Cleveland Bay Debate in this weeks HHO

Texascbs, like you I also hope that the CBHS will achieve the outcomes for the Cleveland Bay breed that it has outlined in it’s Mission Statement and Cleveland Bay Strategy/Objectives document.

In order to achieve that situation it will require that all Cleveland Bay breeders and Society members work collectively together where ever they are located globally it is obviously has to include overseas breeders as well as UK based ones.

I am pleased to hear from you that ” The CBHSNA received a lovely letter wishing us the best at our 2012 AGM. First letter we received from the CBHS in years. That is a fantastic positive sign and much appreciated.”

I agree with what you said in your post on the 20-11-12 at 01:16 PM when you stated that:- “ I believe we all must work together worldwide to get this breed back on its feet. We need more communication and marketing. When more people to see the purebred's qualities and a riding and driving horse and a breed to outcross for top sport horses, then breeders will produce more. The subsidies are good but only one piece as stated due to UK federal law limited to UK residents.”

I also appreciate that as you said in your post on 18-11-12 at 01:42 PM that:- “…. it is thought at least 18% of the worldwide population resides and thrives “ in North America.

I am mindful though that there were only14 overseas pure foals out of 65 registered with the Society in its Stud Book in 2007, 11 out of 57 in 2008,13 out of 54 in 2009, none out of 37 in 2010, 3 out of 36 in 2011 & only one or two out of around the twenty or so foals registered to date with the CBHS in 2012.

The other major breeding population outside of the UK / Europe and North America is in Australasia. Very few pure Cleveland Bay foals have been registered with Cleveland Bay Horse Society in its Stud Book by breeders based in Australasia in recent years. I am mindful that the CBHSA has it’s own Part Bred Register and that that some breeders based in Australasia may be tempted to register their horses in that instead of in the Society’s main Stud Book. That will reduce the size of the recognized registered pure Cleveland Bay breeding global population in future years.

The CBHS is a DEFRA approved Stud Book holder for the Cleveland bay breed. It is the international Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay horse breed. As such all breeders based overseas are just as important to the CBHS as the ones that are based here in the UK.
 
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John Patrick

I believe there are more purebred foals born the past several years from OS that registered. Our costs are much higher than UK breeders. Costs the obvious like registration fees. Yet OS breeders must pay veterinarians do fill out the marking sheets and pull hair as we don't have certified lay people authorized to mark the identification forms and pulling hairs. We pay the entire fees for DNA and then must convert it to pounds and any foreign currency charges and send it all by international postage. So one must really be committed to register as the cost is much more.

I am also a CBHS Australasia member where one can register your purebred in their book. Yet the CBHSA always encourages members to register with the CBHS UK and have stallions licensed with the UK and provides quite a bit of information on their/our website on how to register in the UK.

The Society (UK) should also try to request folks not to keep saying their are only 500 world wide. My guess is at least a 1,000. I counted mares only on the CBHSNA census, and there are about 89. If you double that roughly for the males, that is roughly 180 declared purebreds in North America. If we only have 500 world wide, then OS pures (NA, AU, NZ, Europe) is 40% of the total population. That can not be correct.
 
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Hello Texascbs.

I have taken the figures that I have quoted above concerning the number of pure Cleveland Bay foals that have been registered with the Cleveland Bay Horse Society in its Stud Book since 2007 to 2011 from the CBHS Stud Book Editor’s report that was presented to a Council Meeting and was also made available to the wider CBHS membership in an article published in a Cleveland Bay Magazine so they are accurate and include all of the overseas pure Cleveland Bay foals registered with the Society for those years.

I don’t think that there are any other overseas foals that have been registered with the CBHS but would be pleased to be proved wrong. I am aware about a number of overseas pure Cleveland Bay foals in both North America and in Australasia that haven’t been registered so far with the CBHS in it’s Stud Book.

Some of them may have been registered with the Cleveland Bay Horse Society Australasia given that it’s stated Mission is: -

" To promote and preserve the pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horse, and to encourage and assist their showing, exhibition,
and competition throughout Australasia.

To establish and maintain registers of horses and owners.

To support breeders of Cleveland ay horses and to encourage and facilitate communication amongst
members.

To establish and maintain communication with like minded Cleveland Bay Horse Societies throughout the world and to
further the interests of the CBHSA."

That contrasts with the Cleveland Bay Horse Society of North America Mission Statement, which is: -

“ To promote the Cleveland Bay Horse, preserve it's heritage and ensure it's future. “

When I get a foal registered here in the UK I also have to pay for a vet to come out to fill out the horse identification chart, to pull some from its mane or tail to obtain a hair follicle to use for DNA testing to confirm the parentage of the foal before it is registered.

As a CBHS member I pay £20 to have a foal registered with the Society if I register it before the31st December in the year of the foals birth or within six months of the birth. Thereafter it is £25. If I was a UK based non-CBHS member then I would be charged £60 if I registered the foal within the timescales outlined above and £70 for a late registration.

I pay £47.40 to have a DNA test carried out.

I agree with what you say above people incorrectly stating the wrong number of horses in the pure Cleveland Bay horse population. Indeed there have been examples of that happening in some of the posts on this thread. For example Rollin said on the 19-11-12 at 06:54 PM that “We have 300 pure bred mares and this year they produced just 20 foals. There is no reason for them not to compete.”

Harveysmom saying on 20-11-12 at 12:03 AM followed that up: -

“ Hello to all concerned, just to clarify it was JP who believes mares should focus on breeding [I agree if they are on mum duties]. You have quite rightly pointed out that with 300 mares out there and only 20 foals born every year, this does mean that 280 mares have no excuses and should compete if possible.”

Harveysmom also posted on the 21-11-21 at 06:05 AM that:-

“To correct JP I was referring to the number of mares of breeding age not the number of members of the CBHS
If there are 300 mares of breeding age and we only get 20 foals a year what are the other 280 mares doing?
If demand was good enough I bet all 300 would be expecting, the point to this is I think we would struggle to sell 300 foals a year at present.”

The reality is that there are far less than the 300 breeding mares quoted.

I think that this error may have come about because the Rare Breeds Survival Trust maintains a Watch list of endangered breeds, in which Category 1 critical is the most endangered status. To be in this list a breed has to have fewer then 300 breeding females. To assess this the RBST take a “breeding female” to be one who has produced a registered foal. To calculates the number of adult breeding females for the Watch List the RBST uses the number of female registrations averaged over the last three full years and applies a multiplier derived from the average generation intervals across a number of domestic horse breeds (6.67) to give an estimate of the number of adult breeding females.

Dr Andrew Dell’s research shows that the average generational interval for the Cleveland Bay breed is 10 and not 6.67 years, which might therefore be a more appropriate multiplier.

However, using data provided by the CBHS in late 2009 for the 2010 RBST Watchlist the RBST calculation gives an average of 24 female registrations per year over 2006-2008, to which the multiplier of 6.67 is applied, resulting in an estimation of 162 breeding females. This figure indicates that a doubling of the breeding stock would be needed for the breed to be “downgraded” from its present ”Critical” status.
Dr Andrew Dells research also highlights that the majority of breeding females only have one registered pure foal in their lifetime. The estimated number of breeding females may have changed from the last published figure of 162 breeding females based on the number of foal registrations from 2009 onwards but it will have fallen and not risen to anywhere near the 300 figure quoted by some people on this thread.
 
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John Patrick

Registration is a multi faceted issue. Yes you pay near what the rest of us do OS, but with the UK government subsidies a realistic comparison is impossible. This debate can go on forever, but what we have isn't working the best. So perhaps trying to think of something else to get OS breeders to register might help.

Plus there is the exchange rate to consider. As we all know it is forever changing and sometimes can be brutal depending on each country's economy at the time.

I can easily understand why the CBHSA have their own studbook, and I support it. As long as they share their purebred information with the main studbook, more power to them. They are well organized, they list up to date pure and sport horse stallion contact information on their website, they have an online census available to the public for several years, they have a healthy Performance Awards program, and despite vastness of the Australian continent they manage drive many hours each way to show and exhibit CBs, and they rarely ever write anything negative about the CBHS on public forums
 
Hello Texascbs.

I appreciate that every organization, including the CBHS, the CBHSA and the CBHSNA has strengths and weaknesses, can do more than it presently does in the eyes of some people to please them, has a history of doing both good and less positive things, and because of that has both fans and also some people who don’t like what it has done or it’s policy decisions.

I am not sure what you are personally proposing that the CBHS should do now to encourage more overseas
breeders and horse owners like yourself to join it instead of or as well as joining the other non affiliated Cleveland Bay Societies such as the CBHSNA that you are a Board of Directors member of or the CBHSA that has set up it’s own rival stud book to that of the long standing internationally recognized CBHS Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book? You say above that “This debate can go on forever, but what we have isn't working the best. So perhaps trying to think of something else to get OS breeders to register might help.” Perhaps you can explain what you are proposing?

I am mindful that the CBHSNA and the CBHSA are not affiliated in anyway to the CBHS and are perhaps "rival" organizations with their own regional agendas that differ on occasions to that of the CBHS that will want people to join them rather than to join the CBHS. I accept that there has been and I hope will continue to be a long history of the three organizations working closely with each other to preserve and promote the Cleveland Bay horse to the wider equine community but also recognize that each organization will have members that gravitate towards it and are loyal to it and not to the other “rival” ones.

There are also other factors that come into play here to explain why some overseas people might be reluctant to join the CBHS such as the fact that in North America and in Australasia, unlike here in the UK and in Europe there is not or a statutory requirement to obtain a horse passport or for horses to be registered with any organization other than with some of the competition bodies to be able to take part in their various equine events. That might explain why less North American people are keen to pay to register their horses with the CBHS and why some people in Australasia prefer to join the CBHSA instead because they have to do so and to register their horses with it in order to be able to take part in some of the shows that it hosts? I can understands that perhaps some people who live in Australasia would not want to pay to register their Cleveland Bay horses with the CBHS despite the fact that it is internationally recognized Society Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay breed when they would then also have to pay to register them in the CBHSA register as well to be able to take part in it’s shows and other events. That might encourage them to register their horses with the CBHSA in its Part Bred Register instead of with the CBHS in its Stud Book. If the CBHSA did not operate in that way then perhaps more Australasian based people would join and register their horses with the CBHS.

If people in both North America and in Australasia continue to join and register their horses with a "rival" organization or just don’t register their horses with the CBHS then the Cleveland Bay horse will be the looser in the long term because the number of internationally recognized pure Cleveland Bay horses entered into the Cleveland Bay breed's Stud Book will reduce and it will become even more fragmented than it is at present into the three separate breeding populations, one here in the UK / ERurope, one in North America and one in Australasia with little or no exchange of genetics between them.

If horses are entered into different stud books over time they will each develop their own entry requirements that will differ more and more from each other with the result that fewer horses based abroad will meet the eligibility conditions to be put into the CBHS internationally recognized Cleveland Bay breed Stud Book.

I would contend that the CBHS Stud Book should be the one of choice that all Cleveland Bay horse breeders enter their horses into because it is the long standing internationally recognized Stud Book for the Cleveland Bay horse breed and as such sets and maintains the entry requirements that defines what a pure Cleveland Bay horses is on a global basis just as other such internationally recognized breed societies that are the Stud Book holder for their particular breed do on behalf of that breed.

I would prefer that people would put their efforts and resources into working positively together as equals to preserve and promote pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horse on a global scale. The breed population isn’t big enough to be fragmented in any other way if it is going to be maintained as a healthy breeding population if people seriously want to be able to retain it as a distinct breed of horse.
 
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John Patrick

Please remember we both come from totally different worlds and backgrounds. We had different experiences with the breed and Societies.

We both support the Breed and want it to thrive. The CBHSA supports the CBHS and many of its members double register with both organizations. I feel the CBHSA system seems to be working for them, and they work with the CBHS.

As you have seen from my many previous threads, I support registration by breeders and that registration is maintained through transfers. I have spent hundreds of hours and my own money to help OS owners and breeders register horses with the CBHS. You sometimes seem to make it sound like it is the CBHS or nothing. I was the Chair for the 2011 CBHSNA Annual meeting in early November 2011 and helped arrange the site location for a CBHS QA and US style premium mare inspection. The owners received notification whether their horses passed or failed in Early May 2012: Six months later.

I still support the CBHS, but making owners wait that long for results sure does tests one's loyalty.

The OS breeders and owners are doing their best based on the hand we are dealt. Rollin has been waiting years for the CBHS on her issues.

I am writing on this thread as an individual. When I participate as a board member, I end posts by directing reading the the CBHSNA and their official address.

If readers believe a board/Council/Committee member may not participate
on forums as an individual I had better stick to general horse subjects only.

Happy Weekend
 
Hello Texascbs,

First, I have absolutely no problem what so ever with either yourself or any other Board / Council / Committee member participating on this or on any other forum either as an individual or as a representative of their organization. Indeed I wish that
more people in these roles would participate much more than some of them do now because we would at least know where they stand on important issues concerning the breed that are being discussed on the forums and would also know from the “horses mouth” so to speak what each of the organizations stance on these matters was as well.

You say that you “ feel the CBHSA system seems to be working for them, and they work with the CBHS.” That might be the case but when so few pure Cleveland Bay foals are being registered with the CBHS at present bearing in mind that it is the internationally recognized Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay horse breed globally and you say yourself in your post above that” I can easily understand why the CBHSA have their own studbook, and I support it” then something must be wrong?

I am aware from our previous conversations that you have spent hours of your time personally assisted people to register their horses with the CBHS. I would have hoped that you would also support the CBHS in it’s efforts to maintain the Cleveland Bay Horse Society Stud Book as the Stud Book of choice for all serious Cleveland Bay breeders to register their horses in by encouraging both the CBHSA Committee and individual Australasian breeders to register their horses in it and not in a potentially “rival” Australasia one that could un intentionally dilute the pure Cleveland Bay horse population further than it need to be or can stand.

I am aware that you also know that I have said on numerous occasions that all is not right with the CBHS so I have not come on here to defend all of it’s past actions but I am concerned that the pure Cleveland Bay breed needs all of the support that it can get if it is to prosper and I feel that is more likely to be obtained if we all work together as equals around the same table rather than as potentially "rival" organizations around separate tables.

For example I think that the decision that the organizations took a few years ago to remove the rightsthat existed then for representatives from each of the organization to have a seat on the other organizations Council / Board / Committee was a retrograde one that should be over turned.

I have supported the introduction of issues such as the use of postal and proxy voting in the CBHS so that overseas members and UK based ones who can’t attend Annual General Meetings have a right to have their view heard when votes are counted.

I have also attempted to assist Rollin as far as I have been able when I have been in a position to do so to get her issue resolved as she can testify.

I remain of the opinion that the divided way that the breed is presently structured on a global scale may have emerged for good reasons in each part of the world but that doesn’t mean that it is the best option now to move the breed forward.

Again I have not and am not claiming that the CBHS has been right in everything that it has done but if people like yourself who are committed to the breed remain outside of it instead helping to change it from inside I think that we will all achieve far less for the breed than we all could if we all got around the same table to shared our experience, knowledge and resources.

Happy Thanksgiving.
 
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John Patrick

You know that at least two CBHSNA board members fought hard against the proposal to exclude OS members from the board. The proposal was sent to the membership where it passed by majority but it was not unanimous. OS members may be on most CBHSNA committees, and OS members may participate in ALL performance awards and programs. In fact, a OS member from the UK won several performance awards a few years ago.

I am sorry some feel the CBHSA registry is a "rival" to the CBHS stud book. I do not. If I lived in Australasia, I would register with both. I may not register immediately if the exchange rate seemed high at the time, but I would before the foal reaches breeding age.

Let's move forward on positive aspects of working together and promoting the breed from what we all can do from what resources we have.
 
Hello Texascbs.

I am a member of the CBHS.

I am aware that you are not a member of the CBHS but that you are a member of both the CBHSNA and of the CBHSA.

I think that I am correct in saying that Talkingshell is a Committee member of the CBHSA.

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society was founded in 1884. It’s Memorandum and Article of Association state that: -

“ The Objects for which the Society is established are to preserve and improve the standard of horses in general and of the Cleveland Bay Horse in particular by improving the standard of breeding of Cleveland Bay Horses and by promoting the introduction of Cleveland Bay blood into horse breeding. “

They go onto say: -

“ In furtherance of these objects but not further or otherwise the Society shall have the following powers: -. 3(b) To compile and publish a Stud Book for such Horses and a Register of Part Bred Horses and to acquire the copyright of any such Stud Book, or of any pedigrees already published, or of any such Register.”

I respect that fact that the CBHSNA that was founded in 1885 has not set up it’s own Stud Book of Register unlike the CBHSA which has been established more recently.

The Cleveland Bay Horse Society is a Defra approved Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay breed. It is internationally recognized as such. For example if you go onto the website www.ueln.net you will see that it is intended for all the official organisations concerned by horse registration, breeding and sport. It presents the result of international meetings between the most important international organizations, which work on improving the communication between horse registers. The CBHS is listed on it as the Breed Society that is responsible for registering Cleveland Bay horses.

I have looked at how other Defra approved Passport Issuing Organizations here in the UK deal with the situation when a person who approaches them to issue their with a passport when it is clear from the foals pedigree that it’s parents have already been registered as a pedigree horse or pony by the recognized Society for that breed that is also approved by Defra as a Passport Issuing Organization.

I cite for example the British Miniature Horse Society, which has issued the following guidance: -

“DEFRA Regulations for the issue of Equine Passports
Any Passport Issuing Authority (PIA) can issue a passport for any horse, but by agreement with DEFRA, PIA’s should ensure that, if a horse is eligible for inclusion in a Stud Book then the application is directed to the relevant PIA. For example, if we receive an application for a horse that has two Shetland registered parents then it is our duty to direct this application to the Shetland Pony Stud Book Society. Only they can verify the breeding, and so put sire and dam details onto the passport. We cannot include breeding details unless they have been proven to us to DEFRA minimum standards, which are:

SIRE’S BREEDING REPORT NAMES THE DAM AND IS SUBMITTED TO THE SOCIETY IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS REGULATIONS – OTHERWISE BY DNA TESTING

DAM IS IDENTIFIED WITH THE FOAL AT FOOT BY A VET OR COMPETENT PERSON WITHIN SIX MONTHS OF BIRTH – OTHERWISE BY DNA TESTING

SUBMITTING FALSE INFORMATION TO A PASSPORT ISSUING AUTHORITY IS AN OFFENCE, AND ANY P.I.A. THAT INCLUDES FALSE INFORMATION ON A PASSPORT IS ALSO COMMITTING AN OFFENCE
.......................................................................
DEFRA regulations for Registration onto a Stud Book
If both the sire and dam of a horse are registered on a Stud Book, then it is automatically eligible for registration onto that Stud Book. The requirements for proof of breeding are the same as for a passport, as above. We cannot accept proof of breeding from another society unless that society has a DEFRA approved Stud Book. “

Texascbs you say above: -

“ I am sorry some feel the CBHSA registry is a "rival" to the CBHS stud book. I do not. If I lived in Australasia, I would register with both. I may not register immediately if the exchange rate seemed high at the time, but I would before the foal reaches breeding age.”

I have use the term “rival” in my earlier posts to mean that by establishing it’s own Stud Book / Part Bred Register in the full knowledge that the CBHS was already recognized as the international Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay horse breed that sets and maintains the eligibility conditions for horses to be registered as such that the CBHSA has created a situation where some people will choose to register their horses in it’s Stud Book instead of in the CBHS Stud Book. They are therefore competing with each other for people to register their horses in their respective Stud Books.

I mentioned earlier t how the RBST Watchlist is complied and in particular that it only included horses that are registered by the approved breed Society, in this case with the CBHS in it’s Stud Book. That Watchlist system is an internationally recognized and used one. If horses are registered in the CBHSA Stud Book and not in the CBHS Stud Book as pedigree Cleveland bay horses then they will not be counted in that internationally used Watchlist as pure Cleveland Bay horses.

If separate Stud Books/ Registers are set up that over time establish their own entry requirements that differ from the breed’s approved Stud Book holder’s eligibility requirements then there will be less recognized pure Cleveland bay horses around on a global basis.

Talking shell you say: -

“I have read the whole lot - all I can say is that please, please...try to find a unite way forward for the breed. This breed can't afford to let it die out.”

I agree with you. There is a way forward for the breed and that is for all people to get behind the CBHS and ensure that all Cleveland Bay horses are registered with it and entered into its Stud Book. I accept that horses CBHS passports could then be over stamped by other organizations if that was required to compete them in events that they put on.
 
John Patrick said:
I think that I am correct in saying that Talkingshell is a Committee member of the CBHSA.
Click to expand...

No...I aren't a Committee member of the CBHSA and haven't been for few years. However my horse is registered with CBHSA but I am not member.

John Patrick said:
Talking shell you say: -

“I have read the whole lot - all I can say is that please, please...try to find a unite way forward for the breed. This breed can't afford to let it die out.”

I agree with you. There is a way forward for the breed and that is for all people to get behind the CBHS and ensure that all Cleveland Bay horses are registered with it and entered into its Stud Book. I accept that horses CBHS passports could then be over stamped by other organizations if that was required to compete them in events that they put on.
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Glad to know you feel the same. Agreed with, I think it's most important for any of the Societies to be Pro-active and support it's members, give what the members want. That's where the $$$ and support comes in to PROMOTE the CB's. If you don't have that, then the Societies will get NOTHING out of it. Then the members will be disgruntled in wondering what their membership, etc goes in for. All this going on's are happening within the Cleveland Bay world today I believe. :o So we need to get behind and find a one unite for this breed and fly the CB flag any where in the World today.
 
John Patrick

I was a CBHS, CBHSNA, and CBHSA member at the same time for 10 years.

No organization is perfect and each has their internal issues they struggle with over the years.

Am aware of all the rules, regulations and polices posted.

If our goal help the breed thrive in the future, we must work together in a positive fashion and be inclusive to all worldwide equally.

I am off to road hounds with my CBHS registered purebred mare and stay and help with kennel chores. Hope everyone has good weather and health and can get out and spend time whether it be a good brush, a hack, a show, or a hunt with with your pure or partbred CB.
 
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Hello Talkingshell,

You say:-

" So we need to get behind and find a one unite for this breed and fly the CB flag any where in the World today."

Again I agree which is why I have said above that all Cleveland Bay breeders should get behind the CBHS and register their horses in it's Stud Book given that it is the internationally recognised Stud Book holder for the breed.

The CBHSNA have not thought it necessary for them to have to set up a rival Stud book so I don't know why it is necessary for the CBHSA to have done so inorder for people to " fly the CB flag anywhere in the World today".

There are far too few pure Cleveland Bay horses in the world today for it to be framgented up in this way. It needs all of them entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward.

Have you considered registering your horses with the CBHS and would you have done that already if the CBHSA didn't have its own Stud Book / Register for you to place them in instead?
 
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John Patrick said:
Again I agree which is why I have said above that all Cleveland Bay breeders should get behind the CBHS and register their horses in it's Stud Book given that it is the internationally recognised Stud Book holder for the breed.

The CBHSNA have not thought it necessary for them to have to set up a rival Stud book so I don't know why it is necessary for the CBHSA to have done so in order for people to "fly the CB flag anywhere in the World today".

There are far too few pure Cleveland Bay horses in the world today for it to be framgented up in this way. It needs all of them entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward.

Have you considered registering your horses with the CBHS and would you have done that already if the CBHSA didn't have its own Stud Book / Register for you to place them in instead?
Click to expand...

I can't say for the CBHSA, as this is in my own words and thoughts on the Cleveland Bays. And yes there are far few Purebreds, I've watched and it seems that purebred foals don't survive hence the reason for the decline? I don't know but this is the way I see it. I am not a breeder or have Purebreds. Well if CBHSA didn't have its own Stud Book/Register for me...my breeder would have referred me possibly to CBHS. But I don't have the need for it because my horse isn't pure but classed as CB Sporthorse being only 1/4 CB and the rest is Thoroughbred. Even I have another 50% CBx mare which we have on lease for my daughter to ride.

And YES I do agree with you - "Purebreds needs to be entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward" <----- 100% agree on this one! :)
 
Hello Talkingshell.

I am pleased that you say that:-

" "Purebreds needs to be entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward" <----- 100% agree on this one! "

I don't understand your comment though that pure bred foals don't survive and that is the reason for their decline. My experience so far in breeding pure Cleveland Bay horses is that the foals are as healthy as any other breed and do survive. The reasons why there are few pure Cleveland Bay horses on the ground at present are coplex but are not explained by the reason that you have suggested. Dr Andrew Dell's research report gives a good account of the reasons for their deline.

I wish you well with your horses and hope that you do decide at some point in the future to venture into the very enjoyable world of breeding pure Cleveland Bay horses.
 
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Dear JP
Having red the comments from Texascbs and Talking shell i feel they totally support the cleveland bay and would love to see it thrive

I believe all this nit picking on detail isnt helpful, if breeders in the USA and Australia are breeding cleveland bays thats fantastic news for the cleveland bay, it has already been said that their societies are working with the CBHS. Im sure they are aware of the breed standards so let them run their own studbooks they are all cleveland bays at the end of the day.
You may not realise that you come across as its the CBHS or nothing, you talk about working together but dont come over as flexible

The only difference this makes to the CB is its more difficult to keep figures accurate
please dont put people off breeding clevelands by making it more expensive
By the time youve paid stud fees,vets fees and day to day care of the mare and foal there isnt much left
who is to say the CBHS is the be all and end all for clevelands, keep it simple lets work together
 
harveysmom said:
Dear JP
Having red the comments from Texascbs and Talking shell i feel they totally support the cleveland bay and would love to see it thrive

I believe all this nit picking on detail isnt helpful, if breeders in the USA and Australia are breeding cleveland bays thats fantastic news for the cleveland bay, it has already been said that their societies are working with the CBHS. Im sure they are aware of the breed standards so let them run their own studbooks they are all cleveland bays at the end of the day.
You may not realise that you come across as its the CBHS or nothing, you talk about working together but dont come over as flexible

The only difference this makes to the CB is its more difficult to keep figures accurate
please dont put people off breeding clevelands by making it more expensive
By the time youve paid stud fees,vets fees and day to day care of the mare and foal there isnt much left
who is to say the CBHS is the be all and end all for clevelands, keep it simple lets work together
Click to expand...

Ditto harveysmom, 100% wholeheartly agree...yes let's keep it simple work together to make this Cleveland Bay beautiful!

John Patrick said:
Hello Talkingshell.

I don't understand your comment though that pure bred foals don't survive and that is the reason for their decline. My experience so far in breeding pure Cleveland Bay horses is that the foals are as healthy as any other breed and do survive. The reasons why there are few pure Cleveland Bay horses on the ground at present are coplex but are not explained by the reason that you have suggested. Dr Andrew Dell's research report gives a good account of the reasons for their deline.

I wish you well with your horses and hope that you do decide at some point in the future to venture into the very enjoyable world of breeding pure Cleveland Bay horses.
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Here in Australia...I have heard many have born weak, sick or born dead..may not be just pures but part bred too. Seeing it may not be just the Cleveland Bays but other breeds too. Only few have survived as a purebreds in Australia and even in New Zealand, it's very hard to breed a pure foal. When we heard amongst the Cleveland Bay people and hoped for the best there is a purebred foal on the ground alive and well...then we are all over the moon to keep this breed ALIVE!
No, not in the position to venture into pure CB's, simply because I cannot afford it and I aren't getting any younger being few years off 50. I just rather to enjoy my 25% CB Sporthorse and hope to one day achieve to Grand Prix dressage with him. And enjoy watching my daughter growing her love for her 50% leased mare to enjoy. And keeping the Cleveland Bays in our family.:)
 
Harveysmom I am not “nit picking ‘. My comment about the CBHS being the internationally recognized Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay breed is a matter of some substance and should not be dismissed as you have attempted to do. I don’t know if you are a member of the CBHS but if you are then you should be getting behind me to support it as legitimate Stud Book holder for the breed so that it can continue to work to preserve all pure Cleveland Bay horses on a global basis. Talking shell said in her earlier post that she agreed with me about that but based upon what she has said in support of your last post she has now apparently changed her mind?

The population of pure Cleveland horses is a small one and as the likes of Dr Andrew Dell and other respected commentators have said, it needs to be “managed” by the CBHS, the approved Stud Book holder for the breed under the same set of rules as one population if it is to thrive and not split up into smaller ones that will become more and more fragmented and different to each other over time.

The CBHSNA don’t have a Stud Book and as far as I am aware don’t have any plans to set one up. They encourage North American Cleveland Bay breeders to register their pure Cleveland Bay horses with the CBHS in it’ Stud Book. As I have said in my earlier posts they are working with the to preserve the Cleveland Bay breed.

That is in sharp contrast with the CBHSA that has set up a “rival “ Stud Book/ Register and Cleveland Bay breeders in Australasia are registering their pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses in that instead of with the CBHS. That can be seen by the fact that very few pure Cleveland Bay horses that have been born in Australasia in recent years have been registered in the CBHS Stud Book.

Whilst I accept that it is good news that people are breeding Cleveland Bay horses I would also point out that if they are not registered with the CBHS in the internationally recognized breed Stud Book that they are not regarded as pure Cleveland Bay horses until they are registered in it. That is not good news and could be easily avoided by breeders registering them in the breed Stud Book. The progeny of these unregistered horses will not be eligible to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book as pure Cleveland Bay horses and that situation could be easily avoided no by their breeders registering their pure Cleveland Bay horses in the CBHS Stud Book.

You say that: -

“ The only difference this makes to the CB is it’s more difficult to keep figures accurate.“ That is not so. It is simple to count up the small number of pure Cleveland Bay horses that are born each year. The real issue is that if these horses are not registered with the CBHS in its Stud Book they will effectively be lost to the pure breed Cleveland Bay breeding population in the future. Every breed Society Stud Book that you care to think about has a set of rules and regulations that govern the eligibility of horses to be entered into it. The CBHS is no different from any of the other Stud Books in that respect. If Cleveland Bay horses in Australasia are governed under a different set of rules and regulations to the ones in the CBHS Stud Book how does that benefit the pure Cleveland Bay breed?

Talkingshell, as I have already said if you seriously want to work together with the CBHS and not in opposition to it then don’t set up a “rival” Stud Book in Australasia for breeders to register the Cleveland Bay horses in but instead register them in the Cleveland Bay breed approved Stud Book that is managed by the CBHS.

Do you think that any other breed society would or should sit back and ignore the fact that another one has set up a rival arrangement to it for people to buy into instead of its one or to think that by setting up such a system in opposition to it that they would hold the view that such an action demonstrates that the second organisation was seriously seeking to it or to work positively with it?

Can you imagine any company in Australasia or elsewhere for that matter sitting back and saying or doing nothing if another company started to sell a product that was the same or similar to theirs? I don’t.

Talkingshell you say that: -

“ Here in Australia...I have heard many have born weak, sick or born dead..may not be just pures but part bred too. Seeing it may not be just the Cleveland Bays but other breeds too. Only few have survived as a purebreds in Australia and even in New Zealand, it's very hard to breed a pure foal. When we heard amongst the Cleveland Bay people and hoped for the best there is a purebred foal on the ground alive and well...then we are all over the moon to keep this breed ALIVE!”

There are not many pure Cleveland Bay horses in Australasia. Most of the Cleveland Bay horses there are part bred Cleveland Bay horses.

I have looked at the CBHSA website and individual breeders websites for some years now and have not noticed any posts on them about the problems that you state happen.

They don’t appear to happen here with the Cleveland Bay breed in the UK so I wonder if this is a management issue rather than a breed problem? I have certainly had no such problems breeding pure Cleveland bay horse and neither have other longstanding Cleveland Bay breeders that I have asked here that I have talked to about your observations.
 
John Patrick said:
Talking shell said in her earlier post that she agreed with me about that but based upon what she has said in support of your last post she has now apparently changed her mind?
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No I did not change my mind, as I simply just agreed with what I read. I am trying to be one united to everyone who clearly love and show support for the Cleveland Bay breed, not disagree to everything! If I don't think it's right I would try and make it right or understand more. By the way I suppose no one here knew I'm totally deaf (hearing impairment). So I don't talk the way hearing people do or write the way for e.g. you...you write more depth than me. I just skip reading as too hard for me to understand.


John Patrick said:
That is in sharp contrast with the CBHSA that has set up a “rival “ Stud Book/ Register and Cleveland Bay breeders in Australasia are registering their pure and part bred Cleveland Bay horses in that instead of with the CBHS. That can be seen by the fact that very few pure Cleveland Bay horses that have been born in Australasia in recent years have been registered in the CBHS Stud Book.

Talkingshell, as I have already said if you seriously want to work together with the CBHS and not in opposition to it then don’t set up a “rival” Stud Book in Australasia for breeders to register the Cleveland Bay horses in but instead register them in the Cleveland Bay breed approved Stud Book that is managed by the CBHS.
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You need to speak someone in the CBHSA to question why, as I don't know much about it but I vaguely remember that it was being discussed between CBHSA & CBHS and it was 'ok' to have one here...but don't quote me on this one, may not be right.

John Patrick said:
There are not many pure Cleveland Bay horses in Australasia. Most of the Cleveland Bay horses there are part bred Cleveland Bay horses.

I have looked at the CBHSA website and individual breeders websites for some years now and have not noticed any posts on them about the problems that you state happen.

They don’t appear to happen here with the Cleveland Bay breed in the UK so I wonder if this is a management issue rather than a breed problem? I have certainly had no such problems breeding pure Cleveland bay horse and neither have other longstanding Cleveland Bay breeders that I have asked here that I have talked to about your observations.
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Yes your correct that there aren't as many pure CB horses in Australasia and yes your right most are part bred (Sporthorses) CB horses, hell a lot more than Purebreds here.

And no one will state their disappointment on PUBLIC sites or by any means, as they would rather to keep it quiet. And start all over again in hoping for and to get the Purebreds to grow in numbers successfully.

By the way I do advocate Cleveland Bays as I have worked as CBHSA newsletter editor lady for good few years. Now I've started up a new newsletter just for Queensland state (nothing to do with CBHSA) with Cleveland Bay owners and am trying to get this word out there and support the breed.
 
I have been off this debate for a few days. We are thrilled to announce that 3 year old pure bred filly Highpasture Hattie arrived here on Thursday morning after a very tiring journey. She is now settled with two new friends one of which is our 3 year old filly Little Dorrit. That brings us to five pure bred and one part bred mares/fillies. I would have posted some photos on the Breeding forum but am having loads of trouble with Photobucket.

Welcome to the debate 'Shell' I think you have a stunning filly called Miss Independence? It would be lovely to see some more photos on this forum if I have got it right. I was interested in one of your comments.

"I can't say for the CBHSA, as this is in my own words and thoughts on the Cleveland Bays. And yes there are far few Purebreds, I've watched and it seems that purebred foals don't survive hence the reason for the decline?"

Do you know how how many foals are lost? In Australia do you conduct an audit? My problem with letters I received from protagonists of proposed changes to the grading register did not have any empirical data to support their reasons for change.

We lost a foal two years ago. Dam put in foal during first covering, she is always easy, blooming throughout pregnancy, easy foaling of a huge colt. He would not stand or suckle and had fluid in his lungs. Vets opinion, was without a doubt she had contracted a virus in late pregnancy, in spite of being vaccinated. Had I had a Shagya mare i/f at the same time no doubt we would have had the same result - not breed related.

The UK has closed its National Equine Database. France has one called SIRE, which is superb. All coverings are recorded on line; live births must be notified within 15 day; maternal deaths notified to the Department of Zoo technics.

CBHS is not in a position to even measure fertility rates for the breed. We do not collect robust data for the UK let alone worldwide basis.

My own opinion remains unchanged. We are not smart enough in conveying the benefits of owning a Cleveland Bay.

My husband in the UK collecting Hattie, was buying up Robinsons, and got chatting to the staff, TWO told him they had owned Cleveland Bays in the past both said, "The best horse I have ever owned." He stopped to let riders pass on a narrow lane in Kent, riders asked about his French plate and he told them he was taking a Cleveland Bay to France. One piped up "I had a Cleveland Bay once it was the best horse I ever owned".
 
Well done Rollin what a lovely filly you have in Hattie. I loved the look of Woodman You don't know what happened to him do you, I was told he went for a silly price at the sales.
 
Hello Talkingshell.

You said in your post above: -

&#8220;No I did not change my mind, as I simply just agreed with what I read. I am trying to be one united to everyone who clearly love and show support for the Cleveland Bay breed, not disagree to everything! If I don't think it's right I would try and make it right or understand more.&#8221;

You also said: -

&#8220;By the way I do advocate Cleveland Bays as I have worked as CBHSA newsletter editor lady for good few years. Now I've started up a new newsletter just for Queensland state (nothing to do with CBHSA) with Cleveland Bay owners and am trying to get this word out there and support the breed.&#8221;

You come across to me to be quite an articulate person who thinks about what they say before you put it down in print. I am sure that you will have had to have that skill to function as the editor of the CBHSA newsletter for as long as you say that you did and to do that it now for the Queensland state Cleveland Bay community.

You said in your post yesterday on 24-11-12 at 01:28PM in reply to one that I had put on the forum: -

&#8220;And YES I do agree with you - "Purebreds needs to be entered into the same Stud Book that is maintained by the recognised Breed Society under the same set of eligibility rules if the breed is going to be able to be preserved as a distinct one going forward" <----- 100% agree on this one!&#8221;

You then said in your next post on 24-11-12 at 10:42PM in support of Harveysmom post when she said to me: -

&#8220; I believe all this nit picking on detail isn&#8217;t helpful, if breeders in the USA and Australia are breeding cleveland bays thats fantastic news for the cleveland bay, it has already been said that their societies are working with the CBHS. Im sure they are aware of the breed standards so let them run their own studbooks they are all cleveland bays at the end of the day.
You may not realise that you come across as its the CBHS or nothing, you talk about working together but dont come over as flexible&#8221;

&#8220;Ditto harveysmom, 100% wholeheartly agree...yes let's keep it simple work together to make this Cleveland Bay beautiful! &#8220;

That is why I said in my post that: -

&#8220;Talkingshell said in her earlier post that she agreed with me about that but based upon what she has said in support of your last post she has now apparently changed her mind?&#8221;

In reply to your other comments the CBHS encourages Cleveland Bay breeders (wherever they are based to register their Cleveland Bay horses in it&#8217;s Stud Book rather than in another organisation's one so that the population of pure Cleveland Bay horses is maintained in the internationally recognised breed registry under the same set of entry rules and regulations.

You said in your last post today, 5-11-12 at 01:42 AM when I asked you why there is no evidence on the CBHSA website or on Australasian breeders individual websites to support your claim that &#8220;Here in Australia...I have heard many have born weak, sick or born dead..may not be just pures but part bred too. Seeing it may not be just the Cleveland Bays but other breeds too. Only few have survived as a purebreds in Australia and even in New Zealand, it's very hard to breed a pure foal.&#8221; that: -

&#8220;And no one will state their disappointment on PUBLIC sites or by any means, as they would rather to keep it quiet. And start all over again in hoping for and to get the Purebreds to grow in numbers successfully.&#8221;

Similar claims were made here in the UK by advocates of the grade register changes but when people like myself and Rollin asked them to provide evidence to support those claims they could not do so. Indeed a number of breeders came out to state that they had never experienced any such problems with their horses over many years of breeding both pure and part bred Cleveland Bays.

It does no good for the Cleveland Bay breed&#8217;s good reputation if people keep on making such ill founded claims without first having the evidence to back them up.
 
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Dear JP, I am a member of CBHS and as such recognise that the society is the internationally recognised breed society

However, just as an example the americans and the austalians have their own governments do you believe the british government should be telling them how to run their countries as once upon a time they where under british rule, i dont think so, and i do wish you would stop using the term rival they are on our side trying to help the cleveland bay.
THEIR breed societies are co-operating with ours what is your problem
being entered in their studbook should be as good as ours,and to make sure we all sing from the same hymm book there should a policy in place which allow council members to take part in eachothers meetings, i repeat that they are aware of the breed standards, quite a few of our pure stallions are exported to the USA so i believe they are keeping their gene pool healthy with new blood and introducing horses that conform to CBHS rules and standards which ultimatly means they are not drifting away changing the breed, we could do with importing some of their stock to mingle with ours
that would be a close match and not introducing outside blood it would be pure cleveland

Be careful not to become a control freak you will drive people away
 
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Dear Rollin,
congratulations on your new filly i hope she does you well

Looks like you get the same response from people that i do when you mention cleveland bays " i used to own/ride one " the trouble with that is it is past tense we need the " i am looking to buy one do you know of one " or better still "ive got one"
I do agree with you, it does seem to be that promoting the cleveland bay is very low on some peoples lists.
Im sure you would understand that the reason some large breeders are giving up is they cant make any money in clevelands at the moment, there is a need to breed more i understand that totally, but if i bought every mare able to breed a foal and they all produced a live foal what would i do with all those foals
perhaps JP could explain that one
 
Why don't the CBHS ask that all pure mares that use a pure stallion report the birth of the foal dead or alive to CBHS. This could be a requirement for Grants and premium.
 
Hello Harveysmom.

I am pleased that you are a member of the CBHS and that you &#8220; recognize that the society is the internationally recognized breed society.&#8221;

I don&#8217;t see the logic behind the example that you have cited in your post concerning the fact that both American&#8217;s and Australian&#8217;s have their own governments?

To answer your question I don&#8217;t believe that the British government should be telling either the American or the Australian or New Zealand governments how they should run their countries because they once came under British rule.

But to put the example that you have used into a more appropriate context I don&#8217;t want the situation to emerge in the future that as a result of the CBHSA setting up it&#8217;s own Stud Book for Cleveland Bay horses to be registered in instead of them being registered in the CBHS internationally approved Cleveland Bay Breed Stud Book that the Society will loose the rights that it now enjoys to set the rules and regulations that determine what a Cleveland Bay horse is on a global basis.

You risk the situation arising over the course of time where the CBHSA set it&#8217;s own quite different set of rules and regulations to those of the CBHS Stud Book to manage it&#8217;s separate Stud Book and horses that qualify to be entered into the CBHSA Stud Book will cease to be eligible to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book. That will split the breed population up unnecessarily. I think that the CBHSA should do as the CBHSNA has done and encourage breeders to register their horses in the CBHS Stud Book which is after all the Breeds legitimate Stud Book and to not have their own rival one that will encourage some people to put their horses in it instead.

With all due respect can I turn the question back to you? Why does the CBHSA feel that it is necessary for them to have their own Stud Book for people to register Cleveland Bay horses in instead of in the CBHS Stud Book, if as you say they are working with and supporting the CBHS? It would surely show far more support for the CBHS, that they are not affiliated with in any way if they had not set up their own rival Stud Book.

My problem is quite simple few Pure Cleveland Bay foals are being registered with the CBHS from either Australasia or from North America. That is not good for the breed going forward.

To take your example about the government analogy a bit further you will no doubt have noticed that each country&#8217;s government has in acted a completely different set of laws and regulations that apply to their citizens to the ones that apply to the people in either of the other two countries. That is precisely what will happen if different breed Societies set up in each country where Cleveland Bay horses are exported to and bred. With such a small global Cleveland Bay horse population on the ground what is the sense of either encouraging or allowing that situation to arise? I don&#8217;t see any other breed Societies operating in that way so why should the CBHS?

I accept that mares and some stallions have been exported to both Australasia and to North America but they been registered with and licensed as stallions for breeding purposes by the CBHS. If horses are not registered with the CBHS and licensed by it for breeding purposes then they and their progeny will not be eligible in the future to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book. That is what I want to avoid happening.

Every breed Society has a set of rules and regulations that determine whether or not animals qualify to be entered into it and classed as pedigree animals. You say that I should be careful not to become a control freak or I will drive people away. The real danger for the breed is that if the horses are not managed under the control of the CBHS Stud Book rules and regulations that all other Cleveland Bay horses are to be entitled to be called pure Cleveland Bay horses then the ones in Australasia that are not registered with the CBHS will loose the right to be called pure Cleveland Bay horses in the future.

Harveysmom, with so few Cleveland Bay foals being born and registered I find it amazing that people like you keep on asserting that it is difficult to sell them? Why ever did you or anyone else for that matter buy one in the first place if they are such bad horses? If some people stopped continually running them down then I am sure that the people who do find it difficult to sell their horses will not do so in the future.
 
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Welly said:
Why don't the CBHS ask that all pure mares that use a pure stallion report the birth of the foal dead or alive to CBHS. This could be a requirement for Grants and premium.
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I agree with you, in fact if we used the French system of on-line reporting we could also collect fertility data. I understand that where stallions are run with mares there is no accurate data on coverings and conception which would make this difficult.

Breeders outside the UK get no financial incentives. In addition overseas members are charged higher membership fees and in contravention of EU Laws on discrimination CBHS registered a new 'article' in 2011 excluding non-UK residents from the Council.

The insistence that hair samples are sent to AHT for DNA testing is another cost. DNA tests for my Shagya's are done, using blood, through the National Stud and cost 41 euros.

I agree with the poster from Texas, I am sure there are many pure bred Cleveland Bays never registered with CBHS. For example, I know that four pure bred mares were sold to France by members of Council (2005/2006). No transfers have ever been recorded for these four mares non of them were ever registered in France. One gave birth to a colt in France, now four years old, who is also not registered on the SIRE database or in the stud book.

This mare was whisked back to Yorkshire for her second foaling. We do not know the whereabouts of the Knaresborough fillies now of breeding age. We have put posts on the Total France forum with no success.

The first Cleveland Bay we ever considered buying was a gelding, unregistered, by Mulgrave Royal out of Blackhall Lady Zara, they had many foals and only one was ever registered. An unregistered stallion stood at Ormiston Stud on Speyside for many years and produced many part bred foals. I am certain he was a son of MR and Lady Zara.

Two years ago a friend was looking for a Cleveland Bay and found 3 or 4 for sale in the south of England, again not registered.
 
Hello Rollin.

Congratulations on acquiring Highpasture Hattie. She should make a good addition to your growing band of pure Cleveland Bay horses and compliment your stallion, Afondale Highlander. I look forward to hearing from you in due course that she is in foal to him and that a healthy foal results that will be registered with the CBHS in its Stud Book.

I note your comment about the number of pure Cleveland Bay horses that you state haven&#8217;t been registered with the CBHS over the years here in the UK and elsewhere. Any Cleveland Bay horse that is not registered with it in the CBHS Stud Book is a loss to the breeding population going forward. With so few of them on the ground at present that can&#8217;t be good for the breed&#8217;s survival. If they meet the Society's eligibility conditions to be entered into the CBHS Stud Book then I would urge their breeders to put them forward to be entered into it.

I am mindful that the horses that you refer to in your post as having been exported from the UK to France have in fact been registered as pure Cleveland Bay horses in the CBHS Stud Book in advance of them going over there. I accept that the transfer of ownership details haven&#8217;t been registered for them but it is the responsibility of the buyer and not the seller to do that. I suspect that some of them may not be members of the CBHS.

As you know from our previous communications on the subject I have argued very strongly if favor of the Society getting rid of the condition that a member has to be ordinarily resident in the UK to be able to stand for a seat on the Council. I also voted to have that condition removed from the Society&#8217;s Articles Of Association at the last Annual General Meeting and still hope that it will be removed as soon as is possible. I am aware that the Defra audit of the Society as a Stud Book holder recommended to the Council that they remove that condition from it&#8217;s governing documents which is why it was put to the membership at the last AGM.

The fact that the Society has and will no doubt make some questionable decisions in the future does not detract from that reality that it is the international recognized Stud Book holder for the Cleveland Bay horse breed and as such all horses need to be registered in it to be recognized as pedigree Cleveland Bay horses. That is a &#8220;no brainer &#8220; to me and I fail to see why some other people seem to be oblivious to that important point?
 
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John Patrick,

We are delighted with Hattie, with is very sweet tempered and was as good as gold during the journey. She is a good mate for our stallion but we won't be covering her next year. She will be backed and schooled, possibly do her first endurance in July or September and put in foal in 2014.

Transfers. You might be interested to know that one of the Welsh Pony Breeder's in France actually pays the fees for transfer of ownership and helps new owners, she then checks that transfers have been done. It worries me that when pure bred mares are sold they are lost. I would want to stay in touch with with anyone who purchased one of my horses.

I believe that DEFRA told the society to change the articles. I don't know how well that was explained to the members. It is embarassing for DEFRA as they should up hold policies on 'non-discrimination' particularly as there is a formal complaint lodged with the EU.
 
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