Clicker training.....I should know this :(

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gunnergundog

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Feeling a bit brain dead and frustrated......adolescent demon dog is at the stage whereby whenever I pick up a clicker he goes off into his little routine at 90mph offering all the behaviours he knows without anything being cued.

If I ignore he just continues repeating his repertoire again and again and again and then eventually in frustration starts barking. If in the middle of one of his performances I give him, say a visual cue to sit, he sits, I click/treat and then he moves straight back into his routine! Aggggghhhhhhh!

If I try and slow everything down he just gets faster and faster and faster. Have tried ending the session and putting clicker away but message aint getting through.

Free shaping has gone for a burton too. :(

How do I break his little routine and gain focus? I have a watch me cue, but as soon as I click he goes off offering something else...
 
Leave the room then he won't have an audience to play to. Only go back in when he is calm. Have to say though, sounds like you have done a really good job in teaching him this so will take a few repetitions.
 
If I put the clicker down and walk away he will try and follow me for a bit doing attention seeking things - namely, parts of his routine again. If I continue to ignore he will eventually give up but as soon as I pick up the clicker off we go again.

Have tried not using a clicker and just using a verbal marker (click of tongue) but I am still getting the same unwanted offering of uncued behaviours.
 
padderpaws said:
Leave the room then he won't have an audience to play to. Only go back in when he is calm. Have to say though, sounds like you have done a really good job in teaching him this so will take a few repetitions.
Click to expand...

Yeh, I know....I think it all started when I back-chained the retrieve and now he thinks everything has to be chained. :mad:
 
I'm no clicker training expert, its not something I even use for my own dogs so I cant help much I'm afraid. I was thinking of some very breed specific traits that may have been worth taking from another angle if it was the vizz as they just dont respond to the norm! Having said that I have seen dogs do as you describe. I would personally abandon clicker and treats! Have you actually tried the simple tactic of a harsh 'NO' when he starts his routine with no correct cue?!
 
OK....to give you the full picture this was a very hard hunting dog that was harsh handled and e-collared; it came to me at 11 months (!) and is now 18 months old.

I went down the clicker route with this dog as I thought it would be something totally different to what it had experienced so far in life and may make things easier......for both of us! The dog is desperate to please.....or at least that is my interpretation of the routine of behaviours. If I do anything 'harsh'....hard voice or body languaage, the dog just shuts down on me.
 
He obviously wants to please I agree. You dont have to be harsh, I would if the clicker is the only way for this dog be for example cuing 'sit'....at this point he sits? click treat really quickly....he then goes into routine yes? So harsh 'NO' and repeat the sit cue immediately, again click and treat. I would be doing this for ages....only ask for sit right now, dont let him think you are going to ask for anything else other than sit until he stops routining, then add in down or something and do the same thing but predominantly ask down for ages with only an occasional sit so the cue is drummed in more than anything else. Or do a session of sits then a session of downs etc etc so the cue is the most important thing before anything is ever asked for in succession. As I said no clicker expert AT ALL but I dont believe that with a dog thats doing this and not listening attentively for a cue can just be ignored until he gets it right, he sounds pretty frustrated by it, he wants to get it right but hes unclear when hes getting it wrong.
 
I am a bit confused so bear with me and apologies in advance but what exactly is the problem? In clicker trainer the dog is supposed to offer behaviour so he is doing exactly what he should be doing. A dog who offers behaviour is a hundred times easier to train than one that does not.

For example, my female Spitz does NOTHING unless you cue her so we have spent hours silently staring into each other's eyes getting nowhere! My male Spitz does exactly what you describe, he goes through his repertoire trying out things to see what you want. Any time he is vaguely in the right direction I click, reward and he repeats; we build up from there. When teaching new things you are only suppose to lure or cue them into the behaviour 3-4 times, after that you have to wait for the dog to offer the behaviour and resist the urge to help them along.

That is how I understand clicker at least! :)
 
thats how understand it too but if hes routining behaviours at a hundred miles an hour in an overzealous attempt to get the correct one without actually listening for any cue then surely thats pretty undesirable!? This is why I dont clicker train...I have patience a plenty but not by the arctic load I'm afraid, I admire those devoted to it and I think its a valuable tool but I couldnt use it as my only method.

saying that, this summers dog related goal (after gundog training my female PRT last summer) is to do something with the ejit of a male PRT...I wont be gundog training him but am going to try a clicker with him as he's next to retarded with all other methods previously tried! He's a thick showdog/pet through and through, I think I'm going to teach him a load of useless random tricks so he has a 'thing' and doesnt let the side down by being so blatently dumb, even if its not useful! LOL
 
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Booboos said:
I am a bit confused so bear with me and apologies in advance but what exactly is the problem? In clicker trainer the dog is supposed to offer behaviour so he is doing exactly what he should be doing. A dog who offers behaviour is a hundred times easier to train than one that does not.

For example, my female Spitz does NOTHING unless you cue her so we have spent hours silently staring into each other's eyes getting nowhere! My male Spitz does exactly what you describe, he goes through his repertoire trying out things to see what you want. Any time he is vaguely in the right direction I click, reward and he repeats; we build up from there. When teaching new things you are only suppose to lure or cue them into the behaviour 3-4 times, after that you have to wait for the dog to offer the behaviour and resist the urge to help them along.

That is how I understand clicker at least! :)
Click to expand...

My understanding (up for debate!! :)) is that the dog offers the behaviour in free-shaping; it is then 'captured' and put on a cue....be it visual/verbal or whatever. Once captured it is my understanding that the dog should only be rewarded for a behaviour that is then cued. This is where everything (in my view) is falling apart as boyo is just going into a routine of uncued behaviours like a lucky dip but without any cues. So, in rapid succession, he sits, downs, rolls on side, up-sits, offers one paw, then the other, stands, spins, turns a circle in the opposite direction, jumps up with paws on my chest.

I think he is too quick and miles ahead of me in this game! :D I suspect my timing leaves a lot to be desired, but am sure there is a way to crack this.

May have to try and book a session with Helen Phillips if noone here can help me......please?? Maybe I've got wrong expectations....of clicker training that is .
 
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Please keep the suggestions coming....am not a clicker evangelist but have just dabbled in the past with odd problems and thought it could help with this particular dog with which I was struggling.

A bottle of red wine is calling (has been a LONG day!) so I may not pick up on your ideas until tomorrow sometime....don't think I'm ignoring them!

Tx in advance! :D
 
Hi, notice you mention Helen Phillips - would definitely book a session with her if you can as she is excellent and will help no end, I am sure.

I have done some CT at Kay Laurence's and one of the first things she had us teach the dogs was a default behaviour - ie, in the absence of a given cue the dogs could either stand or sit but simply be passive and not "throw" behaviours at the trainers. Initially this behaviour (the default/be passive) was reinforced a lot - so the dog would get several clicks and treats for being passive and then a cue would be given which the dog could respond to in order to earn a click and treat. Then the dog would be reinforced for being passive until the next cue - obviously you would build duration in this and put it on a VSR over time - however to begin with it might be that you have to use a lot of reinforcement to explain to your dog that he doesn't need to randomly throw behaviours at you. So basically you are teaching your dog that doing "nothing" in the absence of a cue is required - it helps if you adopt a relaxed body posture so that in itself is a cue to the dog that nothing is going to happen just then.

The other thing to think about is to ensure that you are "finishing" behaviours - ie, getting them up to the required standard and putting them on the final cue. Then, once they are on cue they should only be rewarded when cued - brought under stimulus control. Anything not cued is ignored always. If your dog is motoring through a specific repertiore, it may be worth teaching some completely new, very simple stuff - have you done targetting, hand targets, various attention exercises etc - and then cueing these new, simple exercises, interspersed with a passive default behaviour on a very high rate of reinforcement. Leave your original stuff for the moment until the dog is calmer and you are getting more behaviours under stimulus control. However, I do think that if the dog is getting very confused and frustrated a one to one with Helen or Kay will put you back on track. Something else to consider is the kind of treat you are using - very tasty treats can send some dogs OTT - maybe your treats need to be not so nice?

I think it is very common for novice CT animals to get carried away and start offering lots of behaviours - it's a bonus about CT and definitely not something that should be suppressed - just channelled! The dog can never do "nothing" - even when he is standing still he is doing something, so it is just as important to teach that behaviour as anything else.
 
Put him away or wait for him to calm down. My young dog has not been e-collared or harshly handled but he is very hectic and like this one, offers up behaviours. The only thing I can do, (correcting him can activate him and make him more hyper) is put him back in the van or the kennel or just wait until he calms down. If that means standing for 20-30 minues until he is quiet and looking at me (as was told to me tonight) then that is what I have to do.

I am phasing out the clicker at the moment because my timing is better and I am relaxing more. I relax, he is calmer. When I get stressed and frustrated, he gets gobby and pissy.
Things like changing the clicker shape, colour might help as well, we were getting very hectic with the dumbbell, when he saw it come out he would think FOOOD! WOOOOOWWWW! and get all mad.
Bought a wooden one now which looks completely different and is a different colour so the cue is new.

I had a session with mirrors earlier on this evening and it showed me a lot of what I was doing wrong in terms of body language, tensing up, sending him signals, and it physically showed me 'bloody hell, I DO turn my body to the left too much, bloody hell, of course he is going to pre-empt me when my hand is there'.
 
I was going to ask the same as tess, sometimes this kind of behaviour can happen when each behaviour has not been quite finished and put to a cue. I do wonder as well whether sometimes when working with rescues who have had bad relatonships with people, when they suddenly realise they can try stuff out for themselves they go a bit mad with the power!!

When Horus does it I just stand and wait until he goes into default sit and pays attention. If he persistently goes mad when I start moving again then I leave it for that day and come back to it. Sometimes it is better working after he has been fed, so the food incentive isn't quite as great.

Alternatievly, change the subject completely and do some freeshaping with a prop such as a box. That way he gets to offer you behaviour which he is obviously keen to do, but has to work with an object so can't just throw anything at you. You might have to start by clicking just a look at the box until he gets the hang of working with it (especially if you have never done this kind of stuff before) or possibly throwing a few treats into the box to encourage him to touch it or be interested, but he should enjoy exploring it. You don't need an aim in mind, just see what he comes up with and what you like the look of, and go with it. You can change the aim with each session. If that gets him focussing, then every so often you could walk away from the box ad ask for cued behaviour once or twice, and then move back to the box before he gets chance to throw stuff at you again. Does that make any sense?

But if you have the opportunity to work with someone then go for it, often we do silly things that someone else will pick up on. Most of all, chill!! If it gets you too frustrated then just put the clicker away for a week or two, find something else to play, and come back to it fresh.
 
From what you say what he is doing is exactly what he should be doing. Offering behaviours, usually going through the whole repertoire of everything he knows WITHOUT a cue, is what he should be doing. Of course each person interprets the training to suit them and their dog but the way I was taught was:

- regarding cues: I was taught not to give any cues whatsoever until the behaviour was 100% establised. That means, for example, you lure into a sit, click, reward - repeat three times - then wait. If necessary wait forever...when the sit materialises click and jackpot reward - then wait - until the next sit - then wait. Repeat this over a few weeks. If you can finally lure once and then get repeated sits offered with no cue, it's time to introduce the cue, but you introduce it at the same time as the behaviour - you are naming the behaviour and basically associating the word with the cue. If you say the cue and the dog goes to its repertoire of behaviours then it does not know the cue and you should go back a step.

- when the dog offers the repertoire of behaviour you have behaviours to work with. Pick the one you can shape into what you want and click it. For example, dog is sitting, standing, backing up, barking, targeting and back to sitting. You want to teach roll over, so to start off with click the sit as a way to a down as a way to a sideways down, as a way to a legs in the air, etc.

- the dog is offering behaviour but it's not the one you want, say "try again", fold your arms, turn your back to the dog for 3 secs, then return and wait again (personally I do not use my 'stop that immediately' word (for me it's 'uh ah' but it could be 'no' for someone else) to stop this behaviour because you don't really want the dog to stop giving you behaviours you just want him to give you a different one).

Try "Go Click!" by Elizabeth Kershaw. I was trained by her and found her to be very clear and helpful.

I have spent endless hours to get Betty to offer behaviour like (mad) Jakey, so really you have a very good thing there! You can work with behaviour! It's very difficult to work with a dog that does a 3 hour long sit stay!
 
Booboos, it can be just as difficult to work with a dog who goes through his whole repertoire at high speed as it is to work with one who gives you nothing! Yes, they are offering things, but at speed it is impossible to click anything constructively because they have moved on before you have even had chance to acknowledge the behaviour, let along chance to click it.

Plus if those behaviours should be on cue then you want them to be thinking of new things which they won't if they don't realise that doing the same thing over and over is not what you are looking for any more.
 
I can't really say much other than to re-iterate that Jakey goes INSANE not only the moment he sees the clicker but also if you happen to walk towards the cupboard where the clicker is kept! Now he is older you only have to give him a 'meaningful' glance and he goes into his routine. His routine is extremely fast and varied, if you ignore him he adds new things to it (usually in the shape of targeting, he looks around the room and then goes to touch anything that sticks out in the hopes that this is the right thing). To me this behaviour says 'what do you want? what do you want? WHAT DO YOU WANT?' and if you ignore it you are effectively answering 'nothing'.

There is certainly a point in learning to click really fast, it's not an easy skill and many people find it quite challenging. It's can also be challenging to click the right thing. We used to do the following at our dog training club: 'trainer' picks a behaviour randomnly and another person plays the role of the 'dog', the 'trainer' clicks as normal to shape the 'dog's' behaviour and everyone watches (not knowing what behaviour the trainer is going for). It is interesting to see how many 'trainers' click too late, for the wrong things, etc. thus thoroughly confusing their 'dog'. It's a good way of seeing the whole thing from the dog's perspective.

You develop new behaviours through shaping and it's perfectly fine to start with known behaviours. You also get known behaviours to become faster or longer by working on them, so there is no problem with the dog offering known behaviours.

Having said all that if another approach works for you then that's brilliant! :)
 
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Yep, I agree, but if someone is stuck and isn't getting any new behaviours then either the timing isn't quite right or the partnership need to take a break or change the subject and come back to it later. It is so hard to actually help someone with clicker work without seeing them in action, so I was just trying to throw some ideas out there - I like to have as many ideas as possible thrown at me and then I can weed out the ones that are appropriate and work for us!

I love doing that human clicker training - the first time I did it I was "trained" to sit it the boot of a car scratching my head!!!:D
 
Hi Booboos/Dollyanna, Tess & CC
Tx v much for your suggestions and comments.:)

I will definately look at that book that you recommended BB.

Am going to take CC's advice in the short term and give myself and demon dog a break from clicker, pending getting a session with Helen Phillips but I have a nasty suspicion she's off to the USA shortly so not sure when that will be. :mad:

To explain, I come from the Kay Laurence/Helen Phillips school of clicker training from about eight years ago.....at that time we weren't taught to teach a default behaviour, so I guess things have moved on. Or at least, to qualify, we weren't taught that for CAP 1,2 or 3. However, it does make sense. 'Fraid I ducked out of clicker training at that stage as I THOUGHT (ha ha!) that I had enough knowledge for my purposes at that time!

I normally sit down if I want to free-shape a dog....in other words, get him to offer behaviours or interact with an object.

If I want to do cued work, then I stand. I only ask for behaviours that have been finished and put on at least one cue in that environment....I use, visual, verbal and whistle cues with all my dogs and will often have three different commands/cues for the same behaviour.

Demon dog started doing his little repertoire when I stand, but has now started also doing it if I sit, which is why I said free shaping had gone out of the window in an earlier post. May try and find him something he hasn't seen before and do a last ditch attempt at free shaping. Maybe what I'm doing is too boring/repetitive and I need to move it on a bit????

Anyway, thanks again for all your suggestions and help.
 
I hope OP doesn't mind me answering. In response to Ester's question:

When a dog knows a behaviour you give the cue and he offers the behaviour, however before this stage giving the cue is at best useless, at worst confusing. Consider this:

Suppose I say to you: "Katse", you say "Excuse me?", and I say "Katse, katse, katse!!" now you can tell I want something, maybe of you but you have no idea what it is. I now say "KATSE" and stomp my foot, at which point you still have no idea what I want but it's evident I am pissed off so you try to run away. And I get even more pissed off "KATSE KATSE KATSE EIPA!!!!"

Giving cues to a dog that doesn't know the behaviour is like giving commands to someone in Greek who does not speak the language - pointless. All you communicate is your frustration. You need to first establish the behaviour, associate it with the reward and when you are consistently getting the behaviour you add the cue. Once the cue is associated with the behaviour consistently then you can say the cue (or do the cue) and get the behaviour.

One of the most helpful things I was told when training was "You get what you name". So if you name a very slow and reluctant sit a "sit", everytime you say "sit" you get a slow and reluctant response.
 
Everything Booboos said plus.....

A lot of dogs thrive on being given the opportunity to use their brain to work things out. It is great for dogs who are already highly intelligent but don't have an outlet for it - collies, shepherds, terriers, in fact most working breeds who can't fulfill the purpose for which they are bred in a modern life.

For me it was the key to turning a terrified and "aggressive" deaf rescue dog who I couldn't touch in any way and was scared of hand movements into a very happy little chappy who knows more signs than I can remember and trust me implicitly! By clicking anything at all to begin with, and keeping it really easy with a high rate of reward, I was able to build his confidence in himself and his trust in me without ever making contact or having any reason to be negative in any way. You can make it as easy or as hard as you want or need it to be. I also do almost everything as freeshaping because luring does not work at all with my boy, he needs to see my hands at all times to see what I am asking, so luring him just confuses him, and if I made any attempt to shape him by moving his legs for example, he would just give me the "just talk to me" look.

So it is an excellent way of building self-confidence and trust as well, especially if you have no aim - you can make it so the dog is never wrong and never gets told off, and it is amazing to watch them realise they can do it!

BTW, before anyone asks I use a sign, keyring torch or rarely a vibe collar as my clicker - usually the torch.
 
Anything you can think of or that the dog comes up with!!

Things I can think of to do with a wooden block.....
stand on it, all four feet, front feet, back feet or just one foot.
nose touch it
push it (forwards with nose or backwards with legs)
sit on it
spin round it
jump over it
retrieve it
place something else on it
roll it over

All depends on the size of the block and the size of your dog of course, but that's a few ideas.

There is a game called 101 things to do with a box, where basically you come up with as many things as you can possibly think of to do with a box of any size.

Clicker training doesn't always have to be with a definite aim or end point in mind, the action of doing clickerwork can help a lot with the bond and mental stimulation for the dog.
 
dollyanna said:
Anything you can think of or that the dog comes up with!!

Things I can think of to do with a wooden block.....
stand on it, all four feet, front feet, back feet or just one foot.
nose touch it
push it (forwards with nose or backwards with legs)
sit on it
spin round it
jump over it
retrieve it
place something else on it
roll it over

All depends on the size of the block and the size of your dog of course, but that's a few ideas.

There is a game called 101 things to do with a box, where basically you come up with as many things as you can possibly think of to do with a box of any size.

Clicker training doesn't always have to be with a definite aim or end point in mind, the action of doing clickerwork can help a lot with the bond and mental stimulation for the dog.
Click to expand...

Very aware of that. I have been clicker training for quite some time.

I imagine it will be easier to give the OP suggestions to get past the problem behavior if we can give specifics hence i asked what he would like the end behavior to be.

As for the block it was a suggestion for the OP to try to see if the dog will get past his manic behavior throwing when he has something other than the treat to focus on.
 
I've been thinking about this some more, along the same lines as soloabe. What would happen if you introduced a new targeting object close to his face? Most dogs would at least look at it if not touch it and if he does that you can click and work on that behaviour. Might be worth a try!
 
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