Clipped out porker horse and no rugs -cruel?

[amandap]

OP said a chaser clip...

Fair enough. Doesn't a chaser clip remove a good chunk of neck hair?
I still think managing weight loss with diet and exercize is preferable.
Soaking hay is imo a very important part so calories are reduced without restricting the amount of forage so much that there is a risk of colic etc.
A good walk has, I believe, been shown to use more calories than faster work. Also, if the horse is very overweight faster work will strain the whole body, work needs to be built up gradually to build up fitness, especially in a companion horse.
Just my opinion of course. Weight loss takes time, hard work and dedication in my experience.

Some ideas on here might be useful. http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/information/right_weight_advice

 

[ester]

I'm quite surprised at some peoples opinions on this thread
I don't think that 3 sections of hay is that much overnight for a horse of normal weight as some seem to be implying , both of mine get that including the pony. However if yours really is that fat then I would be reducing and soaking.

2) I like clipping and not rugging, in fact I do it all year round though that is mostly because Frank is a fluff in the summer. If he wants to get warm when out in the field he can give himself some exercise, someone said how cold they would have to get to shiver weight off.. they dont have to 'shiver' weight off, their metabolism produces heat and you are just upping the rate at which they use their fat store to do this and if they are outside they are pretty good at warming themselves up if necessary. I often think it is underused. Interesting to hear that the vet mentioned it.

I always keep rugging to a minimum because Frank gets scabby if too warm.

The op has also only chaser clipped, assuming this is of normal height this horse still has all of its back and bum on at the very least and hence most of its waterproofing too as those are the bits that get wet.

However OP, I do think that haffies were never designed to be companions and I would be surprised if you could get this pony to a sensible weight without work.

amandap, this is what my chaser clip looks like stock photo. so not a lot of hair removed really, as a haffie I am guessing copious mane too!

 

[noblesteed]

If it's any help I just read the 'Feeding' supplement that came free with BHS magazine.
It states overweight horses should have 1.5% of their bodyweight in forage. So you should be able to work out a suitable hay ration from that.

Now I own a fatty, I weight taped him at 511 kg. SO he should be eating 7.5kg forage per 24 hours. If he is IN for 12 hours that would be 3.75 kg. HOWEVER as someone on here pointed out he probably eats more than 3.75 kg grass while he is out. So I am not giving him 3.75 kg hay - that would be about 2 slices and TOO MUCH. SO your 3 is WAY over.

As I have had amy horse a few years I can safely say he does NOT become miserable, sick or sorry in winter. He is clipped, unrugged in stable at night and wears a summer turnout unless it is snowing. He is out unmuzzled during the day ( as opposed to summer out 24 hours in a greenguard). At night he is given about 1.5 slices of last year's hay soaked for 8 hours. He gets D & H Equibites to supplement this instead of a proper bucket feed. He can only be ridden at weekends due to not having floodlights so this is the best I can do. I am NOT CRUEL, my horse is happy, healthy, loves his work, although STILL slightly porky even on that regime.

Looking at the photo above mine has the same clip as that

Some horses are just good doers, it's as simple as that. It's much harder getting weight off a fatty than people who DON"T have fatties realise. SO take off those rugs and cut down on the hay. If she eats her stable then give her something else to do, cribbing is a vice. You could get her a snack ball and put some VERY low calorie high fibre cubes in? (but cut her hay to compensate) SOmeone on here suggested mixing oat straw in with the hay as it's much lower in calories, to bulk it out.

 

[galaxy]

I'm quite surprised at some peoples opinions on this thread
I don't think that 3 sections of hay is that much overnight for a horse of normal weight as some seem to be implying , both of mine get that including the pony. However if yours really is that fat then I would be reducing and soaking.

I don't know what a Haffie would weigh tape, but if I'm generous and say 450kgs then 2% which should be the ponies total intake over 24hrs would be 9kgs. I would guess that 3 sections of hay prob weighs more than that by itself... (my 2 and a bit sections weigh between 7 and 8 kgs) and that amount should be over 24 hrs, not just overnight. Feed companies recommend that if a horse is on a diet they should only get 1.5% of their body wieght, therefore even less.

There was a good free booklet that came with the latest British horse magaizine.

 

[galaxy]

If it's any help I just read the 'Feeding' supplement that came free with BHS magazine.
It states overweight horses should have 1.5% of their bodyweight in forage. So you should be able to work out a suitable hay ration from that.

lol. cross posted quoting the same thing!

 

[amandap]

amandap, this is what my chaser clip looks like stock photo. so not a lot of hair removed really, as a haffie I am guessing copious mane too!

The ones I've seen are much higher on the neck and part of the head clipped too.
I do forget that here the weather is very changeable with lots of heavy rain and wind, I see you and the op are in the far south of UK.

I must say I wouldn't like to see a horse shivering to loose weight. Horses shiver when body temperature has dropped low and if conditions don't improve it could lead to hypothermia surely.

 

[ester]

I don't know what a Haffie would weigh tape, but if I'm generous and say 450kgs then 2% which should be the ponies total intake over 24hrs would be 9kgs. I would guess that 3 sections of hay prob weighs more than that by itself... (my 2 and a bit sections weigh between 7 and 8 kgs) and that amount should be over 24 hrs, not just overnight. Feed companies recommend that if a horse is on a diet they should only get 1.5% of their body wieght, therefore even less.

There was a good free booklet that came with the latest British horse magaizine.

I reckon we must have light hay or it is rubbish way of measuring! I do actually feed by weight, and they have between 12 and 16 pounds overnight (5pm-7am).. dependent on the cold! I had to do a google conversion to kilos! 12 pounds is 5.5 kg so not far off by that estimation.

I do agree that it needs reducing for dieting though . and second the oat straw mentioned.

 

[Clodagh]

I used to triple haylage nets my small fat ponies hay. And soak it for 12 hours. Can't you creosote or cribbox the stable to stop her chewing it? I also led the ponies off my horse, if shes fat and unfit then lungeing will be bad for her joints, hacking out would be better. I would take her neck off (or a chaser like the photo) and leave her naked unless its wet in which case she would have a rain sheet on.

 

[Rosehip]

My lami girl has a chaser clip as part of her diet and management, but she is rugged at night in a 100g, and is either naked or has a rain sheet on in the day.
She has 4lb of hay in the morning, and 6lb at night plus a small feed - zero grass and has a problem with colic if she isnt chewing - she is gradually losing weight, still approx 20kg more than the vet would like, but only about 10kg off where I would like her.... the vet wants her at 440kg , personally thats too lean for a Fell.
Is there anyone you could borrow a treeless off, or is she ok to be ridden bareback? That would solve the saddle problem Good luck

 

[FanyDuChamp]

I suppose you learn something every day with horses. Never have I ever heard of clipping a horse that is not being ridden in the hope that it will lose weight getting cold. That is such a good idea! Yes it will survive, of course it will, but I think I could think of a lot of different ways to manage an overweight horse, perhaps like not allowing it to get fat in the first place? Exercise, restricted grazing in the summer months, I could go on. I got an emaciated TB last winter, perhaps I should have reversed the method and just piled loads of rugs on him and left him to it. Sadly there is no quick fix.

I actually agree with you, this is the first year Fany has been clipped and rugged and it because she scratches so hard when she has her extremely full coat that she makes herself bleed. Fany was obese when we got her and has now achieved a good weight the vet says. I think clipping then not rugging is cruel tbh like getting a human out of their winter clothes and putting them in a swimsuit. However, a lot of people do seem to use it as a way to weight loss.

Lastly I also agree there is no quick fix, in fact it is a long hard slog with a very good doer to get weight off and requires utter determination and in Fany's case quite a hard heart when she turns her big sad eyes on you!

FDC

 

[Penny Less]

Just chucking my two pennorth in. I have chaser clipped my hairy fat beast and not rugged. He is in at night. The temperature here has been between 50 and 60 degrees.
One reason was because he sweats when ridden (not ridden often) but the other was to try and get some fat off him.

 

[noblesteed]

I am also amazed by some of the replies to this post... Keeping a fatty in good shape is an ENDLESS struggle, not helped by people's (mainly skinny tb owners') remarks 'hmm he looks well,' etc. I am permanently racked with guilt about leaving mine out 24 hours in a greenguard in summer, then under-rugging and starving him in winter. But I would feel far more guilty if he had laminitis!

As far as I understand, HEAT is a bi-product of a horses' digestive system, therefore as long as they have forage to eat they are NOT going to 'die of cold' because their food is being converted to heat energy. I would rather my horse spent his energy keeping warm than laying down more fat!!!!

OP I would just read the BHS welfare advice off their website about keeping weight off fatties. The BHS team of scientists should PROBABLY know what they are talking about better than most!!!!!!!!

 

[Wagtail]

Yes, I think it is cruel not to rug and also that it is a pointless exercise. The reason being that your horse will not be used to having to suddenly produce more heat and it will take her a while to aclimatise. She will simply drop body temperarure and not use up more calories keeping warm. If you want to make her lose weight then exercise her more and feed her less. Making a horse cold to lose weight is a very unpleasant and IMO cruel method to use. Having said that, at the moment the temperatures are not that cold and so long as she has a ligthweight on she should be fine.

 

[ester]

homeostasis is a wonderful thing .

well said noblesteed, yup plenty of heat produced by a horse's digestive. This would normally trapped by fat layers/hair. By reducing the amount of hair it just leaves the body a bit faster.

Plus it sounds like said haffie has plenty of insulating fat to keep it cosy too!

 

[stencilface]

Given current temps I don't think its cruel at all! My horse (unclipped, box rest/restricted exercise) gets about 3/4 of a bale a day - he has a belly on him, but that is due to lack of muscle - which I am now building up, as opposed to just being fat - although he is always a good doer

If they can eat and move they stay warm, esp if they have a good coat and a good fat store - chaser clips are fairly minor imo - all the top bits are covered.

 

[JFTDWS]

The reason being that your horse will not be used to having to suddenly produce more heat and it will take her a while to aclimatise.

Eh? The body has a number of feedback mechanisms in place to allow it to judge and respond to changes in temperature - some responses are rapid (hair standing on end), some fast (increased metabolism) and others slow (the growth of a thicker coat). It's all part of homeostasis.

That said, my cob is trace clipped and naked (not all the time, but right now) because it's simply not cold enough to rug him right now, so I'm sure she'll be fine.

 

[ester]

Franks is full clipped (though does need re-doing) and naked, its been t-shirt weather practically here today!

 

[Wagtail]

Eh? The body has a number of feedback mechanisms in place to allow it to judge and respond to changes in temperature - some responses are rapid (hair standing on end), some fast (increased metabolism) and others slow (the growth of a thicker coat). It's all part of homeostasis.

That said, my cob is trace clipped and naked (not all the time, but right now) because it's simply not cold enough to rug him right now, so I'm sure she'll be fine.

Typically, horses require 10 to 21 days to adapt to cold.

(see http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/coldweathermgmt.shtml)

 

[JFTDWS]

t-shirt weather here too. My highland's fully clipped but I did rug him as I don't want him filthy tomorrow

OP - Another vote for feeding straw instead of hay and taking it out ride and lead off your other horse

 

[Serephin]

My cob has a low trace clip and he is out naked (in at night now) - I put a lightweight rug on him the other day cos of the rain and he sweated terribly, so I took it off again. His fur is thick and he is like a bear. The rain wasn't getting anywhere near his skin. He is hot horse by nature so I see no point in rugging him - the only reason to rug would be if I gave into peer pressure.

Last year he spent most of the snowy winter in a lightweight rug, but thinking back, probably didn't need it.

 

[ester]

Typically, horses require 10 to 21 days to adapt to cold.

(see http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/coldweathermgmt.shtml)

but, if said article is correct that is for horses going from 20C to 5C... in one change, ie not really equivalent to clipping part of a horse when the outside temp is remaining the same

 

[JFTDWS]

Furthermore, notice the distinction in the article between rapid and slow adaptations to the change in temperature. I'd point out that the article clearly describes a number of useful rapid responses. It doesn't actually determine what it means by aclimatisation - the shutting down of peripheral blood flow and changes in resp rate etc all occur within hours, not days (unless of course horses are an exception to normal endotherm rules ).

Aside from anything else (mostly the fact that it doesn't really say what you claim it says), I am disinclined to take the word of an un-referenced, non-peer reviewed article distributed by a non-veterinary / non-medical society.

 

[Wagtail]

The short term responses such as shivering etc are all very unpleasant. I would not want to put any horse through it unnecessarily. As it happens, it is quite mild at present and so I don't expect the OP's horse to suffer much if at all. But I really do not agree with the principle of purposely making a horse cold in an effort for it to lose weight. It is an inhumane method IMO.

 

[Wagtail]

Aside from anything else (mostly the fact that it doesn't really say what you claim it says), I am disinclined to take the word of an un-referenced, non-peer reviewed article distributed by a non-veterinary / non-medical society.

So you disagree with the article? You think that horses immediately adapt?

 

[JFTDWS]

No, I agree with the article - I disagree with your interpretation of it. I think it is unnecessarily vague and the specifics are useless without links to peer reviewed published empirical data to support them. However, I draw your attention to the following statement:

"Horses respond in two ways to cold: acutely (immediately) and chronically"

And I repeat, as I have said before, that horses respond instantly, in an intermediary time frame (hours) and over long periods (adaptations such as growing a thicker coat).

I've never considered shivering to be unpleasant? It's an effective and useful way of keeping warm.

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Well said. It does so annoy me that people think they can freeze or starve a fat horse slim in an instant.

Dont let it get overweight in the first place, but if it is then manage it properly.

Tell you what, try telling the next fat person you see that they must stay out at night with no clothes on having first been tied up all day with sellotape accross their mouth!

All the unclipped horses on our yard e.g. the elderly shetland and the young Fjord are sweating all the time at the moment it's so warm here even at night - I don't think a chaser clip will cause it to suffer in the least - it might even be more comfortable.

 

[Wagtail]

No, I agree with the article - I disagree with your interpretation of it. I think it is unnecessarily vague and the specifics are useless without links to peer reviewed published empirical data to support them. However, I draw your attention to the following statement:

"Horses respond in two ways to cold: acutely (immediately) and chronically"
And I repeat, as I have said before, that horses respond instantly, in an intermediary time frame (hours) and over long periods (adaptations such as growing a thicker coat).

Yes, I know that.

I've never considered shivering to be unpleasant? It's an effective and useful way of keeping warm.

Then you are very strange if you honestly feel comfortable when you are shivering. Or is it just me who dislikes it? I positively hate getting cold and wouldn't inflict it on my horses if I can possibly help it. Certainly not intentionally. Do you intentionally make your horses cold?

 

['S'teamed]

Depends what clip TBH
Full, then no

but a chaser, low/high trace or even a blanket, then yes..in temps we have down south ATM

OVER rugging IMO is far more detrimental

 

[JFTDWS]

Yes, I know that.

Then why did you suggest that horses are only capable of adapting over longer periods? As your article states, they do adapt immediately to changes in temperature


Then you are very strange if you honestly feel comfortable when you are shivering. Or is it just me who dislikes it? I positively hate getting cold and wouldn't inflict it on my horses if I can possibly help it. Certainly not intentionally. Do you intentionally make your horses cold?

I couldn't possibly comment as to which of us is more peculiar. I am aware some people dislike being cold more than others. I suspect horses are similar are those which "feel" the cold will make that evident.

I do not make my horses cold because I do not have obese horses. Do you make your horses hot, because you prefer the warm?

 

[Wagtail]

I couldn't possibly comment as to which of us is more peculiar. I am aware some people dislike being cold more than others. I suspect horses are similar are those which "feel" the cold will make that evident.

I do not make my horses cold because I do not have obese horses.

So you would if they were too fat?

Do you make your horses hot, because you prefer the warm?

Why on earth would I do that? Over rugging is just as cruel.