Charging extra to fill up water buckets?!!?

Luci07 said:
Easy - tell her you are expecting her to your horse on New Years Day normal times...!! OK doesn't sound you are going to trust her to do it... but come on..... you will at least have 5 minutes amusement while she tries to wriggle out of it!
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you are right about the trust bit, she'd do it, but it will prob likely to be standing in till after 10am before getting its feed & then brought in about 3 & its used to being out about 8-10 hrs+ at present (and the stable is disgusting if its left in late in the morning :( ) and the mucking out will be ineffective with lots of bits of droppings left in there, so am happier paying a trusted person to do the job :)
 
minmax said:
Just a thought... does this mean in harsh weather conditions, grooms will be paid extra? As they have a hell of a lot more to do in this weather, horses in more, drinking and pooing more etc. I bet not.
If you offer a service, take into account what you are providing.
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Actually, my staff don't have MORE to do - they still work the same hours - we just dump the non-essential stuff. It's obviously far less pleasant working with horses in this weather - but I try to make it a bit easier and nicer (hot meals for lunch instead of sandwiches etc.. extra coffee breaks in a well-heated tackroom with a dash of Bailey's in the coffee etc.)

I don't have liveries - and thankfully only one schooling livery at present. She's not being 'schooled' at present as we're frozen solid - so I've dropped her weekly charge to reflect this (although she still has to be loose schooled to stop her going nuts as she's decided she WON'T be turned out in this weather - or at least she will go out - but goes dangerously mental when she's had enough and thinks we're too slow getting her in! :rolleyes:)

But if I WAS doing liveries, I would charge DIY-ers more if I had to do things they would normally do. But providing a SOURCE of water is YO's responsibility - it's not THAT hard to put 45 gallon butts around the yard for people to help themselves! I'm having to do that for my own horses as we only have one tap working at present.

But I think it's about 'give and take' - some livery clients just take - as do some YO's. If everyone mucks in when they can, you wouldn't mind doing a bit more for them when they can't!
 
The charge is fair for DIY liveries who are up anyway and could bring water from home. Part/full livery is paying for care, so no, not fair to charge extra for filling water buckets - refilling buckets of water is probably in the contract tbh!
 
I'm afraid I seethed when I read your reply minmax, as we usually provide haylage included in our DIY livery.
It costs us time, money and effort and investment in machinery to make it, and this year when we realised it wouldn't be possible (yes, it wasn't possible not because of any other reason) we went to a farmsale and bought some. It cost £28 a bale which by the time the contractor had charged £250 to deliver it was more like £32.
I emailed all my liveries and explained it was impossible at those prices to include hay this time, and gave them an extra charge varying between £5 and £8 a week extra for hay in the fields. My long term retired lot I didn't because they pay a higher rate anyway.
Or they could supply their own haylage.
Some have and it's costing them £45 a bale.
Your post implies that regardless of whether haylage costs go up YO should not increase their prices, why not? When oil goes up do you march into the garage and say they shouldn't pass the increase on to you?
Sorry but you have really annoyed me today, as people who have done our damndest to help our liveries (we haven't seen some since well before Christmas) moaners like you make me feel like giving up.
I'd love you to tell me how you think we can offer haylage included at those prices for £20 a week? (oh and they get beautiful indoor boxes a 60 x 20 arena, daily checking included in that price.. )
As for your other question my daughter works as an eventing groom and got a nice bonus from her bosses for Christmas, they obviously appreciate that on days when they couldn't reach the yard she managed to muck out hay and feed all their horses..
Please do not lump us all in the same boat !
 
I happily paid extra for bedding when our horses couldn't go out because of the snow and ice last and understood that as hay prices had gone up horrendously I would get an increase in my livery to cover this but I would be seriously upset if my livery yard charged me extra for providing my horse with water.

I know it is an extra expense but I don't really understand why substantial sized livery yards do not invest in protecting their water supplies from freezing and even putting in heated water troughs. Half the time the pipes are outside and are not even lagged. For some reason in this country we seem to like a struggle whereas in the USA its pretty standard to have thing slike heated wash stalls and heated water troughs.
 
I can see both points of this 'issue' and would either pay up (as it is extra work) or take your own water up in containers to the yard.
Our automatic water has been turned off now for almost 6 weeks, we all wrap up one of the yard taps and make sure the kettles have water in overnight to defrost the tap in the mornings (and afternoons). I have one of those H2GO bags that I use to fill the troughs up and a hammer to break through plus filling buckets in the stables. We are storing water in the fridge and in cool bags to keep it from freezing plus I bring 4 2litre bottles of warm water from home every morning to make up feeds... lots of faffing and tedious work but needs must as we do not have services on the yard and if someone was happy to take on the 'water duty' I would be happy to pay a fee instead we share the work load :)
 
I'm a YO and provide DIY livery. Normally they would fill their own buckets from outside but recently I've had to lug out water from the house coz all the outside taps have been frozen up. There's only three horses here including mine, and I haven't charged.

However, if the YO in question is basically having to fill up god knows how many water buckets on a daily basis at the yard mentioned by the OP, and is getting his vehicle plus water bowser out to do so, and this is causing additional work on a corporate basis, then IMO it wouldn't be unreasonable to charge. I would presume that liveries would normally do their own water filling and this would be included in their livery?

If you're feeling aggrieved towards the YO for charging in this situation, please bear in mind that as a YO one feels terribly pressured and responsible for ensuring everyone's horse has got water in this weather. Its a huge responsibility and I would say that anyone at that yard should feel blimmin lucky that someone else has the responsibility of it and is doing something about it! Coz not everywhere would.

Also, please bear in mind that many YO's have got other livestock which frankly they're worried sick about how they're going to get water to, its not just the horses involved.

Also, please remember that its very probable that the YO is having to pay for this water as its metered, whereas perhaps normally the liveries would fill up from a rainwater butt like they do here (mains if no rainwater available).

I've got a burst pipe situation at the moment; thank god we've got a thaw so at least the horses are OK from the rainwater butts outside which are now filling up nicely, but a few days ago my liveries had to bring their own water coz I'd had to switch my mains off or else I'd have flooded.

If you're at a yard where the YO is prepared to get water to your horse, whatever the price, for gods sake be grateful and pay up and be happy that someone else has thought to do it and is prepared to freeze their butts off to do it, OR bring some from home if not frozen up like many of us. Argue the rights and wrongs later, or go somewhere else!!
 
it has been a very harsh december. all my horses (25) have had there water done 3 to 4 times a day. yes the extra staff hours have to be paid for. for any of the moaning liveries here if you pitched in and lent a hand maybe you wouldnt be charged! some of my liveries have been brilliant , arriving and asking if they can do anything to help? (yards love this type of livery and tend to help them too in times of need) and the ones that IF they arrive only moan, look at there pony, brush(if pony is lucky) moan a bit more then go. if you really think you can do it all better buy your own land,and field and tap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and no my liveries havent been billed for anything extra! yet...
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
I'm a YO and provide DIY livery. Normally they would fill their own buckets from outside but recently I've had to lug out water from the house coz all the outside taps have been frozen up. There's only three horses here including mine, and I haven't charged.

The YO has water in his house which he is using to fill the water containers, however Liveries regardless if DIY, Part Or Full are not allowed in his house to use his water so you either have to take your own or be charged £1.50 for him to fill your buckets.

However, if the YO in question is basically having to fill up god knows how many water buckets on a daily basis at the yard mentioned by the OP, and is getting his vehicle plus water bowser out to do so, and this is causing additional work on a corporate basis, then IMO it wouldn't be unreasonable to charge. I would presume that liveries would normally do their own water filling and this would be included in their livery?

Normally DIY (maybe Part) have access to taps around the yard to fill their water buckets. These have been turned off to stop the pipes from bursting so...you either have to take your own or be charged £1.50 for him to fill your buckets. Yes he is doing extra work by filling the containers and then driving them around the yard however...If your DIY or Part then i can understand the charge but not to FULL LIVERY who rely on the service the yard provides. Surely a person on Full Livery should expect water to be included in their service...Whats next charging extra to tie up a hay net, Charge extra to put the kick bolt on?!!!?

If you're feeling aggrieved towards the YO for charging in this situation, please bear in mind that as a YO one feels terribly pressured and responsible for ensuring everyone's horse has got water in this weather. Its a huge responsibility and I would say that anyone at that yard should feel blimmin lucky that someone else has the responsibility of it and is doing something about it! Coz not everywhere would.

We are all grateful that the YO and YM keep an eye on all the horses, however if they don't want this responsibility then don't run a business that involves animals. The rule on the yard is DIY liveries have to attend to their horses at least once a day. I don't know any DIY livery on my yard that doesn't go at least twice. Please don't tar all DIY liveries with the same brush. We may pay less for a service but that doesn't mean we don't look after our horses.

Also, please bear in mind that many YO's have got other livestock which frankly they're worried sick about how they're going to get water to, its not just the horses involved.

There is no other livestock at out yard, just horses.

Also, please remember that its very probable that the YO is having to pay for this water as its metered, whereas perhaps normally the liveries would fill up from a rainwater butt like they do here (mains if no rainwater available).

I pay for my water at home on a meter...therefore i am paying livery and adding 40L of water a day to my own water bill. The YO would have to pay for the water if he was filling the buckets or i was?!!?

I've got a burst pipe situation at the moment; thank god we've got a thaw so at least the horses are OK from the rainwater butts outside which are now filling up nicely, but a few days ago my liveries had to bring their own water coz I'd had to switch my mains off or else I'd have flooded.

Maybe you should have switched your water off sooner and charged your liveries £1.50 to fill their buckets?!!? Sorry to be flippant but this point is the source of the original argument.

If you're at a yard where the YO is prepared to get water to your horse, whatever the price, for gods sake be grateful and pay up and be happy that someone else has thought to do it and is prepared to freeze their butts off to do it, OR bring some from home if not frozen up like many of us. Argue the rights and wrongs later, or go somewhere else!!
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I bring my water from home, as do many others. The point of this argument wasn't the YO doing checks on peoples horses and filling buckets where necessary. The argument was that he's turned the water off to everyone and has said either "Pay Me more to fill buckets" or "Bring your own"...excuse the pun but he has you over a barrel...or should that be water butt!!!
There is no where to get water at that yard unless you pay the YO £1.50 for a 25L water container or take your own down (which i do) But there are people on FULL LIVERY that perhaps can't get to the yard everyday hence why they are on Full Livery and they are being forced to pay £1.50 a bucket of water on top of their livery charge. Surely water should be included in the price of the Full Livery?
 
Water is one of the basic necessities a yard must provide. I don't see any reason to charge extra for it in bad weather because the yard fails to provide one of the basic requirements necessary for a horse's welfare. In the OP's post, I'd be expecting the YO to get his pipes lagged and/or heated rather than switch off the water and then charge extra for providing it. I'm so glad I'm at a small, rather posh showjumping yard where the owner and staff realise these things are not luxuries but essentials. I am happy to pay more for feed if prices go up and I get a month's notice.

I'd hate to be in a yard that had the attitude of charging your more for basic things like water and how you had to be grateful for continuing to get the service you are paying for in bad weather, and who used what is perfectly normal winter weather in Northern Europe as an excuse for claiming it was exceptional conditions. Sound like panicers to me and not the sort I'd want around my horse. Plus imagine how many other extras might be added on - taking longer to walk through muddy fields, wet rugs take longer to take off and have to be hung up to dry, more water in hot conditions as horses thirstier, and so on. Its potentially never ending and not the sort of business I would give my custom to.
 
OK thanks for clarifying sit.

This weather has created huge problems for liveries and YO's alike. I hope everyone manages to resolve this without too much more illfeeling; no-one needs it.

My livery (bless her) is a Real Star; when we had to switch off the mains coz of the burst pipe, and all the water butts outside were frozen up, and I was *****ting sirens and blue lights because I just didn't know what I was going to do for water for my horse for the night, she brought my boy enough for a bucket of water from her home, and also offered to supply us (humans) as well!!! Isn't she a sweetie?
 
Well with my livery it is the other way round.

In this very bad weather she has kept the troughs topped up and fed the horses their hay at lunch time as well as feeding and haying in the morning.

If I have not been able to get to the yard she has done them all the time.

She will get a reduced rent (Although I do not think she will except that).

We have all had a problem and have had to do extras
 
I must admit I don't really understand why this is such an issue with your yard. I know that the amount of snow we have had is unusual but this is not what freezes the pipes. Sub-zero temperatures in the winter are not unheard of and should have been factored into YM/YOs business plan so extra charges are not incurred. On our yard we have heard of winter and before the weather set in we sorted out lots of containers and filled them up with water. Each day someone defrosts the tap using the kettle in the tack room which is kept full and supplied with several extra bottles full of water in case one kettle full is not enough. Then we fill up all the containers again. This way all the horses have water, no-one pays any extra and yes, it is extra time and hassle but it does the job. Surely it would be possible for your YO to allow the water supply to be switched on once a day for long enough to fill a load of containers? If not then I don't see why he/she shouldn't run a hosepipe out of the window to do this...water is a basic requirement, after all.
 
henryhorn said:
I'm afraid I seethed when I read your reply minmax, as we usually provide haylage included in our DIY livery.
It costs us time, money and effort and investment in machinery to make it, and this year when we realised it wouldn't be possible (yes, it wasn't possible not because of any other reason) we went to a farmsale and bought some. It cost £28 a bale which by the time the contractor had charged £250 to deliver it was more like £32.
I emailed all my liveries and explained it was impossible at those prices to include hay this time, and gave them an extra charge varying between £5 and £8 a week extra for hay in the fields. My long term retired lot I didn't because they pay a higher rate anyway.
Or they could supply their own haylage.
Some have and it's costing them £45 a bale.
Your post implies that regardless of whether haylage costs go up YO should not increase their prices, why not? When oil goes up do you march into the garage and say they shouldn't pass the increase on to you?
Sorry but you have really annoyed me today, as people who have done our damndest to help our liveries (we haven't seen some since well before Christmas) moaners like you make me feel like giving up.
I'd love you to tell me how you think we can offer haylage included at those prices for £20 a week? (oh and they get beautiful indoor boxes a 60 x 20 arena, daily checking included in that price.. )
As for your other question my daughter works as an eventing groom and got a nice bonus from her bosses for Christmas, they obviously appreciate that on days when they couldn't reach the yard she managed to muck out hay and feed all their horses..
Please do not lump us all in the same boat !
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Having re read my post, I meant they pay nearly £200 a week, so are making enough per horse already. Hence I feel its tough re not getting a second cut.
If you are offering DIY, with hay inc then at the price you are charging, fair play to add extra now. Nowhere near me would offer it at that low price with hay inc.
I pay £30 per horse, DIY for my boys, with nothing inc.
I have gone up to mine every day, twice a day and had to bring water from home as taps not working. Some liveries have come up late, ie lunchtime... knowing all us lot will hay and water their horses. I am sick of other peoples horses kicking the doors as lazy owners cannot be arsed to get out of bed or pay someone to do them.
I too have been a groom for many years... had decent bonus's and nice prezzies from some and fugger all from others.....
Not anymore though
I seeth when I read what some poeple put on here but it is a forum with lots of different views.....
 
As others have said, anyone involved in horses has to take the good with the bad, particularly in terms of weather. It's hard work for everyone at the moment but you just have to get on with it. The YO could quite easily find some very large containers/baths to fill up with an extra long hosepipe during the day/ when they are out and about. Then when they turned the water off the liveries could help themselves. That's what we're doing. Just filling up large bins, baths, troughs etc and then breaking the ice to get the water out. You can also insulate these large containers in the muck heap or with used straw. Why is that so out of the question? Sometimes with a business you have to use your initiative and yes sometimes you have to go the extra mile.

There is no way i would pay an extra 1.50 for every time the bucket had to be filled. Over time that could cost a small fortune. I would however ensure that my horse had a huge well insulated bucket and would bring my own water if needs be.
 
I am a YO with 25 horses to care for on a mixture of DIY Part and Full livery. Our water has been frozen outside for all but a couple of days since late November and we are having to provide water from the house. Our water is charged differently for the outside water and the house, which costs considerably more. I am currently filling water containers by bucket and funnel from the utility room sink as tap not suitable for a hose, couldn't hose to the main yard anyway as it is a good 600yards away. I have been transporting water and filling buckets for all liveries and sorting water in fields including carrying it out by hand to offer three times a day when the troughs froze to the bottom. I have made no extra charge even though it is taking me between two and three hours a day often in temperatures below -10. Over the Christmas period I asked the liveries to collect their own water from the house, where we helped them fill containers. Some of the liveries have been happy to do it and allow me time for a little bit of Christmas with my four children. Others have either moaned incessantly or simply not filled their buckets or troughs. As I check all the horses for food and water regularly I then stop what I am doing to sort them out. I have carried on providing haylage in the fields across the whole holiday period too.

I am reaching a point of complete exhaustion and I am taking on the appearance of a gibbon carrying around 500litres of water as a minimum every day, and my deisel bill for using the 4x4 to get to some areas is going to be huge. All I ask is that everyone actually care whether their own horses have food and water.
 
dont you find the old saying 'if you want something done ask a busy person' rins true wether a livery or yard owner, as a farmer work 365 days a year fed up with hearing people moan when alot o go the extra mile, going to have to tell few people we supply with hay cant have anymore and dreading it, but cant feed there horses and starve my 3,plus 6oo sheep and 100 cattle that is harsh realatiy of life
 
henryhorn said:
I'm afraid I seethed when I read your reply minmax, as we usually provide haylage included in our DIY livery.
It costs us time, money and effort and investment in machinery to make it, and this year when we realised it wouldn't be possible (yes, it wasn't possible not because of any other reason) we went to a farmsale and bought some. It cost £28 a bale which by the time the contractor had charged £250 to deliver it was more like £32.
I emailed all my liveries and explained it was impossible at those prices to include hay this time, and gave them an extra charge varying between £5 and £8 a week extra for hay in the fields. My long term retired lot I didn't because they pay a higher rate anyway.
Or they could supply their own haylage.
Some have and it's costing them £45 a bale.
Your post implies that regardless of whether haylage costs go up YO should not increase their prices, why not? When oil goes up do you march into the garage and say they shouldn't pass the increase on to you?
Sorry but you have really annoyed me today, as people who have done our damndest to help our liveries (we haven't seen some since well before Christmas) moaners like you make me feel like giving up.
I'd love you to tell me how you think we can offer haylage included at those prices for £20 a week? (oh and they get beautiful indoor boxes a 60 x 20 arena, daily checking included in that price.. )
As for your other question my daughter works as an eventing groom and got a nice bonus from her bosses for Christmas, they obviously appreciate that on days when they couldn't reach the yard she managed to muck out hay and feed all their horses..
Please do not lump us all in the same boat !
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Good post!
 
hazelhorse said:
I am a YO with 25 horses to care for on a mixture of DIY Part and Full livery. Our water has been frozen outside for all but a couple of days since late November and we are having to provide water from the house. Our water is charged differently for the outside water and the house, which costs considerably more. I am currently filling water containers by bucket and funnel from the utility room sink as tap not suitable for a hose, couldn't hose to the main yard anyway as it is a good 600yards away. I have been transporting water and filling buckets for all liveries and sorting water in fields including carrying it out by hand to offer three times a day when the troughs froze to the bottom. I have made no extra charge even though it is taking me between two and three hours a day often in temperatures below -10. Over the Christmas period I asked the liveries to collect their own water from the house, where we helped them fill containers. Some of the liveries have been happy to do it and allow me time for a little bit of Christmas with my four children. Others have either moaned incessantly or simply not filled their buckets or troughs. As I check all the horses for food and water regularly I then stop what I am doing to sort them out. I have carried on providing haylage in the fields across the whole holiday period too.

I am reaching a point of complete exhaustion and I am taking on the appearance of a gibbon carrying around 500litres of water as a minimum every day, and my deisel bill for using the 4x4 to get to some areas is going to be huge. All I ask is that everyone actually care whether their own horses have food and water.
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Yep, I agree entirely, I have torn the ligament in my knee due to lugging water about to the DIY lot as 3 of them didnt seem to give a damn....

I also gave them a WEEKS notice that we would be away for the weekend before Xmas and to take barrels from the yard (I provided them) home and fill them, just those two days....while I was away, OR barrow them down to the tap and fill from there (it's the hose that is frozen that feeds the troughs)

Phonecall from upset sis-in-law.....did they bother? did they heckers like, my RETIRED sis-in-law had dragged barrels up from the bottom after defrosting the tap, (liveries perfectly capable if they didn't wish to use their own water from home) otherwise those poor horses would have had NOTHING!

I went nuclear and had rather alot to say to them all, and that next year, I am charging for doing the water when it starts to freeze. Simple as that.
 
sallymoon said:
All livery owners have a legal duty of care to their clients to provide water for their use and the horses, under no circumstances should this be charged for. I would think the charge is for actually filling the buckets, however this is unjust if the owners are willing to do it themselves.

There are far too many bad livery owners out there at the moment who hold captive audiences of horse owners who just dont have any where else to go.

Occasionaly there are good yards to be found with reasonable qualified people who run them but these are very far a few between, and they certainly dont exist in any quantity in Gloucester thats for sure.
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Agree with this.
 
Having worked as a groom for the best part of 4 years and having had horses on diy for the past 7 years I understand the amount of work involved. When I was on diy I would of understood exactly why an additional charge was necessary and paid without question, however currently my horse is on full livery. I would be absolutely furious if charged extra to provide him with water and would move him straight away. £1.50 to fill up water buckets would end up costing at least £3 a day - an additional £21 a week. On full livery I pay more a week than I used to pay a month on diy and during this weather they have had to do a lot less with him than normal. Luckily my YO would not dream of doing this.
 
I think £1.50 is quite a lot to pay every time the water buckets need filling. However what Sidney was offering earlier in the thread sounds superb - an extra £10 per week so that you only had to go once a day - sounds fantastic and that is a service I would definitely pay for if it was available on my yard - unfortunately on my yard, DIY means DIY - not DIY when you can actually be bothered!
 
Just to update...It's been above freezing for 2 days now, not a drop of snow on the ground left after a night of heavy rain and the taps still haven't been switched back on...still charging extra for water and YO said he wants to give it a few days before turning the water on to make sure the pipes aren't still frozen.
The farm next door has water running, even in his fields as the cow troughs are automatic waterer's and i could here the water pouring out. The cottage across the road has a water tap in his greenhouse...working, the pond in the back field is now water again and no longer an ice rink.....

We also got a note..."As the snow is no longer on the yard, liveries can collect filled water containers from the house"....so now no need to jump in his CAT.

A few more days of the extra £1.50 off liveries...cynical...moi?!!?
 
Sedgemoor Chaos said:
Just to update...It's been above freezing for 2 days now, not a drop of snow on the ground left after a night of heavy rain and the taps still haven't been switched back on...still charging extra for water and YO said he wants to give it a few days before turning the water on to make sure the pipes aren't still frozen.
The farm next door has water running, even in his fields as the cow troughs are automatic waterer's and i could here the water pouring out. The cottage across the road has a water tap in his greenhouse...working, the pond in the back field is now water again and no longer an ice rink.....

We also got a note..."As the snow is no longer on the yard, liveries can collect filled water containers from the house"....so now no need to jump in his CAT.

A few more days of the extra £1.50 off liveries...cynical...moi?!!?
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I would simply vote with your feet.
 
I think for the full/part liveries the charge should be waived as that should include the basic care and the price should be an all inclusive price, and the price should be worked out to cover all eventualities, for DIY's understandable as it is an extra service that is being provided that is not normally provided. YO's cannot be responsible for the weather!

If it looks like it is a regular problem with colder winters perhaps the easiest thing to do in future would be a winter levy to cover this sort of eventualities, some winters you might not need the service, other winters you might need it for long periods of time and it would hopefully even things out a bit.

If the pipes do burst it is an expensive nightmare to fix and then the yard could possibly be flooded and if there is a freeze again over night become very slippery and dangerous so I can understand why people might be cautious.

f I was happy with the normal service I pay up and be glad to be on a yard I liked for most of the year or if you think that this unacceptable and other yards are offering a more competitive service during the winter then look at moving.

I think some people forget that YO's are trying to run a business, and the majority of business are looking to make as much money as possible and there is no reason why liveries businesses should be more generous towards their customers than any other business.
 
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