Chris Dyson/Sovereign Horses Ponies

paddy555 said:
I don't see a problem with this. If you go to a dealer's yard it is under their conditions, they control what you see, how the horse is dealt with etc. You have no idea if it is buted. You ride under their conditions and they can omit (carefully avoid) whatever they choose. They you get it home and, as we have seen from some posts on here, 3 days later and it is a dragon breathing lunatic that won't go down the lane and kicks the shit out of people in it's box.

I'm not sure that at a viewing at a dealer's yard you are going to know if you really like the horse, if you like it because it looks nice, you feel sorry for it or for any other reason. Just because you like a horse the first time you see it probably based on it's carefully written description which shows it as being perfect for you it doesn't mean that you are still going to like it after day 5.

Much better to have it home for a week, vet at your leisure with your own vet and ride it alone, in company and whatever else concerns you. Your instructor can ride it and give you a lesson. I think it takes long time as in months to gel with a new horse and it is up to the rider to be the one trying to get on with the horse.


sorry what does this mean?
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She Who Must Not Be Named = Lynn Robertson (search on Broadhill Stables) thread for more details.
 
honetpot said:
If you have ever sold a horse or even loaned one out their are people who over estimated their riding skill, treat it as a day trip, and I would never allow the anyone who in not buying the horse to ride it, because I need to know they are competent and usually the friend or family member IME is out to prove how good they are a better rider or know more.
If you are selling as a business if someone screws up your horse, and its is surprising how many people to not ride with tact, you are have a horse that is wary every time someone new gets on it, and then there is a liability risk if someone injures themselves and they want to claim on your insurance.
I have only once let someone take one on trial, through a friend, and wouldn't take the risk again.
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I don't really get the relevance of this because of course people who come to try out horses may be poor riders, but if the horse is sent out on a 7 day trial to someone he has never met before this is at least as likely to happen and not only may they be overestimating their ability and / or riding with no tact, but on top of that, any number of such riders could be getting on with whatever tack they have to hand and whatever weight they might be. The horse can also be fed inappropriately, turned out with unsuitable fencing and companions or not turned out at all or any number of undesirable management issues. Also, quite a few are youngsters recently shipped from Ireland. This dealer preferentially chooses to send out horses unseen by the buyers and the buyers ability is completely unknown to him.

paddy555 said:
Much better to have it home for a week, vet at your leisure with your own vet and ride it alone, in company and whatever else concerns you. Your instructor can ride it and give you a lesson. I think it takes long time as in months to gel with a new horse and it is up to the rider to be the one trying to get on with the horse.
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This sounds great in theory, but several horses I viewed could be rejected very quickly. Some were lame, one decked me within 3 seconds, one was tricky for the pro rider, one very thin and lethargic, one with fetlocks with too much movement, one refused to jump a x pole, one the pro wouldn't get on it until it was lunged first. It's already disappointing finding out that the horse is unsuitable after a 3 hour car journey but the cost of transporting multiple unsuitable horses to and from my home and the disruption / infection risk to the existing residents would be far too much for me. At one yard there was a horse looking unwell with a snotty nose, coughing and sneezing, not isolated from the other horses.

I also had problems getting back 2 deposits, one the horse was likely sold to someone else and the dealer just kept my deposit despite a ccj, the next one the horse failed the vet and I started down the mcol process which did result in her coughing up in the end. So based on my own experience I'd never trust a dealer to return my money if the horse was unsuitable. Some reports indicate that Lynn (Broadhill stables) has retained ~£700,000.
 
nutjob said:
This sounds great in theory, but several horses I viewed could be rejected very quickly. Some were lame, one decked me within 3 seconds, one was tricky for the pro rider, one very thin and lethargic, one with fetlocks with too much movement, one refused to jump a x pole, one the pro wouldn't get on it until it was lunged first. It's already disappointing finding out that the horse is unsuitable after a 3 hour car journey but the cost of transporting multiple unsuitable horses to and from my home and the disruption / infection risk to the existing residents would be far too much for me. At one yard there was a horse looking unwell with a snotty nose, coughing and sneezing, not isolated from the other horses.

I also had problems getting back 2 deposits, one the horse was likely sold to someone else and the dealer just kept my deposit despite a ccj, the next one the horse failed the vet and I started down the mcol process which did result in her coughing up in the end. So based on my own experience I'd never trust a dealer to return my money if the horse was unsuitable. Some reports indicate that Lynn (Broadhill stables) has retained ~£700,000.
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I don't know this chap. Are there any reviews suggesting he is sending out lame horses, ones that cannot be ridden etc. There are several videos on his site showing what to my mind are "fat" horses so I don't think thin and lethargic would apply. Are there reviews he won't repay on return.
One view could be for him that he weeds out timewasters turning up for little more than a ride. If one was going to pay to bring the horse home (and I presume he has conditions re insurance etc) then you would be pretty serious about the horse. It will be interesting to see how many have actually had problems with him.
 
paddy555 said:
I don't know this chap. Are there any reviews suggesting he is sending out lame horses, ones that cannot be ridden etc. There are several videos on his site showing what to my mind are "fat" horses so I don't think thin and lethargic would apply. Are there reviews he won't repay on return.
One view could be for him that he weeds out timewasters turning up for little more than a ride. If one was going to pay to bring the horse home (and I presume he has conditions re insurance etc) then you would be pretty serious about the horse. It will be interesting to see how many have actually had problems with him.
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I have no personal experience of this dealer so I don't know how easy it is to get your money back.

My experience is with several other dealers, sales liverys and some private sellers, this has in general been poor. None of sellers of the multiple unsuitable horses I viewed had any negative reviews that could be easily found with google or multiple dodgy dealer fb pages where I'm a member. The one who stole my deposit ended up in jail and his side kick had to declare bankrupcy after a large court case went against him. Multiple people contacted me after I posted my experience with tales of missold horses, no refunds, threats and intimidation. Now I'm a bit sceptical about whether the absence of bad reviews means that a person is honest. A common tactic is to offer a partial refund if the person removes all social media comments, a lot of people accept this due to the limitations of the county court system for actually getting your money back.

So this dealer may well be totally honest and genuine, ofter a prompt and full refund if the horse is unsuitable. My comments are on dealers that I have had personal experience with.

I would say however that distance selling regulations allow you 14 days to reject goods for any reason what so ever, so trying to convince customers to accept a 7 day trial period is not in line with your legal rights as a consumer and is a bit disingenuous. Worrying that the dealer either doesn't know the law as it applies to his own business or is attempting to circumvent it.
 
nutjob said:
I have no personal experience of this dealer so I don't know how easy it is to get your money back.

My experience is with several other dealers, sales liverys and some private sellers, this has in general been poor. None of sellers of the multiple unsuitable horses I viewed had any negative reviews that could be easily found with google or multiple dodgy dealer fb pages where I'm a member. The one who stole my deposit ended up in jail and his side kick had to declare bankrupcy after a large court case went against him. Multiple people contacted me after I posted my experience with tales of missold horses, no refunds, threats and intimidation. Now I'm a bit sceptical about whether the absence of bad reviews means that a person is honest. A common tactic is to offer a partial refund if the person removes all social media comments, a lot of people accept this due to the limitations of the county court system for actually getting your money back.

So this dealer may well be totally honest and genuine, ofter a prompt and full refund if the horse is unsuitable. My comments are on dealers that I have had personal experience with.

I would say however that distance selling regulations allow you 14 days to reject goods for any reason what so ever, so trying to convince customers to accept a 7 day trial period is not in line with your legal rights as a consumer and is a bit disingenuous. Worrying that the dealer either doesn't know the law as it applies to his own business or is attempting to circumvent it.
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I'm sorry you have had such bad experiences. I was merely commenting about this dealer as that was the one detailed in the thread title.

You may have 14 days but there are an awful lot of posts on here from people who have been unsuccessful in returning horses to dealers and have had to take legal action even if that has been successful. I'm not sure this one is attempting to circumvent 14 days just that his method of selling horses is to send them on a 7 day trial.

I have never bought from a dealer, all my horses have come from private sales and I have known their background plus if I buy a horse it is always going to be kept for it's life never sold on or returned. I have been very lucky but I am also very flexible and find a way to get on with any horse.
 
just curious, I am not looking for another horse. Whilst with dealers there is a risk to the buyer what about a dealer sending a horse on a 7 day trial. It doesn't take 7 days to turn a good horse into a physical or nervous wreck so if you return in 7 days you could be returning a decent horse now a total wreck. . Does he do any checking about the buyer/home/yard/their experience etc. If his FB page is correct (and I have no idea if it is) he only has a few horses and there appears to be a lot of interest in them. Does he whittle prospective buyers down, do you have to provide details of the future home etc etc before having one on trial.
 
He probably buys them cheap enough that the odd one being messed up doesn't matter. I was surprised a different dealer here took one back lame/failed vet after a 2 week trial no quibble. But he'd probably made at least 5k on the deal (4yo trad cob type)
 
I think CD’s model works essentially because he has good contacts, knows what he’s doing with the horses he buys and he’s quite discriminating with who he sells to. He’s got a good eye, he doesn’t buy sh*t in the first place and he generally deals with nice young cobs with steady temperaments. His job then is just to assess them, brush up any schooling and sell them to someone who isn’t a moron. 90% of the time there isn’t an awful lot to go wrong to give him a bad rep.

Of course anyone can go to Ireland and buy a 4yo straight out the field and save yourself £5k if you know what to look for but he’s doing the legwork and that’s how he makes his money.
 
paddy555 said:
You may have 14 days but there are an awful lot of posts on here from people who have been unsuccessful in returning horses to dealers and have had to take legal action even if that has been successful. I'm not sure this one is attempting to circumvent 14 days just that his method of selling horses is to send them on a 7 day trial.
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Yes, this exactly, very common. Once the dealer has your money they are very reluctant to give it back, not this dealer specifically but dealers in general. This is either if you choose to buy unseen or the dealer encourages you to take a horse on trial rather than providing viewing facilities. In my experience, the dealer moved the money immediately on receipt to a third party account so his account was always at a balance of zero. At the time, my bank couldn't do a charge back unless the person had money in their account. The ccj system is no good for self employed and it's not uncommon to find that the person has transferred any assets into someone else's name so they have nothing which can be seized.

I believe the rules have changed and some of the Broadhill victims got their money back from the dealers bank as they had not actually been sent a horse at all so it becomes more clear cut that it's not a missold horse dispute, it's a fraud/theft. It's always going to be a risk sending money to a total stranger and especially if it's a 5 figure sum which is a lot for most people to lose. After my bad experiences when I did buy a horse I drove up with the trailer and only did the bank transfer when the horse was led out, and was the same horse I'd tried and had vetted. The money cleared in a couple of minutes and he was loaded on and we left.

paddy555 said:
just curious, I am not looking for another horse. Whilst with dealers there is a risk to the buyer what about a dealer sending a horse on a 7 day trial. It doesn't take 7 days to turn a good horse into a physical or nervous wreck so if you return in 7 days you could be returning a decent horse now a total wreck. . Does he do any checking about the buyer/home/yard/their experience etc. If his FB page is correct (and I have no idea if it is) he only has a few horses and there appears to be a lot of interest in them. Does he whittle prospective buyers down, do you have to provide details of the future home etc etc before having one on trial.
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Some of the horses from Broadhill had been back and forward 5 times or more. Probably why some were so nervous and difficult to handle / ride, a truely awful experience for many of the horses involved. The dealer then just shipped them out to another customer sight unseen and collected the money again.

CD does get some horses returned and these appear to be sold as trade horses at a reduced price, no viewing, no trial, no vetting, no refunds. They don't seem to go back and forward to private buyers. He does occasionally post rules for buyers but you'd have to scroll through a huge no. of fb posts as they're not pinned. One of the things that dealers (again not this one specifically) do to drum up interest in horses is get their mates to comment about how amazing the horse looks, but these people may not be genuine buyers.
 
I follow his page and the horses he gets in are mostly cob types , not many traditional cobs mainly less feather types and they seem to go quite quickly and not many seem to come back. He also seems pretty good refunding but I think the catch is you pay £250 deposit which you don’t get back if you return the horse but do if you purchase … the types he has are in demand as they are not going to be world beaters just ordinary riding club types which many people want..
 
When I was selling I was going to send my horse on sales livery. I found CD very easy and up front when I enquired, and same when I was trying to find a horse for a friend. They were above budget but he was lovely and honest about what he had in that would be in budget, I told him what she needed and he was upfront and said he didn’t think they’d suit. I have a lot of time for a dealer who would turn down a quick/easy sale for everyone’s sanity! I also understand why he takes deposits as selling one horse last year was EXHAUSTING in a way I’ve never experienced before.

I would have probably got a lot more money for him but found the perfect home. I did two failed trials after being brutally honest. The first time he came back he’s Bonny self. The second time I was glad I hopped on before his now new home came to visit against medical advice (for me) as he’d clearly been ridden and upset by them, but settled lovely once he realised I wasn’t going to swing off his jaw. But I wouldn’t buy a horse from someone who just bounces them from trial to trial. As I think it can really upset horses and you don’t know what goes on. My second buyer never answered me after I enquired if they’d rode him and what had happened. They sent him back on very short notice, and he was unsettled by the whole thing. I think any horse bounced between so many people in such a short time is going to get some issues.
 
4Hoofed said:
I also understand why he takes deposits
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splashgirl45 said:
He also seems pretty good refunding but I think the catch is you pay £250 deposit which you don’t get back if you return the horse but do if you purchase
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If a dealer is retaining any amount of money for a horse sold unseen this is not legal whether it's called a deposit / admin fee or whatever. They are supposed, in law, to return ALL your money if you return the goods, even an animal. If you notify them within 14 days you don't even need a reason.
 
nutjob said:
If a dealer is retaining any amount of money for a horse sold unseen this is not legal whether it's called a deposit / admin fee or whatever. They are supposed, in law, to return ALL your money if you return the goods, even an animal. If you notify them within 14 days you don't even need a reason.
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Hmmm well I don’t know about him not returning deposits tbh as never got that far in the process with him, I just said I think him requesting a deposit is reasonable. Whether that’s for viewing or trial. I took a 20% deposit for my horse to go on trial so a lot more then £250.

But at the end of the day someone’s taking my horse where I can’t control what happens. If he failed and came back injured or god forbid mismanaged and died I wasn’t just going to hope they paid his price or vet costs. 🤷‍♀️ I get the seller point of view my lad came back both times for something I’d made abundantly clear in his add, written communication, and at viewing. I just think they didn’t believe me. It wasted 3 months of my time and money between 2 potential buyers. A horse can be ruined in 2 weeks to a month. I also get the appeal of making people put their money where their mouth is when booking viewings etc as I defo had some enquiries who just wanted to come have a hack. 🙄 in my eyes deposits are refundable within reason (horse isn’t as described, fails vetting etc). But I have kept deposit in the past when they pulled out of the sale of my filly for issues on their end. And they didn’t ask for it back either.
 
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