Child riding in dutch gag and standing martingale?!?

The more posts that I read here, the worse things sound.

BHS instructors sound like they are of a poor standard.

Then there are the My pony is Untrainable brigade, or it's the breed, or it's because its a pony.

The PC sounds irresponsible at best.

No way does appropriate training destroy spirit.

The truth is that people find any reason to justify this lack of a professional approach to children riding on unsafe uncontrollable mounts.

Little wonder that so many give up, or turn into nervous adult riders or worse heavy handed bullies.

True that there are thousands of excellent considerate riders out there, but if we addressed the issue of presenting suitably well trained ponies for children to ride on there would be so many more.

There is nothing clever about causing a child to have to manage a poorly trained pony. There is no enjoyment in that, for a child.
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Amen!
 
In an ideal world all riding schools would teach everyone to ride on the lunge until they could ride with independant hand, leg and seat aids however, in the majority of cases, the people that learn to ride at riding schools, do not want to be a rider, its a hobby, they are not prepared to stay on the lunge for long. Secondly, good lunge horses are few and far between and using the same horses for lunge lessons day in and day out soon cause lameness and uneveness problems, esp if they are being used for unbalanced novices.
Ponies can be strong with smaller children on. Personally I would rather have a stronger bit with a child being able to use softer aids than see a child in a snaffle hauling on the reins.
As regards to a standing martingale, fitted correctly, they do less harm than a running as the pressure is only on the nose rather than the mouth as with a running martingale.
All of our ponies are in a snaffle 99% of the time but at certain times of the year (ie spring)they might need a little extra.
 
Sounds to me like its not really the right pony for her if she has a prob stopping it, hence all the gadgets! :( Just my opinion tho ;)
 
I think that the jist of the thread is that small children put on ponies which need a really strong bit to stop them running off.

I agree that sometimes its more appropriate to use a strong bit, but relying on that to keep a child safe is a bit daft .

Surely when we talk of different bits, we are on a higher level of equitation.

The idea is to ride with lightness and softness, not to teach s child to fight with their pony and become heavy handed.
 
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Ditto that its bizzare and seems counterproductive to have a gag bit and martingale and whip !

And dont get me wrong I cant stand it when people pile on gadgets as a substitute for decent schooling (I know someone who rides regularly in a flash, martingale, gag bit and sometimes draw reins, and she wonders why is stomps around with a hollow back and head in the air, but thats another story...)
Ive been told by people riding mine that I should put a martingale on him, I say no - if you ride him properly he will go in an outline ! And a whip will never go near any of mine.

BUT if it must be I would rather see an effective gag in gentle hands than a child roughly hauling a ponies head around in a snaffle because its not working but they are told they must use it. I have actually witnesed this and its not a pretty sight to see a horses mouth cut up because of it.


As far as telling them, Dont blame the kid ! It will not have chosen the tack - its the parents !
And please make sure you have seen this child on that pony in the same combo again before wading in - it may simply have been unusuall circumstances and not the normal and you dont want to be upsetting the PC cliques when you are new. Its a very clicky place and can be full of nosey people who its likley that they have already picked this up and will not sit back and ignore it.

And please do not bash the instructors, at the end of they day they cant force pushy parents to change tack and buy different ponies for their children. They WILL advise if its wrong, but they cannot force every child ride in a snaffle if it means the pony could cart the child off and cause major damage/accidents.

Its for the parent to act on the fact that they have prehaps over-horsed or have an unsuitable pony for their child.
 
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I CAN TOP THIS!!

Try a very novice, first time owner, riding a year tops, riding a very heavy cob in a 3 ring water ford gag on bottom ring with a flash!
 
I've only just come to this thread and haven't read every post beyond the first few pages, but here's my tuppence worth. I know I will be repeating much of what's been said already.

First and most important, not everyone has the money, time or skill to acquire a perfectly schooled pony and keep it that way. I have spent many years with very little money and taking on the remedials and throwaways and rescues because that is what came my way. I ride in what they are comfortable in and my children ride in the same.

The obsession with snaffles that is something that incenses me. A jointed snaffle is NOT a mild bit. It has a vicious nutcracker action and is perhaps the most easy bit to abuse in the wrong hands. And all children have to learn to have the right hands. If a pony is more comfortable and responsive in something different, then that is what it should be in. Why did the conventional horse world pick on the jointed snaffle as the 'perfect' bit for all horses? It could just as easily have been a mullen mouth snaffle, or if you are going to talk about a perfectly responsive pony not needing gadgets, then you can go as far as the Parelli riders who ride in just a halter. There is nothing magic or special or uniquely 'the only right thing' about a snaffle, only convention.

I ride in endurance in a small way and my pony wears a three ring snaffle and a running martingale. He goes very well in a plain snaffle, but now and then he needs a bit of a check on it and if you are doing a lot of miles, it is easier on him to have a bit that he says, 'Ok, I'll come back to your hand' instantly instead of after a few strides and harder work. Most of the time he has almost no contact. The running martingale keeps his head tosses (typical Arab habit - and he's only part bred), from leaving the reins over his ears and that is the only reason it is there. Perhaps the child's standing martingale was there for a similar reason.

A standing martingale is fitted completely loose until the head goes up, so it really doesn't count as 'severe' tack.

Now I'm ducking back behind the parapet. Anyone joining me?
 
Me again!

This thread has developed somewhat from last night.
I do not agree with 'if you cant ride it in a snaffle you shouldnt be riding it' lines of thought.

Horses differ from one another, as do riders and its finding the balance between the two.

I would much rather see a child, who rides nicely with soft hands, take one pull of a ponies mouth to stop in a stronger bit than see saw on its mouth in a snaffle.

Im sure every parent out there would LOVE to find a snaffle mouthed, cavesson noseband, pony for their kids but in reality these ponies are very few and far between.

A snaffle, in bad hands can cause just as much damage as any other bit.
 
When my sister and I were little, she had a pony called Red. He was very very old and had been around the houses- you know you're pony is a real PC pony, when the ageing dressage judge leans out the car at the end of your test and tells you that she learnt to ride on your pony too...

He was 13.3hh and my sister 9 when she rode him. She was tiny short- her legs didn't go past the saddle flaps by a long shot- and stick thin. As a result, he was ridden in a pelham for everything (under tens can do PC dressage in any bit they like) and she carried a whip (bigger than her!). They had an amazing time together, won themselves out of almost everything and he was a happy and contented pony. They hunted, jumped XC and did all PC activities. In a snaffle, he would have hardly noticed she was there and without her stick she'd have had a hard time persuading him that she was kicking. It was used as a small tap down the shoulder, as he was a lazy old soul!!

He gave her so much confidence, and we still remember him very fondly. When you loan, you can't be picky about what ponies you have, especially when they're as safe and sweet as Red was... Please don't hoik up your judgey-pants when you don't know the child or pony very well...
 
alligator40 said:
I could tack up and ride in a DB at 7 yrs old...and knew what each rein did.
It wasn't there because i couldn't ride, it was there because i could.
I was taught correctly.
I have also ridden ponies wearing all sorts of contraptions..gags..not the poncy continental useless types either, a cheltenham..kineton nosebands, pelhams, kimblewicks..
it has jack diddley to do with lack of schooling..9 times out of 10 REAL Comp ponies are far more pumped up than their jockeys..it is really no contest..and i would rather put something stronger in a ponies mouth to ensure a safe combo..than the alternative.

IMO those who complain., dont or haven't competed seriously...being an armchair critic is always comfortable. ;)
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*Like*
 
I'd rather the kid was safe. Maybe at home she rides in the bit of perfection (a snaffle) but her Mum would rather she was safe at PC... I know that my DWB could (In his day) do everything in a snaffle but I put him in a dutch gag and martingale across country... mainly for brakes (and I carried a whip and wore spurs cos he could be lazy.. There seems to be some kind of thinking that a horse that can be strong can't be lazy and that schooling can overcome a horse's personality. Now I've been around horses all my life, and know I can school a horse well, but Schooling the personality out of a native, is impossible...

BnBX
 
I would have thought that a standing martingale (provided it was not fitted too tight) was milder than a running martingale as it only comes into play when the horse's head goes up beyond that point (and then through the noseband) rather than interfering with the rein contact most of the time. One of the RS horses I know goes in a running or a standing, depending on how he's been going and who's riding- with a novicy rider he tends to be happier with it as a standing. For hacks he will also have a grass rein on as he's a greedy boy and would be quite capable of pulling an inexperienced rider off balance in search of grass.

Equally, using the gag bit means that she doesn't have to haul (bad habit) to get a response, but can use a correct, light aid. I'd imagine she's a bit small and light for the pony, so probably needs a stick to give him an aid somewhere below the saddle flaps...
 
I teach PC (infact I've been there all day today, and will be tomorrow. Currently in bed shattered! ;) ) I tend to get the 11-13 yr olds who are just coming up to seniors, but sometimes get slightly younger groups.

I have many a time spent a good half an hour at the the beginning of a camp/ralley holding down an incredibly over excited pony! Parents telling me every time I walk past "he's so quiet at home..... he's never like this", child sat frozen sometimes nearly in tears. I totally believe them. But the excitement of said pony suddenly turning up to a huge party of 30 + horses, child bag of nerves and excitement sends even the sweetest of ponies crackers!!! Child is used to their sweet, kick along pony, not the little nutter than is barely keeping 2 feet on the floor.

But give it half an hour, pony usually settles down and starts behaving and all is well.

At camp I quite often have ponies very bitted up for the 1st day. Child often asks me if that's ok (we always flat the 1st ride) and I say yes. Once pony has calmed down by 2nd day, they're back in snaffles and all is well.

So it may be they thought the pony may find the situation very very exciting and it didn't (as it happened).

It is also common for some kids to be a bit over horsed on an older siblings pony. As long as there is some degree of control i have no problem with that. I always feel sorry for outgrown ponies that are continually sold on (but that is life I'm afraid).
 
alligator40 said:
IMO those who complain., dont or haven't competed seriously...being an armchair critic is always comfortable. ;)
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I hope this isn't aimed as me as the OP :o
as I have already said I have been that child with the naughty pony at camp, and the teenager with the naughty horse and now the senior with the still naughty horse (he really should have grown up by now he's 12!!). I have never had a push button pony, yet I have never gagged and gadgeted my horses up to the eye balls (it has been suggested, and yes I also mentioned we tried spurs and draw reins - not for long) my confidence swings in roundabouts yet I have amazing stickability, and am grateful for what my horses have taught me. I just wanted other peoples views :o
 
*I think* that the gist of this post is that in the perfect world we would all like to be perfect riders with perfectly suitable horses/ponys but unfortunately this doesn't happen! Wouldn't it be far better to ride in whatever the horse was happiest and most comfortable wearing then a snaffle where the horse could be uncontrollable and dangerous? I have schooled many difficult horses and love to have them in the most simplest tack but sometimes this doesn't work! Some horses will allways need a martingale to jump and some may not! I think we should judge the horses needs on an individual basis and not to just conform to what others feel has to be right.
 
AndySpooner said:
Very interesting post this, and one that is probably discussing issues which are vitality important to the future of horse riding, because these young riders are the future.

To me, what many of the replies highlight, are the simply appalling attitudes to training ponies and children to ride properly.

Anyone who feels that strong bits and other gadgets are truly needed to control a pony and then put a child on board, are just carrying on with the culture of poorly trained horses and riders in this country.

If people cannot take the time to train a pony so that it doesn't need this rubbish, do equestrianism a favour and find another hobby for your child.

People keep talking about children having to be strong to control these ponies, why? If the pony is light and responsive, no child needs to be hauling on the reins, and as for spurs and whips, lunacy.

It doesn't matter what you as an adult do, its too late for the closed minds that do what they've always done, and cannot ride for toffee, but bringing children on properly is so important, both for them, horses and the industry.
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What you need to consider is that there are many children riding who have non-horsey parents or parents too big/heavy to ride their childs pony to keep it well behaved.

I've taught for decades - both Riding School and privately. I only had a few ponies in the school that needed something stronger than a snaffle - but I had the use of my young more experienced helpers to work the ponies. Non of our ponies were slugs either -as I feel to learn to ride correctly the pony needs to move forward off the leg obediently - can't bear to see kids kicking furiously to get the pony to move. Once they have learned to ride well then they can move on to more complex ponies.

I've also taught at Pony Club for decades and many people don't want to be constantly buying a bigger pony to keep pace with the riders ability. Some have had lead rein ponies that are great when led and little s***s when ridden off the lead. A Pelham or Kimblewick generally solves the control problem. Then as the riders grows longer legs, more confidence and is stronger many can be changed back to a snaffle.

What we also have to realise is that not always are they being put into stronger bits. The bits are DIFFERENT in their action - not necessarily stronger.

A snaffle is infact quite a strong bit, the joint makes it so. I've had riders - really experienced event in a KK Training as in anything jointed the pony went into the fences like a bullet, jumped flat and far too fast. The transformation was amazing - just a different shaped bit.

With Young children SAFETY is the most important consideration.
 
Very interesting thread :) I ride my daughters pony now! we've had him 10 years and he's a 12.3hh NF called Turbo ( the only name the RS could think of that suited it! ) he was used at the riding school where she learnt and was the only one that could ride him quietly.

He was ridden in, and still is, a three ring gag and standing martingale; he's not naughty, just gets very very excited; you can walk him on the buckle all day, but as soon as you want to do something more exciting he explodes! ( she did do gymkhana on him ) You don't have to pull him, just let him run out of steam, a big hill usually helps lol.

But seriously, I just think there are so many different personalities in horses that no matter how much you school them and the child you're going to get ones that need that extra bit ( no pun intended ) My pony Ben, is so laid back that you need a rocket up his bum to get him going; but ride him alongside an ex racer and he turns into a looney! ( much fun though )
 
Evelyn said:
What you need to consider is that there are many children riding who have non-horsey parents or parents too big/heavy to ride their childs pony to keep it well behaved.

I've also taught at Pony Club for decades and many people don't want to be constantly buying a bigger pony to keep pace with the riders ability. Some have had lead rein ponies that are great when led and little s***s when ridden off the lead. A Pelham or Kimblewick generally solves the control problem. Then as the riders grows longer legs, more confidence and is stronger many can be changed back to a snaffle.

What we also have to realise is that not always are they being put into stronger bits. The bits are DIFFERENT in their action - not necessarily stronger.

A snaffle is infact quite a strong bit, the joint makes it so. I've had riders - really experienced event in a KK Training as in anything jointed the pony went into the fences like a bullet, jumped flat and far too fast. The transformation was amazing - just a different shaped bit.

With Young children SAFETY is the most important consideration.
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I absolutely agree with this. An example of the second paragraph above was my son on his first pony. They first got together when my son was three and the pony was eight. He was a beautifully schooled little 12hh Dartmoor, but after five years on the leading rein because my son's physical problems meant he could not ride independently sooner, the pony had forgotten that it was ok to go along without a human at his head. The result was mayhem. He even behaved so badly at an indoor Pony Club rally that he almost got asked to leave.

The solution I used was drastic: this pony was going home with my small son at speed along roads: it couldn't keep happening and we didn't have a school to sort it out in. I put a pelham (vulcanite) with the rein on the curb only, a grackle noseband :eek:, and grass reins on him. With that horrible combination, my son could stop when the pony whipped round to go home, get himself sorted out, turn the pony back round and carry on safely. Gradually over the next few months, most of the gadgets came off. We still kept the pelham, but with roundings, but that was mainly because my son, again due to his physical problems was never able to ride without stirrups to develop an adequate seat and ride truly correctly. But he was safe and the pony didn't pull against his bridle and they rode happily together. He's now back home for TLC after some years away and my son is 19 (tomorrow). The pony is back on the leading rein again for my son's three year old step daughter. I hope he will still be here when she comes off the leading rein: he's 23 now.
 
Levade said:
I would never buy a pony that needed a dutch gag and standing martingale for my child :confused: So it seems odd that this situation arose in the first place! But I suppose if this pony is dangerous to ride without them, there's really not much they can do! Still seems a shame though.
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Well we might not know the whole story here

who knows the circumstances - maybe kids pony was ill but was devastated to not go to the rally so mum let her take older siblings pony just over bitted a littlebit to make sure she would be safe , a dales is a lot of pony if it wanted to take advantage of a 19 year old never mind a 9 year old

I for one would rather have a horse in a gag ridden well than a sulking child for a week

I also doubt that said child even noticed what tack pony was in and just got on and rode.
 
Ladylina83 said:
Well we might not know the whole story here

who knows the circumstances - maybe kids pony was ill but was devastated to not go to the rally so mum let her take older siblings pony just over bitted a littlebit to make sure she would be safe , a dales is a lot of pony if it wanted to take advantage of a 19 year old never mind a 9 year old

I for one would rather have a horse in a gag ridden well than a sulking child for a week

I also doubt that said child even noticed what tack pony was in and just got on and rode.
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Very true however, I would want to know that the child knew what the tack did before she rode in it, as I think thats important education, not to necessarily change the way they ride if they are quiet, but for them to use it appropriately...
 
My daughter's old pony was ridden ion a dutch gag on the second ring. This was because she was a very strong forward going little mare (I couldnt hold her myself infront of a jump!) and i felt a light pull with a stronger bit better than constant hauling on her mouth in a snaffle.
At first i swapped between a snaffle for hacking and gag for fast/jumping but my daughter was so scared of hurting the pony she had the most gentle hands ever so it worked really well.

I did however once go to a riding school and watched a kids beginner lesson and was not too comfortable with the fact every one of the 10 ponies used had a dutch gag in?
 
Agree with some of this thread, but not all of it.

I was hideously overhorse with my 1st pony (a typically thelwell dartmoor!). He bolted, a lot. We had a french link snaffle. I learnt a lot from that pony, mostly how to sit to bolts, how to calm a horse with other methods, how to fall off nicely... And we also used to jump up to 3ft.

I've never gone stronger than a french link since, bar Dorey's showing Pelham. Which could be bright pink and sparkle for all Dorey cares, she likes it because she knows it means PARTY TIME!!!

I've learnt a valuable lesson by not having strong bits. Pulling on the mouth of a 500kg animal won't stop it running. It makes it lock it's neck and run faster.

Thus I've been able to ride a couple of horses that are bolters and have them really rather laid back.

Perhaps if parents weren't so worried about their little darlings they would stick them on dangerous ponies, let them bounce a few times and have them learn how to ride nicely.

My first pony, bless him, ended up going beautifully in his french link (unless my sister rode... She has also now got the lightest hands I've ever seen!) and we had to sell him back to the riding school we bought him from.
Couldn't even tell you what his latest contraption is. Certainly more cow on his head than horse. Sad really. He is an amazing pony for a gutsy rider but he's being ruined by little brats no one wants to fall off :(
 
becca_norrey said:
Very true however, I would want to know that the child knew what the tack did before she rode in it, as I think thats important education, not to necessarily change the way they ride if they are quiet, but for them to use it appropriately...
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Yes well in an ideal world this would be the case however there are many mums to whom their children are just jockeys for showponies and also some children who don't even know how to take a bridle apart ( I know one 13 year old - she also always knows best) ... unfortunately you're not going to change the world ! I am not really sure how a child would actully USE a standing martingale anyway they are pretty hard to interfear with once fitted ! The little girl you are outraged by seems to be doing a pretty good job - plenty of adults also ride in tack they do not understand ie a grackle because it looks good show jumping.

PS Shock horror I hunt in a happy mouth gag on the bottom ring with a martingale and I carry a stick !!! Sticks are not just used for speed, they are great for opening and closing gates and flashing into sight at a spooky fence

PPS OP , have you ever ridden a shetland :-)
 
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Evelyn said:
As a PC instructor & Examiner I'd rather see a pony in gear that allows it's rider to maintain control so they can enjoy the pony.
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Oh thank god! Someone talking sense! Seriously, some of these youngsters are extremely good riders - far better than a whole load of adults I know! If the kid is safer and the pony is at less risk of parting company and then putting itself at risk of "runaway injury" then in my book any bit goes.

As for showjumping - some of these ponies have to travel at seriously high speeds in the jump off and if you don't have the necessary brakes and steering YOU WILL NOT WIN! Simples! Also, having to brake, turn and kick on all within microseconds with sometimes necessitate the need for a serious bit and spurs!

Now, if the pony is just a little sh@t and is peeing off with little tommy out on a ride then that is a whole different story and should be dealt with by schooling, schooling, schooling and loads of lessons in between!

Go and look at the bits that top adult riders use in eventing and show jumping and you will see that it is "spot the snaffle" - they are pretty few and far between - you cannot tell me that these horses are not highly schooled and trained - they just need to be far more responsive to the tiniest of aids - not being hauled around in a snaffle with their tongue hanging out the side.

Horses for courses and bits too. My daughter is learning to ride her 3yo Welsh A in a fulmer snaffle - when she starts going faster off the leadrein - if the pony looks like he is likely to get fizzy he WILL go in a stronger bit until she has the confidence and strength to cope.

I can seriously only imagine that those of you who are stating rediculous comments about less means more dont have kids that ride or if you do, the pony that they ride is half dead! Not all ponies are ancient old plods and those that are, were once youngsters that needed some caution to be used when ridden.
 
Ladylina83 said:
Yes well in an ideal world this would be the case however there are many mums to whom their children are just jockeys for showponies and also some children who don't even know how to take a bridle apart ( I know one 13 year old - she also always knows best) ... unfortunately you're not going to change the world ! I am not really sure how a child would actully USE a standing martingale anyway they are pretty hard to interfear with once fitted ! The little girl you are outraged by seems to be doing a pretty good job - plenty of adults also ride in tack they do not understand ie a grackle because it looks good show jumping.

PS Shock horror I hunt in a happy mouth gag on the bottom ring with a martingale and I carry a stick !!! Sticks are not just used for speed, they are great for opening and closing gates and flashing into sight at a spooky fence
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Thats fine IMO u understand the tack etc. hunting and jumping/ riding outdoors if u have no breaks and understand fine - not everyones choice but as you've said, I can't change the world I understand you don't use a stick for speed, but most children do.... :)

PPS OP , have you ever ridden a shetland :-)
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yep I have ridden a shetland, been bucked of it numerous times and as a child had the time of my life on it, always in a snaffle as it put its head between its legs and i was screamed at to sit up as we disappeared over the hill!!

I'm not outraged at this child, I just wanted to see other peoples views, and reasons as to why nobody else watching questionned it publicly, as i have said I wasn't going to cause an argument there, and didn't want to here, just wanted the bigger picture and other peoples thoughts, so that I could understand maybe why.
 
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