Clipped out porker horse and no rugs -cruel?

JFTD said:
I couldn't possibly comment as to which of us is more peculiar. I am aware some people dislike being cold more than others. I suspect horses are similar are those which "feel" the cold will make that evident.

I do not make my horses cold because I do not have obese horses. Do you make your horses hot, because you prefer the warm?
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I would not like to be fat, I dont and wouldnt allow obesity in my horses either.
 
Wagtail said:
So you would if they were too fat?

I have never needed to - I have always been able to control their weight by other means - normally by stepping up exercise (you might notice I did recommend the OP ride and lead, and take other measures). However, if I could not get weight under control by other means I would certainly consider not rugging in weather as warm as this, and under-rugging in colder weather.

:D Why on earth would I do that? Over rugging is just as cruel.
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At last we agree on something. My point was that making it personal was neither constructive nor relevant ;)
 
lionman said:
I would not like to be fat, I dont and wouldnt allow obesity in my horses either.
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Quite right, I couldn't agree more. Fat horses are an abomination and I am inspired to maul their owners on a regular basis.

(Owners who don't bother to do anything about it, that is)
 
JFTD said:
At last we agree on something. My point was that making it personal was neither constructive nor relevant ;)
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I'm confused with your smilies TBH. You appear to be having some sort of dig with the roll eyes and the winks. For the record, I was not trying to make anything personal. I was trying to reference our own human experiences relating to basic responses that are shared by other mammals. I find being cold enough to shiver highly unpleasant and assumed that others felt the same way. I thought the comment was constructive because I was trying to illustrate a point by drawing on a common human experience. You are honestly the first person I have 'met' who does not mind being cold enough to shiver (and remember when people inflict it on their horses, it is not just for an hour or two which humans usually endure. It is 24/7. No getting warm again by the fire.) You are honestly saying you would not mind that? That you would not find it unpleasant to be underclothed 24/7?

Sorry if you feel this was 'personal and unconstructive', but I have to disagree with you there.
 
My id is overweight, he's a companion due to previous stifle ops and arthritis. I'm currently weighing his hay, no hard feed except a handful of greengold with his supps. Can't muzzle him as he gets very irrate and takes it out on my tb who when turned out can't be separated from!! He's not rugged, doesn't get overly hairy neither (he's xTBxWB) and is unclipped. I will rug him in a lw no fill on wet, windy days so he doesn't get a chill but otherwise will be unrugged all winter. To be honest he's big boned anyway, not cresty and his bums okay, just has a huge belly!! This is due to lack of work, hoping he'll be sound enough next spring to do something! The weight is coming off him, he now weighs 742kg on tape, he is 17hh!! He's dropped 10kgs in a fortnight and is not starving!! He's been wormed also!! Think it's due to weighing out hay and no rug! Oh and using an elimanet!!
It is bl**dy hard shifting weight off them though! My boy came to me obese and it's worse that he's not been able to be worked! Far easier keeping weight on my tb!!!!
 
My horse has hardly any winter coat and is not clipped at the moment. For the past week I have put on a rain sheet, and as soon as he has a rug on his starts to put on weight, so by not rugging he is obviously using up a lot of energy.

I think mine would eat 2 wedges of hay in about 1 hour and have nothing to eat for most of the night, I give him lots more than that, although I should weigh it, I know.
 
I don't think its cruel to chase clip & leave naked at this time. It was warm enough to be out in a t-shirt here today & it's not even freezing at night!!

My horse (3/4 tb) is currently out unrugged, although unclipped. She is overweight, and part the reason I've not put rug on her is so that she actually uses some energy to keep warm... also she can't get too warm else she gets scabby irritations.
It's no bad thing for any animal (inc. humans) to actually use their natural functions to keep warm & yes shivering is one of them! Along with burning fat to increase heat output through digestion, raising the hairs, and vasoconstriction & eventually acclimatisation!

I would rather make my horse shiver occasionally/move around more in favour of starving her. Especially as she becomes a VERY moody mare if hungry / lethargic.
 
Wagtail said:
I'm confused with your smilies TBH. You appear to be having some sort of dig with the roll eyes and the winks. For the record, I was not trying to make anything personal. I was trying to reference our own human experiences relating to basic responses that are shared by other mammals. I find being cold enough to shiver highly unpleasant and assumed that others felt the same way. I thought the comment was constructive because I was trying to illustrate a point by drawing on a common human experience. You are honestly the first person I have 'met' who does not mind being cold enough to shiver (and remember when people inflict it on their horses, it is not just for an hour or two which humans usually endure. It is 24/7. No getting warm again by the fire.) You are honestly saying you would not mind that? That you would not find it unpleasant to be underclothed 24/7?

Sorry if you feel this was 'personal and unconstructive', but I have to disagree with you there.
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I don't find my use of smilies any more bizarre than yours!

Actually, I think by drawing comparison with my response to being cold is valid - though as I stated I don't mind it. I would object to being seriously cold - hence why I wouldn't leave a horse fully clipped and naked in the snow (as I said previously) but the mild sort of cold you get outside at this time of year, no I honesty don't find it a problem. We're not even talking about a full clip here - a partial clip. I would be surprised if any horse, let alone a fat one, were to shiver on a night like this!

I object to the statement "Do you intentionally make your horses cold?" which is an unconstructive statement I think intentionally designed to make it sound as though I (that's me - personally) intentionally expose my horses to extremes of temperature for no reason. Since that notion is absurd, I don't think it is constructive to make that comment.

I am rolling my eyes at this thread - you contradicted yourself with your own link!
 
I dont know where you are - but my grass has stopped growing.

I would cut the hard feeds right down and reduce the amount of hay she is getting to perhaps 1 and half sections. try walking her out/lunging her (gently - 10 mins is enough) As for leaving her unrugged - at the moment its fairly warm for the time of year, I would be tempted to leave her unrugged and perhaps popping a fleece on at night whilst the temperatures are so balmy.
Keep a close eye on the weather and her weight.

Over the winter all horses tend to drop a little weight - i would rather have a little weight on going into winter than coming out of winter into spring.
 
I don't know why people are arguing about shivering.

My horse (trace clipped and unrugged good-doer) does NOT shiver.

Not once have I found him standing looking miserable in his field shivering. Not once has his bed been churned up after a shivery night pacing around, unrugged in a freezing cold stable.
This is because he has a layer of FAT which keeps him warm!
Once he slims down and he looks like he might be getting cold, or if the weather is snowy or wet and windy and he could get a chill, he gets lightly rugged, just enough to ensure he doesn't get too cold. I would never let my horse stand shivering in his field. Likewise should the temperatre drop below freezing at night he wears a light stable rug. I carefully manage his needs; he is happy, healthy and full of personality whatever the weather, and this tells me his needs are being met.

Implying that any unrugged clipped good-doer will be standing in it's field shivering miserably all winter is just nonsense!!!!! Maybe they might if they were utterly neglected but then their owners wouldn't be posting on here for advice would they?
 
noblesteed said:
I don't know why people are arguing about shivering.

My horse (trace clipped and unrugged good-doer) does NOT shiver.

Not once have I found him standing looking miserable in his field shivering. Not once has his bed been churned up after a shivery night pacing around, unrugged in a freezing cold stable.
This is because he has a layer of FAT which keeps him warm!
Once he slims down and he looks like he might be getting cold, or if the weather is snowy or wet and windy and he could get a chill, he gets lightly rugged, just enough to ensure he doesn't get too cold. I would never let my horse stand shivering in his field. Likewise should the temperatre drop below freezing at night he wears a light stable rug. I carefully manage his needs; he is happy, healthy and full of personality whatever the weather, and this tells me his needs are being met.

Implying that any unrugged clipped good-doer will be standing in it's field shivering miserably all winter is just nonsense!!!!! Maybe they might if they were utterly neglected but then their owners wouldn't be posting on here for advice would they?
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You miss my point. I am not objecting to horses being unrugged with chaser clips. I am objecting to intentionally making them cold in order that they lose weight. As I said earlier, I doubt that in this mild weather the OP's horse is too cold. I am arguing againt the principle of using cold to make a horse lose weight.
 
Dancing Queen said:
It was a lovely warm day today! xx
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I've just been out to rug up the (fully clipped and not overweight) pony in a t-shirt :) I was practically boiling when I took them out this afternoon! :D You'd never believe it was November! xx


eta - I did not "rug up the pony in a t-shirt", I was wearing the t shirt, he had a normal horse rug put on him :eek:
 
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Wagtail said:
You miss my point. I am not objecting to horses being unrugged with chaser clips. I am objecting to intentionally making them cold in order that they lose weight. As I said earlier, I doubt that in this mild weather the OP's horse is too cold. I am arguing againt the principle of using cold to make a horse lose weight.
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Ah but the right or wrong of any principle is based on the degree to which you apply it. I mean to say that it is acceptable to exercise a horse to make it lose weight - that is right in principle. It is unacceptable to work a horse until it collapses to make it lose weight - that is wrong in principle.

IMO it is acceptable to help a horse lose weight by not keeping it warm - i.e. allowing it to become colder than is optimal, so that it uses more energy keeping warm. It is unacceptable to freeze it (e.g. full clipping in the snow) so that it is miserable. The intermediates between that will be on a sliding scale of acceptablity depending on how desperately the horse needs to lose weight and how negatively it reacts to being cold (a fine skinned animal that stands at the gate shivering and looking depressed, vs a thick skinned native which carries on eating despite being cold and shivering).
 
JFTD said:
Ah but the right or wrong of any principle is based on the degree to which you apply it. I mean to say that it is acceptable to exercise a horse to make it lose weight - that is right in principle. It is unacceptable to work a horse until it collapses to make it lose weight - that is wrong in principle.

IMO it is acceptable to help a horse lose weight by not keeping it warm - i.e. allowing it to become colder than is optimal, so that it uses more energy keeping warm. It is unacceptable to freeze it (e.g. full clipping in the snow) so that it is miserable. The intermediates between that will be on a sliding scale of acceptablity depending on how desperately the horse needs to lose weight and how negatively it reacts to being cold (a fine skinned animal that stands at the gate shivering and looking depressed, vs a thick skinned native which carries on eating despite being cold and shivering).
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I guess we all have our thresholds of acceptability.
 
Wagtail said:
I guess we all have our thresholds of acceptability.
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Quite. People have different priorities in their management - some believe in routine above all else, some believe in what they perceive as their horse's happiness - and I personally have a big thing about equine obesity, probably because I have cobs and natives and a sort of vet background where I've been exposed to a lot of obese horses and the problems as a result. It's inevitable that people's threshold will be influenced by what they perceive as the most important aspect of management :)
 
Every horse is different & we all know ours horses needs. One of mine isn't clipped & won't be clipped until new year as going to be turning him away for winter as he is only 4yrs old & he wears a l/w rug only becuase he is a big wimp if he gets wet he just stands at the gate shivering cold. Yet my mums cob is clipped & doesn't feel the cold, but he does still wear a l/w rug. Me personally wouldn't have my horses out if clipped without a rug unless it is a rather warm day, but thats my choice. I have a haflinger that is a lardy arse & has always been a lardy arse he isn't clipped yet & is like a teddy bear so won't be rugged until clipped.

I do agree with the others about cutting down on the hay & try taking her out in hand or lunge her. :)

Could always try weight watchers, althought not sure they take on horses :p
 
Op i dont think your being cruel i think your being pragmatic - my moose is out during the day without a rug currently unless raining or v windy or both ( then she has a lightweight on) she has a blanket clip and is a Welsh x Tb v good doer who could do with still losing a few pounds however as it gets colder I'll re asses I did this on the advice of a friend who is a specialist equine vet. When in her stable she has a stable sheet /fleece on more because she is a messy wet mare :eek:
 
Yes, its a warm november so this argument is really not applicable. Suppose it was this time last year, would you all feel so complacent? Would you all say, yep leave the clipped horse out in minus 5 degrees? I believe that the wellfare of a horse begins BEFORE clipping to aid loss of weight, We could soon be in a freeze, who knows, we are coming into winter.
 
OP I did exactly this to my sons pony a few years ago, we got part way into winter and she was too far on the heavy side despite being muzzled in the field and on rations in the stable, I started to worry about the spring grass coming through so during a mild few days I gave her a "big neck and belly / very low chaser" clip, she did start to steadily lose weight. When we had horrid days I put a light turnout sheet on her but she went naked in the stable and on dry days in the field.
It has to be a better option (obviously done with a mind to common sense) than chronic laminitis come spring!
Just a thought though, has she been checked for insulin resistance? Just to be sure its not a metabolic problem which is affecting her weight?
 
lionman said:
Yes, its a warm november so this argument is really not applicable. Suppose it was this time last year, would you all feel so complacent? Would you all say, yep leave the clipped horse out in minus 5 degrees? I believe that the wellfare of a horse begins BEFORE clipping to aid loss of weight, We could soon be in a freeze, who knows, we are coming into winter.
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But last winter the horses weight wasn't the problem it is this year probably because of the difference in weather! So, your argument isn't really applicable.

And as JFTD said if it freezes & the horse is really cold then she can stick a rug on it!
 
Very interesting thread.

I feel it is kinder to clip and have out with no rug than to risk laminitis.

I wonder if a lot of people forget that horses produce a lot of heat due to being hindgut fermentors.

Humans, on the other hand at not very economical in keeping warm.
 
Tharg said:
Very interesting thread.

I feel it is kinder to clip and have out with no rug than to risk laminitis.

I wonder if a lot of people forget that horses produce a lot of heat due to being hindgut fermentors.

Humans, on the other hand at not very economical in keeping warm.
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This ^^^

Like everything with horsecare, you take into consideration the weather, the amount of shelter and access to forage to balance the ability to remain comfortable. You know your horse, if he looks tucked up and miserable, he's uncomfortable.
Weightape weekly, if he's dropping weight too quickly, then he's struggling to cope, but with a tracer clip, I doubt it.
Native good doers are a nightmare to keep slim.

Rather than lunging, which with a heavy, unfit horse, could put a strain on his limbs, could you ride and lead ? Most horses take to it very well.
Practise in a safe area and get your OH to come with you (bikes are very handy). Leading off another horse is a good way to get fit gently, it saves time and also has the benefit of increasing the horse's metabolism and confidence.
 
This is a silly thread really because no, the arguments are not applicable because of the mild weather. Only three of my eight are rugged at the moment except for if it rains when they all have a lightweight.

But the reason I think this thread is silly is that the OP clipped her horse to make it cold so it would lose weight. In this weather the horse would not be cold in any case! But what is even sillier, is that those who support her actions say she can put a rug on the horse if it gets cold! :confused: Erm...wouldn't that then defeat the object of what she is trying to do? Therefore are you really supporting the practice of intentionally making a horse cold in order for it to lose weight?

A far better way of addressing this problem would be to exercise the horse. The horse ought to at least be lunged daily. Time consuming, I know, but far kinder than trying to shiver the weight off.
 
Wagtail, sometimes I think you are deliberately obtuse. As I have taken some time to explain before, I do support the op's theory while the weather is reasonable (it will need to use more energy to keep warm without it's coat, even now, and as it gets colder). However, if it freezes as lionman implies, she can certainly stick a rug on to ensure the horse is kept colder than optimum temp (thus using energy to keep warm) but not to such a degree as to make the horse suffer. Is this a hard concept to grasp? You're entitled to your view that horses should always be kept at perfect temperatures so they never have to use energy to stay warm, but to damn the thread as pointless and suggest we are hypocritical or innately thick is really rather silly.
 
I would like to thank you for saving my typing fingers several times on this thread JFTD :D

Everything has degrees, most would not fully clip a horse and chuck it out in the snow and let it get proper cold and risk other problems. So if the horse looks UNREASONABLY cold you might put a rug on it. but for example there have been very few occasions when Frank, fully clipped has had anything more than a mediumweight on. Moderation is the key!

I suspect as a haffie it currently has more hair on the unclipped parts of its body than most have spread out around their whole body.
 
Wagtail said:
This is a silly thread really because no, the arguments are not applicable because of the mild weather. Only three of my eight are rugged at the moment except for if it rains when they all have a lightweight.

But the reason I think this thread is silly is that the OP clipped her horse to make it cold so it would lose weight. In this weather the horse would not be cold in any case! But what is even sillier, is that those who support her actions say she can put a rug on the horse if it gets cold! :confused: Erm...wouldn't that then defeat the object of what she is trying to do? Therefore are you really supporting the practice of intentionally making a horse cold in order for it to lose weight?

A far better way of addressing this problem would be to exercise the horse. The horse ought to at least be lunged daily. Time consuming, I know, but far kinder than trying to shiver the weight off.
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Gotta say, I do agree with you.
 
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