on any parcel of land bigger than about 14 acres… can’t remember the exact number but it has to be for agricultural use,,.
 
blitznbobs said:
Nope.. we don’t have a holding number but we do get farm subsidies… it’s never that straight forward. If you let out chunks of land someone else can farm the whole lot and you don’t need any numbers but it’s definitely being used for agriculture.
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It’s changed from when I first registered my land then, because back then I couldn't get the farm building renovation subsidy without having a holding number. At the time the MAFF (that dates it! ) official told me that horses weren't agricultural but grazing activity by horses was, so I qualified for a gi-normous EU grant on reroofing the old barn we'd made into stables. My neighbours had bought a farm so they could pass it to the children without IHT but got fed up with living there long before they died, so that plan went to pot.
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Honey, I would be miffed about that, especially as you have kept sheep on the land. But have you got an agricultural specialist to do the valuations, etc.? And a solicitor who knows about agriculture? But I presume you have taken all the advice you can about this.

I know that HMRC are after every penny they can get and you don't want to throw more money after it and they will persue people, like having a retired farmer still living in the farm house. If you are retired then you aren't farming and therefore no longer entitled to Agricuture Relief (there have been cases).

So when my sister-in-law came back from registering her Mother's death and I looked to see "Retired Farmer" I handed it back and said "You will have to go back and get that altered" because she wasn't retired, despite her age, she was still in business and still doing tax return etc. even though physically she was doing very little.

This was quite a long time ago now and I don't know if HMRC are even more picky.
 
I assume that the only part of your land that the sheep never access is the arena, which you have already got PP fir. If I were you, I'd be looking for a way that I could utilise the school for sheep, rather than agreeing to restrict their use of any of the grazing. The grazing needs the sheep to keep it in good heart anyway.
 
I vaguely remember seeing an indoor school being used to store agricultural machinery, it was described as a machinery store. I am sure that you could change the use of your school to one of machinery storage.😉
Also be aware that if your neighbour has started on the complaint route, they may well carry on and you will then have visits from a number of official bodies. It becomes a bit like that old song, "it was on a Monday morning when the gas man came to call"!
 
Orangehorse said:
Honey, I would be miffed about that, especially as you have kept sheep on the land. But have you got an agricultural specialist to do the valuations, etc.? And a solicitor who knows about agriculture? But I presume you have taken all the advice you can about this.

I know that HMRC are after every penny they can get and you don't want to throw more money after it and they will persue people, like having a retired farmer still living in the farm house. If you are retired then you aren't farming and therefore no longer entitled to Agricuture Relief (there have been cases).

So when my sister-in-law came back from registering her Mother's death and I looked to see "Retired Farmer" I handed it back and said "You will have to go back and get that altered" because she wasn't retired, despite her age, she was still in business and still doing tax return etc. even though physically she was doing very little.

This was quite a long time ago now and I don't know if HMRC are even more picky.
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Thanks, yes we did look into it, had a land agent’s valuation and opinion, plus a solicitor who was supposed to be good. I did a lot of searching myself. The only exemption for IHT with horses was for stud farms.

We’ve had a real fun ride with IHT. They granted probate then two months later decided they’d changed their minds and told us they were sending a district valuer out. Two months later the valuer came. He was very young and was based 50 miles away. Dressed in a smart suit and shiny shoes to value a farm! He was very nice, but knew nothing about land. I asked did he want to come and see the land, and he said “oh no, land’s land, isn’t it!” I pointed out that land in prime Cheshire (where he was from) would be much more expensive than in a damp corner of the Pennines like ours. He didn’t even go near the stables (I was gutted as I hadn’t creosoted them this year, and hadn’t swept the yard or tidied the muck heap for three weeks because I didn’t want it to look smart/expensive!!🤣). Anyway he finally decided on the same value that the local valuers had given. Six months of extra stress for that!
 
ycbm said:
I was informed by a planning officer that if I could park a tractor on my "hardstanding" every night that I would not need to apply for planning consent for what was actually a riding arena. 15 years ago, might not be the same now.
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It appears to be 'lamanitic paddocks' now. Typically I spent a fortune getting proper planning, when all I needed was a photo of a fat pony stood in it!
 
Santi said:
It appears to be 'lamanitic paddocks' now. Typically I spent a fortune getting proper planning, when all I needed was a photo of a fat pony stood in it!
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Yes, the other suggestion the planning officer said was to park some sheep on it from time to time but it wasn't fenced. I didn't own a tractor, either. I got planning consent.
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Santi said:
From the planning officer's letter:
'if the liveries, or any recreational horses, are being kept on Fields x-y then it seems this may be a change of use from agricultural land. In these places, based on the planning history, we would only expect to see horses of an agricultural definition – that usually is horses which literally only graze the land and not any recreational horses or horses kept under a livery agreement. Unless 10 years continuous use can be demonstrated that the land has been used for that purpose, I’m afraid it will require planning permission.'
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Sorry to jump on the conversation so late in the day.

I had similar issues. It's all about the terminology.

So how I worked it out was this (obviously it differs from council area to council area). You can 'graze' horses on agricultural land - no problem. but you can not 'keep' horses on agri land without a change of use. So your horses can live out grazing in the field, but you shouldn't feed, hay or rug them in the field - that becomes 'keeping' rather than 'grazing' so unless you have enough land to not hay in the field in winter and are happy for them to live out unrugged in winter you will need to get a change of use. The time frame the PO has mentioned maybe be incorrect as they do get things wrong from time to time. Ours told us it was 10 years for lawful use, but it was actually 5 years and as we had been their 7 yrs at the time, with a good rural planning guy we got round it.

Good Luck - and when its all sorted make sure the complaining neighbours gets a taste of his own medicine (or worse!!)
 
dorsetladette said:
Ours told us it was 10 years for lawful use, but it was actually 5 years
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Hmm, that's really interesting, how long ago was that? I did check the planning portal and it said it's ten years, but I think it used to be less? But... doesn't the x number of years thing simply mean that it becomes 'legal' - so they could argue that I don't need permission, but now I have changed the use of the land to equestrian, automatically?
 
dorsetladette said:
Sorry to jump on the conversation so late in the day.

I had similar issues. It's all about the terminology.

So how I worked it out was this (obviously it differs from council area to council area). You can 'graze' horses on agricultural land - no problem. but you can not 'keep' horses on agri land without a change of use. So your horses can live out grazing in the field, but you shouldn't feed, hay or rug them in the field - that becomes 'keeping' rather than 'grazing' so unless you have enough land to not hay in the field in winter and are happy for them to live out unrugged in winter you will need to get a change of use. The time frame the PO has mentioned maybe be incorrect as they do get things wrong from time to time. Ours told us it was 10 years for lawful use, but it was actually 5 years and as we had been their 7 yrs at the time, with a good rural planning guy we got round it.

Good Luck - and when its all sorted make sure the complaining neighbours gets a taste of his own medicine (or worse!!)
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But if you have sheep on the land you can put hay out for them
 
Santi said:
Hmm, that's really interesting, how long ago was that? I did check the planning portal and it said it's ten years, but I think it used to be less? But... doesn't the x number of years thing simply mean that it becomes 'legal' - so they could argue that I don't need permission, but now I have changed the use of the land to equestrian, automatically?
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This was 2020.

We applied for a certificate of lawful use.
 
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