Classical training video? Opinions?

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LMR

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This demo was advertised near to me, I didn't attend but have just seen this video. I can;t quite see how this is classical riding. The horse doesn't look connected to me and I've been trying to understand the differences between classical riding and modern riding.

Have I missed something?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPj-4RYM-Zw
 
Well, it's certainly more what people seem to call "classical school" than "German competitive school". I'm generally not in the habit of commenting on other people's riding (especially if they don't post themselves) but it's not the best I've seen but certainly not the worst either. Riding in one school or another doesn't necessarily make you "bad" or "good" and there are good and bad riders - and the whole spectrum in between - in every school.

What did you think you would see differently other than the style of horse and riding?
 
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I always thought that classical you had to have you seat aligned from heel to hip and using your core.(hope this makes sense). I didn't want to comment on the riding as don't want to criticise the man riding. But in my opinion the horse doesn't seem ready for the work he is doing. Just doesn't seem connected to me, sorry I can't go into more detail but can;t think how to describe what I see.

For me riding i've always strived to get a connection from hind leg to seat to hand. In this video the horse doesn't seem to be carrying himself in balance

TarrSteps said:
Well, it's certainly more what people seem to call "classical school" than "German competitive school". I'm generally not in the habit of commenting on other people's riding (especially if they don't post themselves) but it's not the best I've seen but certainly not the worst either. Riding in one school or another doesn't necessarily make you "bad" or "good" and there are good and bad riders - and the whole spectrum in between - in every school.

What did you think you would see differently other than the style of horse and riding?
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It's a very short piece of video and impossible to draw conclusions from IMHO. There are many different interpretations of classical riding and I guess this is his
 
I know that rider roger he has been doing classical riding for many years. Him and his wife Eleanor featured a lot in Sylvia Loch , the classical rider book she has. They trained lots in Germany, Spain & Portugal.

I remember the first time I arrived on his yard and he dragged out a cob for me to ride, I thought Pffftttt how is that going to teach me dressage.. He got on it and started to passage and changes etc and my jaw hit the deck like a ton of bricks. He literally could train anything to a high level of dressage , I was amazed by him, from cobs to shire horses.

Very talented horseman and must be at least late 60's . So has been riding dressage before I was born.

Lovely bloke and fab teacher, I was gutted when him and his wife left the area, must be over 10 years ago now. I'm glad to see he is still riding and teaching.

I can assure you he could teach a lot of people on this forum a thing or two.

He doesn't used fancy warmbloods or even Spanish horses, just bog standard horses you would not even look twice at.

His wife does have a lovely (or did years ago) lustano but apart from that, just normal horses.
 
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I thought the horse looked weak behind - his hindquarters are considerably less developed than the shoulder. I expect to see classically trained horses with big bums, sorry!!
 
So what WOULD you all expect to see if you went to see a 'Classical' exhibition?

Leaving aside the video, which I'm not convinced is completely representational, especially given that we have no background on the horse etc., as I said, I don't think you can confuse style with calibre. In any given school there will be a range and to say that one school is defined by the horse going well, and others by the horse going less well is not realistic. Things like 'connection' are basic considerations in all riding, not anything 'Classical'.

Classical riding seems to be divided into to themes now, anyway. One takes Iberian style horses - similar to traditional haute ecole horses of the past, and rides them in the traditional way of trainers like Baucher, Fillis (gross simplification, I know) and the SRS. The other is to take horses not in that traditional mode and train them using similar principles. Some people do both. Most people are buying the latter. But, frankly, for most students it's really just about good riding, not about producing a horse with a correct levade.
 
Not knowing the background in this horse, its not really fair to judge, is it?

In terms of how the horse "should" look, though, sadly I think we see so many stonking big warmbloods, held in at the front, that has become what the eye sees as the norm, whereas actually in "classical" terms, for example some collected movements in particular are ultimately achieved with loops in the reins. Oh and don't get me started on the legs in trot not showing diagonal pairs nowadays :(
 
Daytona said:
I can assure you he could teach a lot of people on this forum a thing or two.

He doesn't used fancy warmbloods or even Spanish horses, just bog standard horses you would not even look twice at.

His wife does have a lovely (or did years ago) lustano but apart from that, just normal horses.
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Quite so. Roger and Eleanor taught me to ride in the 1980s, when they ran the Grove Riding Centre near Aberdeen. They were both brilliant teachers, and Roger was very funny. He is a real horseman, but didn't start riding until he was an adult. He was a show jumper, then got into dressage when he lived in Germany.

Back in the day, he and Eleanor had his 'n' her Bavarian warmbloods, but then moved on to Spanish horses. I heard Grove had closed and always wondered what happened to them, so am really pleased he is still teaching.
 
I was trying not to judge but I assume as this was a video advertising Rogers classical way he has trained this horse for a while. I agree with the big moving warmbloods but to me this horse is not coming from behind and doesn't look strong enough to be doing lateral work. In the opening sequence he is also behind the vertical I thought this was a no no for classical. I myself try to work along the classical lines and was looking for videos to learn from. However this does seem to confuse me which is why I posted.
Kelpie said:
Not knowing the background in this horse, its not really fair to judge, is it?

In terms of how the horse "should" look, though, sadly I think we see so many stonking big warmbloods, held in at the front, that has become what the eye sees as the norm, whereas actually in "classical" terms, for example some collected movements in particular are ultimately achieved with loops in the reins. Oh and don't get me started on the legs in trot not showing diagonal pairs nowadays :(
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It is not what I would expect, no comments on the video but in my mind the classical style is demonstrated by the Spanish riding School.
 
wren123 said:
It is not what I would expect, no comments on the video but in my mind the classical style is demonstrated by the Spanish riding School.
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But that's a bit like saying eventing is demonstrated by Mark Todd, WFP and Tina Cook. Or competitive dressage by Charlotte and Carl and Klaus Balkenhol. Or jumping by Ben Maher and Eric Lamaze. Of course all those people are fantastic representatives of their disciplines but they are pinnacles, not the sort of standard you're going to see at your local RC. Nor, frankly, is it the sort of standard you'd expect from even a very good local instructor.
 
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All good points TarrSteps:)
I was just saying from my experience, when I was riding and competing 30 years ago that was the only Classical style that I had heard of!
 
If I went to a classical demonstration, I would not expect feathers in cap, airs above the ground or the Spanish Inquisition - I mean Spanish riding school.... ;)

Even if the horse is still learning, i would want to be shown how it should be done, so I would expect the horse not be over bent, to have a connection through from behind and the riders seat to be classical - at least to show the ear - hip - heel alignment.

For any demonstration that I had parted with my money to see, I would expect to be shown how it is supposed to be done - not "this is how NOT to do it". Seeing how a rider corrects an error is beneficial, watching a rider working in a counter intuitive way is not my idea of helpful.

That's just me though - maybe I'm very pernickety!
 
Abbeygale,
If your comment on the Spanish riding school is aimed at me if you read my post I was saying that to me Classical is most demonstrated by the style of the Spanish Riding School, I didn't say I would be expecting a demonstration similar to the Spanish Riding School.
 
wren123 said:
Abbeygale,
If your comment on the Spanish riding school is aimed at me if you read my post I was saying that to me Classical is most demonstrated by the style of the Spanish Riding School, I didn't say I would be expecting a demonstration similar to the Spanish Riding School.
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No - my comment wasn't aimed at you, it was in reply to TS post - sorry I should have included a quote. In addition I am not attacking anyone - JMO, which I am sure does not count for much anyway :). As I went on to say in my post, I would expect a Classical demo to show someone riding in a classical style, which the video does not illustrate for me. Regardless of what the horse is, or is not capable of, I would still expect a Classical demo to have the rider in a classical position.

Again JMO :)
 
LMR, sorry, I wasn't meaning to get at you with my earlier comment and in fact I agree there are parts not to like in the video but without knowing the background it is just so unsafe to judge. In french classical, btv is generally a sin but even then if a horse has a problem flexing at the pole, you might forgive a tiny overbend at some points. Some other classical schools are less concerned about btv.
 
Abbeygale said:
This isn't what I would call classical riding and I would be quite miffed if I had paid to see a demonstration stating that this is classical riding!
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Me too, i watched the video and thought i was waiting to see someone else come on after to demonstrate what was being advertised.
 
I would expect to see a horse very collected and capable of performing the movements with ease when the rider was riding one handed .
 
I'm curious that so many people equate 'Classical' with 'good'. It's just a school of training. Actually it's a variety of schools and basically means 'the way horses used to go when 'court riding' predominated, before the modern rise of the German Competitive School'. As to it being kinder/nicer/more 'correct'. . .well, even reading some of the seminal texts would dispel some of that opinion.

I understand that someone like Sylvia Loch falls under the banner of 'Classical' but what she really is is a particularly skilled and educated trainer with a particular interest in a certain variety of horse and way of training. She's an example, not a representative. As the correct position alignment, that's the standard in most schools, nothing 'Classical' (in fact, look at some of the old etchings. . .). Now, whether or not all participants actually DO it, that's another conversation.
 
" always thought that classical you had to have you seat aligned from heel to hip and using your core.(hope this makes sense)."

Wait, isn't this just how you're meant to ride dressage, regardless of label??
 
Caol Ila said:
" always thought that classical you had to have you seat aligned from heel to hip and using your core.(hope this makes sense)."

Wait, isn't this just how you're meant to ride dressage, regardless of label??
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Yes this is true! Not specific of classical dressage.
 
Caol Ila said:
" always thought that classical you had to have you seat aligned from heel to hip and using your core.(hope this makes sense)."

Wait, isn't this just how you're meant to ride dressage, regardless of label??
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Pretty much. :)

So everyone saying it's not 'Classical' why not? Because it's not high enough quality/level? So, if you take 'Classical' lessons when are you deemed good enough?

I'm actually very interested in this subject, partly because it goes to customer awareness. When you are buying 'Classical' training, as an average rider on an average horse, what, exactly, are you buying? A lot of my education has been in a 'lighter' more 'French' tradition and I wouldn't in a million years call myself a classical trainer, partly because I have only minimal experience with Iberian types. On the other side, I know someone who is trained in quite a Germanic system who now trains and completes for an Andalusian breeder. Is he Classical? Even though he competes?
 
TarrSteps said:
I'm actually very interested in this subject, partly because it goes to customer awareness. When you are buying 'Classical' training, as an average rider on an average horse, what, exactly, are you buying?
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well as an average rider with several average horses - although 2 are spanish types the 3rd is a cob cross.... what I am trying to 'buy' when I have a lesson with a 'classical' trainer is advise on a training system which is light in leg and hand. And not to endlessly be told that I need to keep a lot of weight in the rein and to use enough leg to sweat off a few Easter eggs and probably spurs too until my horse learns to go into my contact. (I know you can train horses to collection without needing to go weight training first because yrs ago on someone else's horses I could produce work like on a light rein.)

so I am buying lightness - or should I say trying to because classical or traditional (and I will try anyone who I think might be useful regardless of lables) I have not had a deal of luck finding it. One instructor who lives 200 miles from me, and the best locally would never call her self classical in a million years.
 
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