Cheltenham November meeting

[Birker2020]

There is insufficient data on your average leisure riding horses to say. But I would say there are a higher number of welfare issues in non commercial horse world than commercial.

Whilst I hate the idea of horses going to slaughter then arguably it’s no different to that of cattle, sheep or pigs going the same way.

Oh well let's carry on then oblivious and sweep it all under the carpet. 2 or 3 deaths at one race meeting is nothing is it compared with the general populatiin of horses deaths?

Some of these replies are mind boggling. They really are.

 

[Gamebird]

The thing is, I don't think anyone is sweeping anything under the carpet. Racing is very open (more so than most sports), and the statistics are constantly being collated and updated and very easy to find.

As a sport the BHA and various other bodies are constantly reviewing, responding, researching and implementing everything and anything that can improve welfare. Is it perfect? No. Are people trying very hard to make it as safe as possible? Yes.
Obviously the ideal for some people is that racing just wouldn't exist. However currently racing does exist, so in that context I think we should be grateful for those working to make it as safe as possible and uphold the welfare of the horse above all else.

There will always be comparisons with leisure horses and horses in other competitive disciplines. We all know that it is not unusual for horses to suffer fatal cardiovascular events out hunting (I have witnessed several), hacking or in the field, not to mention the whole encyclopaedia of other injuries that are not survivable for horses. However there are no numbers or data for these and they are not televised and do not appear on social media. So we have no way of comparing them to racing deaths and no way of formulating any statistical analysis.

No one is happy about what happened at Cheltenham on Sunday. And no one thinks it should ever happen again. However the cardiovascular fatalities were not predictable, and not preventable. They might have been less likely to have happened had the horses never raced, but it is still possible that they could have happened. We have to be very careful not to view a cluster of rare events as a trend. It is tempting and natural to do so, especially in such emotive circumstances, but it is not a true reflection of the numbers.

Let's get behind all the research and initiatives focused on making racing safer and improving the welfare of racehorses. Some people are doing some really heavy lifting in these areas, and the differences are noticeable, even in the last 10 or so years.

I can absolutely assure you though that no one involved is either carrying on oblivious or sweeping anything under any carpets. It is being taken extremely seriously, from the very top down.

 

[Birker2020]

The thing is, I don't think anyone is sweeping anything under the carpet. Racing is very open (more so than most sports), and the statistics are constantly being collated and updated and very easy to find.
As a sport the BHA and various other bodies are constantly reviewing, responding, researching and implementing everything and anything that can increase welfare. Is it perfect? No. Are people trying very hard to make it as safe as possible? Yes.
Obviously the ideal for some people is that racing just wouldn't exist. However currently racing does exist, so in that context I think we should be grateful for those working to make it as safe as possible and uphold the welfare of the horse above all else.

There will always be comparisons with leisure horses and horses in other competitive disciplines. We all know that it is not unusual for horses to suffer fatal cardiovascular events out hunting (I have witnessed several), hacking or in the field, not to mention the whole encyclopaedia if other injuries that are not survivable for horses. However there are no numbers or data for these and they are not televised and do not appear on social media. So we have no way of comparing them to racing deaths and no way of formulating any statistical analysis.

No one is happy about what happened at Cheltenham on Sunday. And no one thinks it should happen again. However the cardiovascular fatalities were not predictable, and not preventable. They might have been less likely to have happened had the horses never raced, but it is still possible that they could have happened. We have to be very careful not to view a cluster of rare events as a trend. It is tempting and natural to do so, especially in such emotional circumstances, but it is not a true reflection of the numbers.

Let's get behind all the research and initiatives focussed on making racing safer and improving the welfare of racehorses. Some people are doing some really heavy lifting in these areas, and the differences are noticeable, even on the last 10 or so years.

I can absolutely assure you though that no one involved is either carrying on oblivious or sweeping anything under any carpets. It is being taken extremely seriously, from the very top down.

A very detailed and sensible reply to what is a very real problem. No where else on earth do you see such a huge loss of horses lives in sport in front of thousands. And the commentators saying "Snow King has gone wrong" comments, when poor Snow King has a broken foreleg but is trying to keep up with the others whilst the adrenalin flows through him before the inevitable green screens.

This discussion appears to be focused on those with cardio vascular episodes, but this is the very least of their problems. Most are muscular skeletal fatalaties. You only have to look at the last twenty or so and you will see this for yourself.
Discussion about leisure horses is a non sensical argument in my opinion. We are talking about racehorses dying on racecourses in Britain. Agree 100% with what you say about "Let's get behind all the research and initiatives focussed on making racing safer and improving the welfare of racehorses."

As I said before there will be lots of horses that die just out in their paddocks, mine dropped down dead of a suspected heart attack aged 14. It happens, but I wasn't referring to just heart attacks, I was referring to the 80% of injuries that are muscular skeletal, broken backs, necks, legs, pelvis, tendons struck into, etc, etc. I'm no expert in racing, but I know what I read, and I see the figures produced by Animal Aid, and fair play to them, at least someone is keeping an accurate record.

I dislike the sport although I am hypocritical in that I normally organise a sweepstake for the lads on site for the Grand National, but only because it raises funds for a charity close to my heart. I still despise it in all its entirety.

 

[humblepie]

Let's get behind all the research and initiatives focused on making racing safer and improving the welfare of racehorses.

And a lot that racing comes up with will be of help to other sports and leisure horses. There is funding from racing for research and development which a much wider equine population can benefit from in due course.

 

[Fred66]

Oh well let's carry on then oblivious and sweep it all under the carpet. 2 or 3 deaths at one race meeting is nothing is it compared with the general populatiin of horses deaths?

Some of these replies are mind boggling. They really are.

Don’t gaslight me by attributing comments to me that I didn’t make.

Racing has an overall death rate of circa 0.2% of runners , which I stated. Would I prefer it was nil then obviously however what I and others pointed out is that there will also be a death rate in your standard leisure horse and it would help if the two statistics could be compared. This isn’t possible because the data isn’t available. Statistics are just that, numbers compared to other numbers, the fact that 3 horses died at this meeting means statistically then you will have a greater number of meetings with no fatalities.

Do I think overall that welfare in commercially ridden horses is better than in leisure horses, then yes I do. By the very nature then the industry has a financial interest in ensuring horses are kept in a manner that will maximise their performance. The people keeping them are generally more knowledgeable, are there still instances of abuse yes but these tend to get highlighted more.
Racehorses that don’t make the grade have more chances now than ever but yes some still go for meat. Do I like the idea, no but as long as it is done in a humane manner then this is not a welfare issue.

 

[Birker2020]

Don’t gaslight me by attributing comments to me that I didn’t make.

I haven't a scooby what you are on about. I haven't gas lighted anyone. I quoted your post and added my comment. The same as anyone else might quote a post and reply. I fail to see what I have done wrong.

 

[minesadouble]

And a lot that racing comes up with will be of help to other sports and leisure horses. There is funding from racing for research and development which a much wider equine population can benefit from in due course.

And indeed humans.

After a successful course of Shockwave Therapy on a hip injury my Physio told me that the treatment was pioneered for use in racehorses.

 

[Maddie Moo]

Two new studies in Equine Sudden Death have been announced by HISA (US based). Link to full article.

The Group is sponsoring two groundbreaking studies, one of which seeks to identify biomarkers that could be used to identify horses at high risk of EASD, while the other focuses on a comprehensive monitoring program using wearable technology. Both are aimed at developing practical screening tools and reducing EASD occurrences.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I think what doesn't help is the "treated like kings and Queens" line that gets trotted out each time there's a fatality, its almost grating

Maybe there needs to be more transparency around pm reports with connections consent - the one that sickens me most is where the legs are just snapping galloping along, I'd say that's the current biggest fatality problem while of course none are good

Yes I do watch racing, have for a long time, but the leg snapping is especially sickening, I think because there's no direct cause e.g. a crunching fall (not saying these are pleasent) plus the injuries are shown in all the more graphic detail. These are what trouble OH, who is only watching as I have it on, the most

Plus the wastage of all those that don't make the grade. Again there could be more transparency around tracking and what horses are doing in retirement, rather than a great many just "disappearing"

There's a retirements thread on a racing forum, quite a few of these have been successful but no mention or recognition of their retirement on racing post surely there could be a section dedicated to announcing this?

I thought having the vet come out and explain what had happened was a positive step

 

[Birker2020]

Two new studies in Equine Sudden Death have been announced by HISA (US based). Link to full article.

I wonder why they can't do this over here and why we have to rely on RHDW for figures.

 

[Gamebird]

I wonder why they can't do this over here and why we have to rely on RHDW for figures.

Because we don't need to do it over here. If there are groups studying this in the US then the results will apply worldwide - their work will benefit our horses. We can use our research funding to look at other aspects, rather than replicating work someone else is already doing.

 

[Orangehorse]

Remember that an event horse died during a 3 day event of a heart attack and it was owned and ridden by a vet. He was devastated.

I was upset by the events on Sunday, watching on TV, but I had been thinking how good the racing was on Saturday when all the horses came home safe and sound.

Horses are delicate creatures, despite being strong and fast.

 

[Sanversera]

I'm with Birker 2020

 

[Birker2020]

I'm with Birker 2020

So are many more I expect but wouldn't dare admit it on this forum!

 

[Gamebird]

BHA update on the Cheltenham fatalities:

Update regarding Cheltenham fatalities | British Horseracing Authority

www.britishhorseracing.com

 

[humblepie]

BHA update on the Cheltenham fatalities:

Update regarding Cheltenham fatalities | British Horseracing Authority

www.britishhorseracing.com

Thank you for sharing the information. I had switched on the evening racing on Sky a couple of days ago just as they were finishing an interview with Celia Marr which was slightly annoying timing.

 

[splashgirl45]

Thanks Gamebird , 2 of the deaths couldn’t have been prevented, which makes me feel slightly better, I do enjoy NH racing but hate the fatalities as we all do.

 

[Birker2020]

Thanks Gamebird , 2 of the deaths couldn’t have been prevented, which makes me feel slightly better, I do enjoy NH racing but hate the fatalities as we all do.

This isn't a go at you SG. But a seven year old and an eight year old both dying of a heart attack in one race doesn't make me feel slightly better, it makes me feel totally appalled and horrified in equal measures.

Makes me wonder if the horses are fit enough for the 3.5 mile course they were expected to run.

 

[splashgirl45]

This isn't a go at you SG. But a seven year old and an eight year old both dying of a heart attack in one race doesn't make me feel slightly better, it makes me feel totally appalled and horrified in equal measures.

Makes me wonder if the horses are fit enough for the 3.5 mile course they were expected to run.

I know what you mean but heart attacks or anything to do with hearts can happen anywhere. My friend was on her own horse walking home after an hour long walk,trot ride and her horse who was 12 collapsed and died immediately. The horse was used by my friend as lead horse at the stables and did 2 or 3 hours of this type of work daily so she wasn’t an unfit horse dragged out of a field .. it happens in humans as well and they don’t seem to be able to find out why.

 

[Gamebird]

This isn't a go at you SG. But a seven year old and an eight year old both dying of a heart attack in one race doesn't make me feel slightly better, it makes me feel totally appalled and horrified in equal measures.

Makes me wonder if the horses are fit enough for the 3.5 mile course they were expected to run.

Fitness is incredibly hard to measure. Most of these cardiac related sudden deaths are either due to arrhythmias (electrical disturbances) or large vessel rupture. We do not yet know enough about predisposing factors - arrhythmias are particularly difficult to investigate as there is no evidence of them once the heart has stopped.

What we do know can be found in this paper (for those not familiar with scientific statistical analysis skip to the discussion!):

https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2011.00496.x

The HBLB have summarised findings in a slightly more reader friendly format here:

https://www.hblb.org.uk/documents/racehorse_health/CS015%20Sudden%20Death.pdf

And it does seem that the BHA will have some participation in the US study referenced earlier in this thread.

 

[Birker2020]

I know what you mean but heart attacks or anything to do with hearts can happen anywhere. My friend was on her own horse walking home after an hour long walk,trot ride and her horse who was 12 collapsed and died immediately. The horse was used by my friend as lead horse at the stables and did 2 or 3 hours of this type of work daily so she wasn’t an unfit horse dragged out of a field .. it happens in humans as well and they don’t seem to be able to find out why.

Yep lost my super

Fitness is incredibly hard to measure. Most of these cardiac related sudden deaths are either due to arrhythmias (electrical disturbances) or large vessel rupture. We do not yet know enough about predisposing factors - arrhythmias are particularly difficult to investigate as there is no evidence of them once the heart has stopped.

What we do know can be found in this paper (for those not familiar with scientific statistical analysis skip to the discussion!):

https://beva.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.2042-3306.2011.00496.x

The HBLB have summarised findings in a slightly more reader friendly format here:

https://www.hblb.org.uk/documents/racehorse_health/CS015%20Sudden%20Death.pdf

And it does seem that the BHA will have some participation in the US study referenced earlier in this thread.

Thank you

 

[minesadouble]

This isn't a go at you SG. But a seven year old and an eight year old both dying of a heart attack in one race doesn't make me feel slightly better, it makes me feel totally appalled and horrified in equal measures.

Makes me wonder if the horses are fit enough for the 3.5 mile course they were expected to run.

I'm not sure fitness has much to do with equine 'heart attacks'.

One of the dead horses had won it's race. I would argue that if it was fit enough to win it was most certainly fit enough to run.

I'm a competitive long distance runner, distances from 10k - 100k. I have run in varying degrees of fitness and when I'm not fully fit I simply physically cannot perform to the same level, no matter how much effort I put in on the day.
You could send 10 men after me with electric cattle prods and I wouldn't be going any faster than my physiology would allow.
I'm no equine fitness expert but I would imagine the same is true of horses. Racing (especially a weekend meeting at Cheltenham) is very competitive so I would presume the Winner to have been in really good shape from a fitness perspective, to have been able to cross the line in first place.

 

[teapot]

If there was the same number of leisure horses dying as there are racehorses everyone would be up in arms and it'd get banned pretty quick I would imagine. But with the number of horses that die in racing its no where near comparable and it's a daft argument to put forward.

Our riding club has had two deaths that I know of since it was started in 1977! I don't know of any other show centre near us that has a similar rec

Not two in one day, one year or even one decade. Yes horses die on the roads but no where near the sheer number that die on racetracks, that's not to mention the horses that don't make the grade: we've seen what happens to them, sent to bin end auctions and eventually to slaughter..

All the years Hickstead has been going; two deaths.

This isn't a go at you SG. But a seven year old and an eight year old both dying of a heart attack in one race doesn't make me feel slightly better, it makes me feel totally appalled and horrified in equal measures.

Makes me wonder if the horses are fit enough for the 3.5 mile course they were expected to run.

Do you feel the same about polo? I've seen more horses go wrong there than the times I've been racing (seen two take off and just not land properly point to pointing mind you). That racing death stat is much lower than I'd expected so thanks to whoever posted it. What I've always found strange though is that people aren't happy when a horse breaks a leg yet is attended to within minutes on a racecourse, but seemingly don't bat an eyelid when Dobbin at your average livery yard may have to wait 90mins or so for the same outcome. We all use horses for sport, and with that comes live stock and dead stock.

We only know about racing stats because they're released. Imagine if riding schools had to report every death, which do happen especially for those places with older ponies, or the local PC branches, hunts etc. Not sure even BE would be aware of something happening in the lorry park?

 

[AdorableAlice]

Do you feel the same about polo? I've seen more horses go wrong there than the times I've been racing (seen two take off and just not land properly point to pointing mind you). That racing death stat is much lower than I'd expected so thanks to whoever posted it. What I've always found strange though is that people aren't happy when a horse breaks a leg yet is attended to within minutes on a racecourse, but seemingly don't bat an eyelid when Dobbin at your average livery yard may have to wait 90mins or so for the same outcome. We all use horses for sport, and with that comes live stock and dead stock.

We only know about racing stats because they're released. Imagine if riding schools had to report every death, which do happen especially for those places with older ponies, or the local PC branches, hunts etc. Not sure even BE would be aware of something happening in the lorry park?

Well said. Racing in the UK is heavily (rightly so) governed and regulated and the authorities fund a lot of equine research. I enjoy NH racing, haven't got much interest in flat racing and I feel the breaking of yearlings and racing at barely 2 is abhorrent. No doubt someone will say research shows working youngsters strengthens the bones in TB's. Regardless, I am not changing my mind and maintain youngstock should be allowed to mature and not raced at 2yrs of age. The wastage level in racing is huge. For the tiny percentage of deaths on the track there are much bigger numbers of horses disposed of long before they see a racetrack. The rehoming groups are doing a fabulous job but they are only scratching the surface and it is heartening to see how well supported the ROR classes are now. However, a quick look at the likes of preloved and facebook shows endless TB's looking for a home, £500 to 1k. Now they may land on their feet with a knowledgeable home if they are very lucky but many won't and will face an uncertain future. Those are the horses that need our concern and intervention. Along with the poor creatures hidden away in sheds, staked out on busy roads, the bin end dealers etc.

Hopefully this weekend will not see what last weekend saw, but if there is an incident the horse concerned will have swift and appropriate veterinary attention immediately and will not suffer. The horse will have had several vet checks before it gets to the start. Everyone involved wants their horse to come home safe. Questioning how fit an elite racehorse is nothing but an insult to the trainer of Abuffolosoldier, watching the round of jumping and galloping he displayed was incredible. The sad ending could not have been forecast by anyone and was explained in full on national TV by Liam Kearns, one of the most respected vets in the UK.

 

[photo_jo]

If there was the same number of leisure horses dying as there are racehorses everyone would be up in arms and it'd get banned pretty quick I would imagine. But with the number of horses that die in racing its no where near comparable and it's a daft argument to put forward.

Our riding club has had two deaths that I know of since it was started in 1977! I don't know of any other show centre near us that has a similar rec

Not two in one day, one year or even one decade. Yes horses die on the roads but no where near the sheer number that die on racetracks, that's not to mention the horses that don't make the grade: we've seen what happens to them, sent to bin end auctions and eventually to slaughter..

All the years Hickstead has been going; two deaths.

But there are, as a journalist the number of people I wrote about who'd bought a warmblood that after going into work had 'gone wrong' was legion. They'd investigate, end up putting it down because it wouldn't stay sound and had gone out and bought another one, so absolutely the horse was dead because of the work it did but put down at the vets, so out of sight out of mind. Racing are up front and I'm not condoning the fatalities but you only have to think how many young horses that are imported as sport horses - where do they all go-they're not all in fields! Don't get me wrong another wrong doesn't make it right but we're all complicit in riding horses that don't stay sound - they prob would have done it we'd never ridden them

 

[AdorableAlice]

But there are, as a journalist the number of people I wrote about who'd bought a warmblood that after going into work had 'gone wrong' was legion. They'd investigate, end up putting it down because it wouldn't stay sound and gone and bought another one, so absolutely the horse was dead because of the work it did but put down at the vets so out of sight out of mind. Racing are up front and I'm not condoning the fatalities but you only have to think how many young horses that are imported as sport horses - where do they all go-they're not all in fields? Don't get me wrong another wrong doesn't make it right but we're all complicit in riding horses that don't stay sound - they prob would have done it we'd never ridden them

And the pts ones are the lucky ones, the others form the endless project horses for sale on the cheap sites, the companion only give aways and in the bin end dealer yards as has just been seen on a recent thread, with the horse being given the final mercy this week.