Cleveland Bay Debate in this weeks HHO

rollin
I would like to reply to you first, i am really sorry that you lost your colt it is devastating for any owner and in this case a loss to the CB the boys have their part to play in this.
Also i lost my gelding Barbarian Brigadier to a broken neck, an accident in the field he had just turned 3, i still feel the loss over 4 years on as he was showing promise the judges loved him and i was looking forward to the ridden classes
with geldings do you think more should be done to recognise the role they play in promoting the breed?
because you say you dont believe geldings are scrap, and believe geldings fill a vital role so mares can stay at home and be mums

John patrick
I do agree with alot of what you say such as mentioned above mares should if possible stay out of competition and breed foals.
Leave the competitions to the geldings,however not all geldings are filling this role, geldings are thin on the ground as well so everyones efforts count and should be recognised. If i were wearing rose tinted spectacles i would believe this but the truth is that gelding owners feel de-valued and second class citizens,
i am not on my own!
As for the remainder of the comments made by magnific ..., I believe that we are all entitled to our own opinion, after all it is a debate!
 
Harveysmom, sorry to hear about the loss of Barbarian Brigadier. Like Rolllin I think that all pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses are important.

In relation to your comment about this being a debate and people are entitled to their own opoinions I accept that but would also caution that it is sometimes not always in the breed's long term best interests to keep going over these issues again and again.

I am sure that there are far more positive issues that we could all discuss instead that would be more beneficial to the breed and Society?
 
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I will join this debate again later, on my own at the moment with too many horses!! Briefly.

Can I point out that overseas members do not receive any funding through the HBLB grant for mares, stallions, pure bred foals or DNA testing. As far as France is concerned I am not complaining, I cannot telephone or email my UK bookmaker (gated) and last year the Paris Mutual did not feature the Grand National..boo hoo.

I am pleased that mare Premiums will not be based on financial award. I have a mare who should be awarded Premium status based on her quality and regardless of financial reward.
 
There have been a few comments regarding Cleveland Bay activities in North America where it is thought at least 18% of the worldwide population resides and thrives. These comments reflect the views of the one author and not necessarily of all NA breeders, owners and enthusiasts.

Please direct any questions, comments, and concerns about the CB in North America to the Cleveland Bay Horse Society of North America at info@clevelandbay.org or visit www.clevelandbay.org

Thanks so much
 
Attended the CBHS North America annual meeting last week (very productive meeting) which was at the same location as the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy meeting. I was fortunate to attend one of the pre conference seminars with Dr. Phil Sponenberg as one of the panelists.

What Dr. Andy Dell wrote describing Dr. Sponenberg is exactly how he presented his views on grading up and promoting rare breeds. It would be wonderful to have geneticists, biologists and equine researchers at one table in a panel discussion, but I don't think any organization has the money to assemble them at one location to cover their expenses.

Yet if this could be managed, we ALL must come to the table with an open mind and a common goal that we have these horses (pure and partbred) because we love them and want them to thrive now and the future.
 
There is also a very active, independent network of North American Cleveland Bay breeders, owners and exhibitors, that may be reached via email at midatlantic.cb@gmail.com. This informal group puts on a series of Cleveland Bay shows and organizes the annual Cleveland Bay Hunting Days with various packs in Virginia and Maryland (so far). This group also publishes a newsletter at least quarterly.
 
magnificsporthorses said:
There is also a very active, independent network of North American Cleveland Bay breeders, owners and exhibitors, that may be reached via email at midatlantic.cb@gmail.com. This informal group puts on a series of Cleveland Bay shows and organizes the annual Cleveland Bay Hunting Days with various packs in Virginia and Maryland (so far). This group also publishes a newsletter at least quarterly.
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Your Cleveland Bay Hunting Days were 'inspired'. I love my picture size photo of the Middletown Valley Hounds. A fantastic way to promote the breed.

Whenever we are at Lion D'Angers or Saumur for eventing or HDT we put it up in the window of our parked car and lots of admiring French people gather round.

I still hope we will get a UK pack to play.
 
Harvey's mum and John Patrick.

My comments on competition. Of course we should see geldings in competition but I do not agree that mares should be kept just for breeding. We have 300 pure bred mares and this year they produced just 20 foals. There is no reason for them not to compete.

Our i/f mare took part in her first endurance this summer. Our mares only foal every two years anyway, we keep them in work in between.

I think Cleveland Bays can compete with the best in show and working hunter classes, as riding club horses and in endurance, which I am told is the fastest growing sport in the world.

A tale of two breed societies. The Shagya is also a rare breed, with just 50 foals registered each year in France for the past few years. There are just 80 members of Shagya France BUT in 2012 they put 70 foals on the ground.

CBHS has 250-300 members and this year has put just 20 foals on the ground.

AFCAS (Shagya France) identified endurance as the principal shop window for the Shagya and went all out to target this market place. The Cleveland Bay is a fantastic horse for endurance and it has additional benefits, it will carry weight and is sooooo comfortable, that matters. We should encourage our members to have a go. If I can do my first endurance aged 63 ...so can you!!!

2011 Stallion gradings in France. Four International Judges. Video on AFCAS website within a week put up by a volunteer. Just like CBHS no paid help. It is the members that make it happen.
 
I completely agree with Rollin about mares.
We must be positive, and not state what we can not do.

All horses must have a job. I have three pure mares and one partbred mare.
All are ridden, and all purebred mares have or will have purebred foals in their lifetime.
They are great ambassadors for those who do not ride or drive their horses.

Geldings have the most diversity in riding/driving as they don't breed, but
unless there is some injury all sexes should be ridden or driven. At the very least have good ground manners and look healthy and happy in the field.

If your mares and stallions are only to be breeding stock and someone wants a closer look, they must be well handled and mannered for visitors and potential buyers, etc. Yet I am probably preaching to the choir on all of this.

I agree that distance riding which in the States includes endurance and competitive trail are an excellent under utilized market for pure and partbreds.
 
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I find reading all these posts most interesting especially as we have no forum on the official CB web site and thank you JP, at last I have found out what happened at the AGM.
I am sorry but have I missed the point or are people actually saying that geldings are worthless to the breed, they should be the show case for the breed. A lot of every day riders, which is most of the riders in this country, want trainable, sound horses, and about half of them prefer geldings. So why leave lovely CB geldings in the fields unbroken. Also, competition riders of all levels look at the breeding of the horse they are about to buy and would prefer a horse from a stallion with a proven competition record; most people think a stallion history more important than the mares. Are there any Cleveland Bay stallions competing at medium/high level dressage or show jumping, or anything? Perhaps this is where the Breed Society should be looking to give more support
 
Welly said:
I find reading all these posts most interesting especially as we have no forum on the official CB web site and thank you JP, at last I have found out what happened at the AGM.
I am sorry but have I missed the point or are people actually saying that geldings are worthless to the breed, they should be the show case for the breed. A lot of every day riders, which is most of the riders in this country, want trainable, sound horses, and about half of them prefer geldings. So why leave lovely CB geldings in the fields unbroken.
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^^ This.. It would make a lot of sense for the CBHS to support breeders with young geldings to help them develop the youngsters as sport horses.. The geldings could be the flagship of the breed if correctly produced.

The market for the CB needs to be developed.. the debate about the grading and genetics is interesting but nothing to do with marketing the CB as a quality sport horse for the everyday rider and hunter.

Develop the market for the CB and at least half the battle about genetics and breeding will be sorted as the breed will be being bred for a sport (all the different disciplines) .. and will ensure that quality of the CB is continued ..

This is where the ISH and WBs have stolen a march on the CB .. they produce and market their geldings as sport horses (for whichever discipline/s the horse is best suited)

Leaving the geldings in the field and not producing them as quality horses undermines the WHOLE breed.
 
Hello to all concerned, just to clarify it was JP who believes mares should focus on breeding [i agree if they are on mum duties]. You have quite rightly pointed out that with 300 mares out there and only 20 foals born every year, this does mean that 280 mares have no excuses and should compete if possible. The problem is that for what ever reason mares/geldings and stallions are just not competing. Dont you think we need to find out why. As i pointed out already people are so unfamiliar with what a cleveland bay looks like when they see one they think its irish draught, so you can guess who gets the credit if they like what they see, thats not good for clevelands.
Also if there are 20 foals born why do we only see one at shows if we are lucky,foals have the ahh factor a great tool for atracting interest.
JP said he has no problem selling his horses, thats great news, how many JP? the woodlander stud is just down the road from us they sell 30-40 a year and thats just one stud, thats the sort of numbers the cleveland breeders need to aim for.
the woodlander dont need to advertise their horses the top riders competing them do that for them so dont under estimate the need for competition results, thats what will boost interest in the breed and then hopefully you wont be able to keep up with demand.

My horses do not stick to showing, although obviously the two year old has to at the moment, the others have done endurance training rides, fun rides and dressage. This is just the tip of the iceberg for the 5 yr old he likes his jumping so hopefully next year showjumping and hunter trials for him, he started this year with being broken in so did his best in the ridden classes which is far better than not turning up at all.
The people who broke him wanted to take him eventing, he was their first taste of cleveland bays and they loved him, they are fighting over who is going to brake the next one. With the 2 yr old, one of the judges this year advised us to get him professionally produced as she feels he would do well in the hunter classes[i trust this ladies judgement shes been to HOYS enough times to know her stuff]
The bottom line is that my clevelands will have a go at anything. I might have a go at TREC
who knows.
The very fact that my clevelands go out and meet people helps, i have people asking where they can get one, or ask to buy mine [slim chance] so JP my PR skills are helping you sell your horses without you realising it
 
To recap what I said above was: -

“ I have three pure Cleveland Bay mares. I think that it is far more important for the breed’s survival for them to be used to breed good quality pure foals from at present than to take them away from that job to compete them instead. It is not easy to both breed from and compete mares at the same time.”

That was in response to Harveysmom who said to me: -

“I understand your focus on breeding good quality cleveland bays, however you cant just breed them and turn them out in a field and forget them, you need to sell them surely.
That is the concern of some people, there is no point breeding something that you cant sell.
So cleveland bays need to be out competing gaining that all important competition record, pembridge has done it and he can sell his horses.Once there is a demand for cleveland bays their situation will reverse so the two concerns go hand in hand.
Please get your horses into the shop window next year.”

I don’t just breed from my horses, turn them out into a field and forget about them and neither do I think that anyone should do that either.

Rollin said: -

‘ …. but I do not agree that mares should be kept just for breeding. We have 300 pure bred mares and this year they produced just 20 foals. There is no reason for them not to compete. ”….. “ CBHS has 250-300 members and this year has put just 20 foals on the ground. “

The CBHS doesn’t have 250 –300 members based upon the last published data and it certainly doesn’t have 250-300 members who are breeders.

At the CBHS AGM on the 20th October the Stud Book Editor said that there were only around 12 pure foals registered up to that date with the Society for 2012 on a global basis but that he knew that there were others that hadn’t been registered with it.

Texascbs above:-

” I completely agree with Rollin about mares.
We must be positive, and not state what we can not do.
All horses must have a job. I have three pure mares and one partbred mare. All are ridden, and all purebred mares have or will have purebred foals in their lifetime.”

Harveysmom said, “Hello to all concerned, just to clarify it was JP who believes should focus on breeding [I agree if they are on mum duties]. “ …. “ The very fact that my clevelands go out and meet people helps, I have people asking where they can get one, or ask to buy mine [slim chance] so JP my PR skills are helping you sell your horses without you realising it.”

The agreed Cleveland Bay Strategy/ Objectives document that was published in 2009 states that it’s number one strategy is: -

“ To encourage the breeding of Cleveland Bay horses so that by 2018 the breed is no longer listed by the Rare Breeds survival trust in their highest risk category- “Critical 1”.

It goes on to say that it seeks to achieve that by increasing the number of filly foals registered to 30-35 a year from the current level of 27 through strategies 2-7 in the document plus by supporting and encouraging purebred breeders by offering them financial assistance to breed and register pure foals.

Dr Andrew Dell’s research into the breed that was published earlier on this year highlighted that the Society and breeders needs to up their game and breed and register at least 45 pure fillies each year to get the breed off the RBST’s Watchlist critically endangered classification and to be able to maintain the pure breed population going forward.

That is why I think that at present with the low number of pure foals being born and registered, including both fillies and colts that the top priority for mare owners is to breed from them instead of competing them. If the pure ClevelandB horse population is not maintained then it doesn’t matter how much effort goes into marketing and promoting because we will not have any pure foals or horses to sell when people come knocking at our doors to buy them. That involves more mare owners breeding from them than happens at present if they are in a position to do so.

I have argued for some time that at present geldings (both pure and part bred ones) and part bred horses should be used to promote the breed by getting them out in front of the wider equine community in a whole host of ways, including showing and competing them to what ever level the individual horse and it’s owner is competent to perform at or by taking part in various pleasure riding and driving activities that exist.

Obviously it is up to each horse owner to decide what they want to do with their horse. Not everyone has the facilities, resources or time required to breed from their horses. Equally not everyone wants to compete his or her horses either.
 
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John Patrick:

As Rollin wrote, OS breeders (OS defined as anyone outside of the UK) do not qualify for incentive funds from the HRBL. I am not currently a CBHS member but I was for 10 years, and it would have been nice to have some sort of financial assistance for OS member breeders to produce purebreds. For a few years, everyone received a free registration if we had SPARKS compliant foal.
It was only a 15 pound value and a pittance compared to UK benefits, but it was something and much appreciated. Except for cheap petrol, our costs to produce purebreds far exceed those in the UK. The late Nigel Cowgill, studbook editor, used to compliment OS breeders for having our registration paperwork in better order than long time UK breeders.

In North America, we do what we can to help the breed. We sponsor a CB award for kids in US Pony Club who use CBs in their PC activities. Mid Atlantic folks show series are going as is their CB hunting days. People see me riding and hunting my CBs and then they go find breeders here and abroad to buy them. So though my mares do not produce foals every year, they are free advertising for those who keep their mares in production.

I feel it is much better that I ride my purebred mares and breed occasionally than they never are bred or only have partbred foals. I know purebred mares and stallions owned by prestigious members who have never had a pure foal and seem to never leave their own property. That certainly is not good to promote the breed.
 
Hello Texascbs.

This isn’t about whether or not any one member does more for the breed than another ones does. As I have said previously each person will decide for themselves what they think is right for them, their horses and for the breed.

However I don’t think that anyone can successfully argue that we all don’t need to do more collectively to increase the number of pure foals that are being born and registered with the Society at present.

I have merely expressed my point of view in response to a question put to me on this forum by Harveysmom that at this point in time, because the pure Cleveland Bay breed numbers are falling that we should seek to use our pure mares to breed and register from them more pure Cleveland Bay foals each year just as the Society has encouraged us all to do in it’s published Strategy / Objectives document if we want to get anywhere near to achieving the targets outlined in it and in Dr Andrew Dell’s recommendations concerning the number of pure filly foals that we need to breed and registered each year to build the pure Cleveland Bay breeding population up into a more healthy and sustainable position than it is currently in.

The CBHS is fortunate that it has been successful in obtaining from the HRLB an annual grant award to assist UK based pure Cleveland Bay breeders to breed and register more pure foals with it. Without that support the number of pure Cleveland Bay horses would probably be even lower than it is at present. That is something that none of us want.

The CBHS doesn’t set the conditions attached to the grant award but it has to comply with them if it wants to receive the money. The conditions are determined by the HRLB and by the UK taxman. The grant money can only be used to support UK based issues and breeders whether you and I like that or not.

I have argued within the Society for some time that it could and should use some of it’s reserves that don’t have any such restrictions placed on them to support overseas members. I would personally like to reach a position where all members wherever they are based are treated in the same way.
 
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John Patrick

I believe we all must work together worldwide to get this breed back on its feet. We need more communication and marketing. When more people to see the purebred's qualities and a riding and driving horse and a breed to outcross for top sport horses, then breeders will produce more. The subsidies are good but only one piece as as stated due to UK federal law limited to UK residents.

Both strategies work together breed and get them into the public eye. We must do it at the grassroots level all working together as no one is going to hand to us. We have discussed what activities CB groups are doing in North America. Australasia just completed a successful exposition at Equitana and their show season is now getting into full swing. You guys have Olympia and then we start again with breeding and shows in the new year.
 
Zuzan said:
^^ This.. It would make a lot of sense for the CBHS to support breeders with young geldings to help them develop the youngsters as sport horses.. The geldings could be the flagship of the breed if correctly produced.

The market for the CB needs to be developed.. the debate about the grading and genetics is interesting but nothing to do with marketing the CB as a quality sport horse for the everyday rider and hunter.

Develop the market for the CB and at least half the battle about genetics and breeding will be sorted as the breed will be being bred for a sport (all the different disciplines) .. and will ensure that quality of the CB is continued ..

This is where the ISH and WBs have stolen a march on the CB .. they produce and market their geldings as sport horses (for whichever discipline/s the horse is best suited)

Leaving the geldings in the field and not producing them as quality horses undermines the WHOLE breed.
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Zusan,

Britain continues to treat horse breeding and ownership as the preserve of the wealthy, and of little economic importance. As evidenced by for example planning restrictions for stables, field shelters and even show jumps.

The rest of Europe treats breeders in the same way as farmers. At great expense we employ a French Agricultural Accountant who is worth every penny - were he not, we would have closed this stud four years ago.

Ireland is one of those EU nation states which values horse breeding. You cannot compare ISH with CBHS.

Did you know that the French National Stud gives financial support for Breed Championships for a whole range of 'non-French' breeds, including British natives?

In 2009, the Director of the French National Stud and the head of SIRE the French Equine database offered to travel to Yorkshire and meet with CBHS Council. They received a rude rebuff.

What a pity. Perhaps we would now see CB Championships in France funded by IFCE.
 
texascbs said:
I would love to come and have a nice holiday in France and visit my husband's aunt outside of Paris.

Now trying to figure out how to afford the 2014 World Championships out there too.
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Is that a hint? Just take the TGV to Le Man 90mins from Paris and we will collect you! You have to help with the chores though. The Equine Director at Colonial Williamsburg is an FEI course builder for HDT. We know he will be here in 2014.

An American invasion perhaps?
 
John Patrick said:
Hello Texascbs.

This isn’t about whether or not any one member does more for the breed than another ones does. As I have said previously each person will decide for themselves what they think is right for them, their horses and for the breed.

However I don’t think that anyone can successfully argue that we all don’t need to do more collectively to increase the number of pure foals that are being born and registered with the Society at present.

I have merely expressed my point of view in response to a question put to me on this forum by Harveysmom that at this point in time, because the pure Cleveland Bay breed numbers are falling that we should seek to use our pure mares to breed and register from them more pure Cleveland Bay foals each year just as the Society has encouraged us all to do in it’s published Strategy / Objectives document if we want to get anywhere near to achieving the targets outlined in it and in Dr Andrew Dell’s recommendations concerning the number of pure filly foals that we need to breed and registered each year to build the pure Cleveland Bay breeding population up into a more healthy and sustainable position than it is currently in.

The CBHS is fortunate that it has been successful in obtaining from the HRLB an annual grant award to assist UK based pure Cleveland Bay breeders to breed and register more pure foals with it. Without that support the number of pure Cleveland Bay horses would probably be even lower than it is at present. That is something that none of us want.

The CBHS doesn’t set the conditions attached to the grant award but it has to comply with them if it wants to receive the money. The conditions are determined by the HRLB and by the UK taxman. The grant money can only be used to support UK based issues and breeders whether you and I like that or not.

I have argued within the Society for some time that it could and should use some of it’s reserves that don’t have any such restrictions placed on them to support overseas members. I would personally like to reach a position where all members wherever they are based are treated in the same way.
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You are quite correct. I believe, however, that match funding has to be provided by CBHS, which is discretionary?

I am not complaining about the 'dosh' as I have said. That is a drop in the ocean compared to 7 years of warfare over registration of pure bred foals born in France. I DO think that Premium status should be awarded on the quality of each horse presented. I am more than happy to pay travel expenses for an Assessor AND I would like that inspection to printed on open forum.

Even if my horse gets poor marks. No point having a QA system if it is a well kept secret.

Our customers need to understand what denotes a Premium horse.
 
Chores are no problem at all. Not hinting just dreaming.

I know our huntsman from Dorset wants to go too and her mom is still near the New Forest area. ?? not sure.

so darned tempting, and then I need to find my way to Aurainville to see hubby's aunt.

Back to CBs. Must get out and promote them.
thanks
 
Rollin said:
Zusan,

Britain continues to treat horse breeding and ownership as the preserve of the wealthy, and of little economic importance. As evidenced by for example planning restrictions for stables, field shelters and even show jumps.

The rest of Europe treats breeders in the same way as farmers. At great expense we employ a French Agricultural Accountant who is worth every penny - were he not, we would have closed this stud four years ago.

Ireland is one of those EU nation states which values horse breeding. You cannot compare ISH with CBHS.

Did you know that the French National Stud gives financial support for Breed Championships for a whole range of 'non-French' breeds, including British natives?

In 2009, the Director of the French National Stud and the head of SIRE the French Equine database offered to travel to Yorkshire and meet with CBHS Council. They received a rude rebuff.

What a pity. Perhaps we would now see CB Championships in France funded by IFCE.
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I don’t doubt that Britain is uniquely awkward about the equine industries.. but my point is not that the UK doesn’t disadvantage (comparative to other EU countries) breeders … and I’m not comparing ISH breeding / warmbloods etc directly with the CB.. Just that CB breeders need to have support to produce and compete their horses.. the Geldings especially.

My feeling is that the funds the CBHS has earmarked for marketing would be better directed to the production / training of the geldings. Even as a loss leader their purpose may not be best in terms of generating income but as flagships for the breed.

Getting hung up on financial support isn’t the point (tho of course it helps)…

Quite clearly despite the CBHS support to breeders it isn’t working in terms of foals on the ground.. no support will work unless the breeders have a market to sell their young stock into.

I am sure if the CB had a market the breeding would happen. Demand is the key to getting youngsters on the ground.

Look at the market for Irish / coloured Cobs.. why is the UK importing them when we have the superb CB?

Le Trec is gaining ground as a popular equestrian sport and a discipline I bet the CB would be the ultimate horse for this newish discipline.

The CBHS needs to look for opportunities in the market and exploit them better.

My point is about making the market for horses work for the CB. It is about market development.

Am shocked at the CBHS rebuff to the French Nat Stud and SIRE. Why were they rebuffed?
 
I DO think that Premium status should be awarded on the quality of each horse presented. I am more than happy to pay travel expenses for an Assessor AND I would like that inspection to printed on open forum.

Even if my horse gets poor marks. No point having a QA system if it is a well kept secret.

Our customers need to understand what denotes a Premium horse.[/QUOTE]

Yes we need more open records. Over in the States, many don't understand that a premium stallion in the UK isn't better than a QA stallion. Premium doesn't mean better than, it means one receives a payment or premium if once inspected they agree to the terms listed by the CHBS. Sort of like US farm subsidies. Now that the CBHS has granted premium mares OS which makes it even more confusing as premium OS mares are sort of the equivalent of a QA stallion because a premium OS mare doesn't get s premium or payment but they are premium ie. premium quality. Wish the CBHS would have come up with a different term for mares like QA mare or Elite mare instead of premium.

Just think OS breeders manage to show, ride, drive, hunt and produce purebreds probably at a higher rate than our friends in the UK, and we do it without subsidies. We have them just not all registered. I think we had at least 5 pures born in NA last year. not sure
 
Hi, i think Zuzan has got the point im trying to make, if pure-bred geldings go out and do a good job advertising the breed the breeders will need to increase the amount they breed to match the increased damand
why do you think companies pay for advertising on the telly, its to INCREASE sales.
The pure-bred gelding owners have been offering you this on a plate and you dont seem to See the advantage, i did say you think of them as waste
Start thinking of them as salesman

To correct JP i was refering to the number of mares of breeding age not the number of members of the CBHS
If there are 300 mares of breeding age and we only get 20 foals a year what are the other 280 mares doing?
if demand was good enough i bet all 300 would be expecting, the point to this is i think we would struggle to sell 300 foals a year at present
Coloured horses are in fashion at the moment this has not always been the case
ex racehorses used to go for meat now we cant get enough of them
Two examples of what good marketing can do
thanks for the support Zuzan
 
I am not aware of any marketing budget. I give my time and expertise for free.

If you look at the accounts, which have to be of public record for a Charity, you will see that the society is hard pressed to cover basic overheads.

Which is why in common with other charities a number of members engage in fund raising. I hope their efforts will be recognised in the next Bay Window.
 
Marketing
Many non profits have limited budgets.
It is down to members and enthusiasts to post as much possible on free websites and forums and wear CB stuff at events, shows, etc. Add CB stuff to your horse box, trailers, etc, and if someone walks by and asks about CBs, you take the time to promote the breed besides your own horses.

The CBHS North America produced a DVD that is free to anyone as long as they pay actual postage. write info@clevelandbay.org It will play on computers if you live outside North America. All members should have flyers or info brochures handy in their truck or trailer when someone asks about CBs.

All members must submit articles and upcoming events to CB and any publication, and press your editors to publish articles not just about purebreds but about Partbreds too.

it takes effort from everyone and you can do it on a shoe string budget, if you can get many involved.
 
Hi Rollin, i wasnt suggesting any money be given to gelding owners, we, as i said are ready and willing to promote the breed, its just we do feel as though,how can i put it, we are not welcome at the party
JP puts breeding as the main priority and it is important but he focuses on that at the cost of anyone elses interests in the cleveland bay. If non-breeding stock can increase the appeal of the breed JP will need to breed more
As a non breeding owner i need to focus my attention on showing the public what i lovely horse they really are
I not even sure if im allowed to put CB material on my horsebox,im happy to do so and am happy to talk CB to anyone who comes over always have been
 
Harveysmom said :-

“Hi Rollin, i wasnt suggesting any money be given to gelding owners, we, as i said are ready and willing to promote the breed, its just we do feel as though,how can i put it, we are not welcome at the party
JP puts breeding as the main priority and it is important but he focuses on that at the cost of anyone elses interests in the cleveland bay. If non-breeding stock can increase the appeal of the breed JP will need to breed more
As a non breeding owner i need to focus my attention on showing the public what i lovely horse they really are
I not even sure if im allowed to put CB material on my horsebox,im happy to do so and am happy to talk CB to anyone who comes over always have been “

I have not said at anytime that I or anyone else should focus on breeding as Harveysmom says above “ at the cost of anyone elses interests in the cleveland bay.“

What I did said in my posts was:-

(1) In my first post on 17-11-12 at 02:46 AM.

“My focus is on as you say, “ breeding good quality Cleveland Bays”. Given the very low number of pure Cleveland Bay foals being born and registered with the Society at the moment that should be the prime focus of all concerned Cleveland Bay breeders in the immediate future if we are going to have enough pure horses on the ground to sustain the pure Cleveland Bay horse population going forward.

I have three pure Cleveland Bay mares. I think that it is far more important for the breed’s survival for them to be used to breed good quality pure foals from at present than to take them away from that job to compete them instead. It is not easy to both breed from and compete mares at the same time.”

(2) In my second post on the 20-11-12 at 01:47 AM.

“I don’t just breed from my horses, turn them out into a field and forget about them and neither do I think that anyone should do that either.”

& further on in the same post.

“The agreed Cleveland Bay Strategy/ Objectives document that was published in 2009 states that it’s number one strategy is: -

“ To encourage the breeding of Cleveland Bay horses so that by 2018 the breed is no longer listed by the Rare Breeds survival trust in their highest risk category- “Critical 1”.

It goes on to say that it seeks to achieve that by increasing the number of filly foals registered to 30-35 a year from the current level of 27 through strategies 2-7 in the document plus by supporting and encouraging purebred breeders by offering them financial assistance to breed and register pure foals.

Dr Andrew Dell’s research into the breed that was published earlier on this year highlighted that the Society and breeders needs to up their game and breed and register at least 45 pure fillies each year to get the breed off the RBST’s Watchlist critically endangered classification and to be able to maintain the pure breed population going forward.

That is why I think that at present with the low number of pure foals being born and registered, including both fillies and colts that the top priority for mare owners is to breed from them instead of competing them. If the pure ClevelandB horse population is not maintained then it doesn’t matter how much effort goes into marketing and promoting because we will not have any pure foals or horses to sell when people come knocking at our doors to buy them. That involves more mare owners breeding from them than happens at present if they are in a position to do so.”

(3) In my third post on 20-11-12 at 03:00 AM.

“ This isn’t about whether or not any one member does more for the breed than another ones does. As I have said previously each person will decide for themselves what they think is right for them, their horses and for the breed.

However I don’t think that anyone can successfully argue that we all don’t need to do more collectively to increase the number of pure foals that are being born and registered with the Society at present.

I have merely expressed my point of view in response to a question put to me on this forum by Harveysmom that at this point in time, because the pure Cleveland Bay breed numbers are falling that we should seek to use our pure mares to breed and register from them more pure Cleveland Bay foals each year just as the Society has encouraged us all to do in it’s published Strategy / Objectives document if we want to get anywhere near to achieving the targets outlined in it and in Dr Andrew Dell’s recommendations concerning the number of pure filly foals that we need to breed and registered each year to build the pure Cleveland Bay breeding population up into a more healthy and sustainable position than it is currently in.”

I specified in my post on the 17-11-12 at 02:46 AM to Harveysmom that:-

“ I agree with you and other commentators that the Cleveland Bay horse needs to be far better promoted to the general equine fraternity than it is has been so far, if only to dispel the inaccurate negative impression that some people have about it. I am pleased that the Society has applied to the HRLB for some additional funding to help it to advertise stallions to mare owners as other Societies do in advance of the covering season.

(4) It is not all about horses having a competition record though. There are different potential sales markets for both pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses such as the large leisure and pleasure riding and driving ones which should not be ignored as others have already said.
I would personally prefer to see geldings and part bred Cleveland Bay horses out competing than pure Cleveland Bay mares. I would also like to see their owners promoting them as part bred Cleveland Bay when they are out competing. If people see part bred Cleveland Bay horses being successful when out competing horses, as I believe that they can be against other breeds and types of horses based upon the success of the likes of Spring Pascal, Baydale Venus and Hawlmark Classic Twilight to name a few that should generate interest in the breed and in retaining pure Cleveland Bays in order to be able to breed more good quality part bred horses in the future.”

I went on to say to Harveysmomet al in my post on the 20-11-12 at 01:47 AM that:-

“ I have argued for some time that at present geldings (both pure and part bred ones) and part bred horses should be used to promote the breed by getting them out in front of the wider equine community in a whole host of ways, including showing and competing them to what ever level the individual horse and it’s owner is competent to perform at or by taking part in various pleasure riding and driving activities that exist.

Obviously it is up to each horse owner to decide what they want to do with their horse. Not everyone has the facilities, resources or time required to breed from their horses. Equally not everyone wants to compete his or her horses either. “

My position accords with that of the Cleveland Bay Horse Society as expressed in it’s latest approved Cleveland Bay Strategy/Objectives document which is as follows:-.

Strategy.

1.To encourage the breeding of Cleveland bay horses so that by 2018 the breed is no longer listed by the Rare Breeds Survival Trust in their highest risk category - critical”.
- Increase the number of filly foals registered to 30-35 a year from the current level of 27 through strategies 2-7.
- To support and encourage by financial assistance for purebred breeders.(2).

2.To create a worldwide demand for pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses by promoting the versatility and potential of the breed.
- Set up a marketing role within the CBHS to actively target magazines, equestrian events and facilities to promote the breed.(4).
- Recognise performance excellence in the pure and part bred and provide a mechanism of support. (5).
- Create an effective website to promote and maintain interest in the breed. (1).

3.To preserve our native breed heritage, breed standard and the genetic health of the breed by encouraging the careful selection of mares and stallions.
- Arrange local workshops to explain what equates to good confirmation and breed standards for both mares and stallions and how Sparks and 8-generation bloodlines work.
- Devise mechanisms to bring together the best mares and stallions to continually improve the confirmation of the breed.

4. To maintain and publish a Society Stud book and maintain a separate Part Bred Register. -Maintain our Passport issuing Authority status through administrative excellence.

5.To appoint suitably qualified Judges, Inspectors and other official who act in the best interests of the breed at all times.
- Ensure a consistency of judges and inspectors through training workshops.
- Regularly review the Judges panel to ensure continued high standards.

6. To create a modern open society that communicates its strategy to its members so that it can recruit, retain and involve members in developing a progressive society that effectively supports the breed.
- Obtain regular and open feedback through the Internet, Bay Window, Annual Magazine and Council members. (6).
- Work with council members in an atmosphere of purpose and trust.
- Achieve 500 members by 2012. (7).

7.To develop effective partnerships with other relevant organizations in support of the strategies of the CBHS.
- Develop best practice from other societies that support the strategy.
- Identify sponsorship opportunities to benefit the society. (3).

8.To act at all times in accordance with the status of the CBHS as a registered Charity.
- Regularly assess the actions of the CBHS against Registered Charity rules for guidance.
 
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John Patrick

I hope the CBHS will achieve this goal, and I hope OS breeders will be included
in the mix. I know I am not a member, but I do support the CBHS' mission.
Yet I just can't plunk down 45 pounds plus conversion fees which is about $90 US to be a member when I see very little support and recognition (not just financial) for OS breeders.

Yet perhaps things will change. The CBHSNA received a lovely letter wishing us the best at our 2012 AGM. First letter we received from the CBHS in yeara.
That is a fantastic positive sign and much appreciated.
 
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