AmyMay
Situation normal
The turnout situation is not something that the op has any control of at this yard.
Clipping for weight loss has anyone done it?
- Thread starter wattamus
- Start date
The turnout situation is not something that the op has any control of at this yard.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
Just to make this whole thing worse I looked at previous posts by OP and she mentions having moved her horses into stables 10ft by 10ft. It was some time ago but I really hope that this is not where they are now. Heartbreaking that someone would do this to their horses, but since she thinks that they are "healthy and happy" I suppose we can only hope that someone else on the yard notices what is going on and calls animal welfare. It is a difficult one as I know that there are some owners at my yard who I barely see, but I know that they just have different schedules to me. I suppose the other owners assume that she is doing the horses when they are not around.
wattamus
Well-Known Member
Not going to argue the toss about the other things it's not an ideal situation but until the weather improves we're pretty stuck.
HOWEVER yes horses are no longer on that yard (we moved a couple of years ago) went to another yard with large stables good grazing and winter turnout (although the horses spent all day stood at the gate waiting to come in.....). That yard shut down as owner was not interested in having liveries.
Moved to a field a couple of miles away and purchased said horse. Sadly we had to rush the descision due to current yard shutting down the field itself had barbed wire fencing, was riddled with weeds and the horses never settled. If they had settled we would've defences and probably reseeded the field (but that is a massive investment for property that isn't yours)
Therefore we moved to current yard. 12x12 stables.........
Do you really think if my horses welfare was an issue, I would be able to get regular visits from my vets/farrier/ instructors/ physics etc without at least one of them saying something?! Yes her weight is an issue which is why I'm trying to do something about it (following vets advice and supervision) I came to ask if anyone had any other suggestions and just get abuse - my mistake (thank you to those that have posted helpful suggestions I will take them on board and try and implement what I can). To the rest of you, sorry but I think I'll follow professional advice rather than that of some very judgemental keyboard warriors.
I'm not replying anymore. Just felt I had to at least correct that last assumption.
Also, your last comment.... And this will horrify you...... My horses are some of the best kept on the yard ;-D ...........
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
OP I don’t agree with the routine that your horses have but understand you are in a difficult place. Having had a partner with cancer was stressful so cannot imagine the worry you have, having it yourself.
I would say that if you did reach out to some local horsey people there may be people willing to pull together and help you out. Are there any riding clubs or local organisations?
Years ago we had a lady on our yard who had cancer. She couldn’t afford to put her pony on full livery and was struggling. She shared the pony with her daughter and really didn’t want to sell her. We all clubbed together and looked after the mare. Although she responded to treatment that time the cancer returned and she lost her battle 18 months ago.
Cancer aside though, Help is out there if you need it.
I would say that if you did reach out to some local horsey people there may be people willing to pull together and help you out. Are there any riding clubs or local organisations?
Years ago we had a lady on our yard who had cancer. She couldn’t afford to put her pony on full livery and was struggling. She shared the pony with her daughter and really didn’t want to sell her. We all clubbed together and looked after the mare. Although she responded to treatment that time the cancer returned and she lost her battle 18 months ago.
Cancer aside though, Help is out there if you need it.
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
Where on earth do you get your absolute certainty on this, OP? I'm baffled because I always consider that how I keep my horses - almost every aspect of it - could be improved, and that other people might have disapprove of some aspect of it, and they might even be right about some things. I know my vet doesn't offer unsolicited opinions on lots of things, because I don't get told some things unless I specifically ask, and most professionals are similar in my experience. Nobody gets it right all the time, and anybody who thinks they do is, surely, deluded.
Personally I'd have an awful lot more sympathy, and respect, for anyone who admitted that what they're doing isn't perfect, and if a better solution became available, they'd jump on it. What depresses me about the OP's posts is the insistence that her horses don't need to express their natural behaviours, that the RSPCA wouldn't care about the infringement of one of their own 5 freedoms, and that the horses don't like winter turnout (stand at the gate / won't settle). If your horses (plural) don't like winter turnout, you almost certainly just haven't got the right system for them. None of mine, or any of the (many) horses I've cared for over the years, have ever stood at the gate of a field all day, when they've got company, grazing and decent turnout. There are, of course, occasional exceptions, but I find it hard to believe the OP can have acquired three of those.
It's really rare for HHO to be so unanimous about an issue like this. There's a small contingent of people on here who think it's acceptable, but they're a tiny minority. Most posters who have historically defended no winter turnout scenarios are those who work their horses properly and have set ups to deal with the situation. I argue the toss with them, not because I think they're wrong, but because I think that people should be really clear about how they make "no winter turnout" work, so that it doesn't validate situations like the OP's, unless they really mean that (and, in that case, I simply disagree with them).
Personally I'd have an awful lot more sympathy, and respect, for anyone who admitted that what they're doing isn't perfect, and if a better solution became available, they'd jump on it. What depresses me about the OP's posts is the insistence that her horses don't need to express their natural behaviours, that the RSPCA wouldn't care about the infringement of one of their own 5 freedoms, and that the horses don't like winter turnout (stand at the gate / won't settle). If your horses (plural) don't like winter turnout, you almost certainly just haven't got the right system for them. None of mine, or any of the (many) horses I've cared for over the years, have ever stood at the gate of a field all day, when they've got company, grazing and decent turnout. There are, of course, occasional exceptions, but I find it hard to believe the OP can have acquired three of those.
It's really rare for HHO to be so unanimous about an issue like this. There's a small contingent of people on here who think it's acceptable, but they're a tiny minority. Most posters who have historically defended no winter turnout scenarios are those who work their horses properly and have set ups to deal with the situation. I argue the toss with them, not because I think they're wrong, but because I think that people should be really clear about how they make "no winter turnout" work, so that it doesn't validate situations like the OP's, unless they really mean that (and, in that case, I simply disagree with them).
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Horses can’t be in good health without exercise daily they just can’t .
As for professionals they are paid to do a job and that’s what they do they are not your conscience.
I have box rested injured horses but for me that’s a Labour intensive exercise where the horses has people doing stuff all day to keep it settled and amused .
they are never left more than two hours between seven am and midnight.
As for professionals they are paid to do a job and that’s what they do they are not your conscience.
I have box rested injured horses but for me that’s a Labour intensive exercise where the horses has people doing stuff all day to keep it settled and amused .
they are never left more than two hours between seven am and midnight.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I think you have taken some harsh commentary with good grace on this thread. But I also think you are mistaking vets' normal reticence to criticize how people keep their horses for approval.
I don't believe that you are receiving professional advice to keep your horses stabled full time with two ten minute walks a day. I think it is much more likely that the professionals know that worse things happen and are saying something noncommittal about it like 'well they don't look as if there's any problem'. And you are mistaking that for advice that things really are OK when they aren't.
A horse I thought had made an easy move from his previous home had behaviour changes after eight months that showed in reality he had been hiding anxiety all that time. I too am puzzled by your certainty that your horses are happy when you see them so little compared with the amount of time spent with that horse, who lives at home and is also watched on camera at night.
I do sincerely congratulate you on keeping your temper on the thread though, it would have been easy to lose it in the face of people telling you your horses would be better off dead.
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I don't believe that you are receiving professional advice to keep your horses stabled full time with two ten minute walks a day. I think it is much more likely that the professionals know that worse things happen and are saying something noncommittal about it like 'well they don't look as if there's any problem'. And you are mistaking that for advice that things really are OK when they aren't.
A horse I thought had made an easy move from his previous home had behaviour changes after eight months that showed in reality he had been hiding anxiety all that time. I too am puzzled by your certainty that your horses are happy when you see them so little compared with the amount of time spent with that horse, who lives at home and is also watched on camera at night.
I do sincerely congratulate you on keeping your temper on the thread though, it would have been easy to lose it in the face of people telling you your horses would be better off dead.
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Sail_away
Well-Known Member
It sounds like you are in a tricky situation and I do feel for you. Some of the comments on this post come across as harsh but I am certain that they are only concerned for the welfare of your horses and aren’t meant as a personal attack.
I don’t think you’re managing very well at the yard you’re at, and your horses aren’t either. One is obese, and 24/7 stabling for two older horses won’t be good on their joints. I would not be surprised if your mare had ulcers, a 12lb haynet will last a couple of hours, maximum, leaving her with nothing to eat for the rest of the day. Even if you don’t believe turnout is necessary (and it is - how you are keeping them would be illegal in Sweden, for example, where they would have to have two hours minimum turnout a day) you still have other welfare issues. If there is no prospect of getting turnout for your older two, even in the summer (you mentioned they haven’t had turnout for two years?) then I would consider putting them to sleep. They have had a good, respectable run and will be far better off than existing, with low-level pain, for a few more years stuck inside a box. Or retirement grass livery, if they can stay together then that will make the change easier.
For your mare, it may be hard but you cannot exercise her according to her needs, so selling her is really the best option. We owe it to our animals to give them the best care possible, and if that is with another owner then that is a difficult but necessary decision. Imagine how much happier she will be in a home with turnout and regular exercise.
If you won’t do any of that... at least get a rider in to exercise your horse. People will do it for free. I school a rising five year old welsh mare, and teach her young owner, I don’t get paid and wouldn’t want to, I do it because I like the horse and the family that owns her. My friend has shared several horses, and has paid for the privilege of training them up. So no, not all good riders expect to get paid, there are plenty of non-professionals who just want a ride. Ask your local pony club if an older member is currently horse-less, I am sure there will be someone who will enjoy the challenge!
Good luck in whatever you to, but please, please do something, you are not meeting the basic mental needs of these horses.
I don’t think you’re managing very well at the yard you’re at, and your horses aren’t either. One is obese, and 24/7 stabling for two older horses won’t be good on their joints. I would not be surprised if your mare had ulcers, a 12lb haynet will last a couple of hours, maximum, leaving her with nothing to eat for the rest of the day. Even if you don’t believe turnout is necessary (and it is - how you are keeping them would be illegal in Sweden, for example, where they would have to have two hours minimum turnout a day) you still have other welfare issues. If there is no prospect of getting turnout for your older two, even in the summer (you mentioned they haven’t had turnout for two years?) then I would consider putting them to sleep. They have had a good, respectable run and will be far better off than existing, with low-level pain, for a few more years stuck inside a box. Or retirement grass livery, if they can stay together then that will make the change easier.
For your mare, it may be hard but you cannot exercise her according to her needs, so selling her is really the best option. We owe it to our animals to give them the best care possible, and if that is with another owner then that is a difficult but necessary decision. Imagine how much happier she will be in a home with turnout and regular exercise.
If you won’t do any of that... at least get a rider in to exercise your horse. People will do it for free. I school a rising five year old welsh mare, and teach her young owner, I don’t get paid and wouldn’t want to, I do it because I like the horse and the family that owns her. My friend has shared several horses, and has paid for the privilege of training them up. So no, not all good riders expect to get paid, there are plenty of non-professionals who just want a ride. Ask your local pony club if an older member is currently horse-less, I am sure there will be someone who will enjoy the challenge!
Good luck in whatever you to, but please, please do something, you are not meeting the basic mental needs of these horses.
{97702}
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Quite interesting looking back at the OP's previous posts, which isn't something I ever bother doing as a rule. Comments like "if you cant afford to buy a trailer you can't afford to maintain one" (or words to that effect... i didn't write it down....) seem rather ironic really - as does the fact that the OP also had an obese cob in 2015, so it is apparently an ongoing problem.
sakura
Well-Known Member
that’s not something to be smug about, and that attitude is the main issue I have here. all very sad
be positive
Well-Known Member
It says more about the standards on the yard than anything else, sadly, it is a similar attitude to the one that my recently departed livery had when I questioned how she was planning to care for her horses this winter, her 'this is how I have always kept them and they are fine' did not sit well with me as a justification for keeping them shut in for 24 hours at a time so she was 'encouraged' to leave, mine look muddy but are out as much as possible, as a YO I would not allow horses to stand in for long periods of time and if I could not turn out regularly all year round then I would stop taking on liveries.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
I am glad that even though you are not providing for their basic needs they are not in 10ft by 10ft boxes. You say that your horses are "some of the best kept on the yard". You are either in a seriously bad place or, as I suspect, you simply do not understand what a horse needs to be healthy and happy.
Please consider this. When one sees a horse standing at the gate one might assume that it is unhappy and has been standing there all day. It may however be that you have arrived at bringing in time and the horse is keen to eat. Or it has heard you and knows that a treat is coming. I simply cannot believe that you have magically acquired 3 horses who like to stand in boxes 24 hours a day. You seem to think that they are warm and dry in stables and so are "some of the best kept on the yard". Not the case. The best kept are the ones who ware wet and muddy, who even if there is no turnout have been taken out and walked during the pouring rain, whose owners are there giving them what they need in this restrictive scenario.
You are not consistent in what you say other than that your horses are "healthy and happy". They are not. At least one is obese, and it is obese because it is at best neglected and at worst abused. Of course the vet and the farrier still come. They are there to treat and shoe your horse and most will not offer unsolicited advice to an owner who is insistent that they are keeping their horses in an acceptable condition. Why do you think that almost everyone here thinks it is a terrible way to keep horses? Because we don't like you? We do not even know you, but all but a few agree that it is not right. Does that not tell you something?
You never answered any questions about how you intended to exercise these horses, what the 'mental stimulation' that you claim to give is exactly, or why you cannot just get up earlier and walk them. You also say that there is no one in your area who you would trust to ride them. You are the best rider in the area? Really? You asked for advice about the weight of your horse and you have received it, the horse needs to move. It does not matter what you want, that you would like an extra 2 hours in bed, that you can't be bothered to walk. I don't know how you think that 2 hours a day is enough to care for 3 horses with no turnout - it is about 3 times too little. I need 4 hours a day for my 2, and that is without having to clean boxes, give hay etc. Yes, they are out in the mud and it looks terrible, Yes they often stand around the hay feeder just eating, I also have problems that my winter paddock is smaller than I would like so I have to get up earlier to make sure that they are exercised every day. This is what you sign up to when you buy horses. If you have horses you have a responsibility to give them at least an acceptable standard of living, and in this you are failing badly.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="
Do you really think if my horses welfare was an issue, I would be able to get regular visits from my vets/farrier/ instructors/ physics etc without at least one of them saying something?! ...........[/QUOTE]
And I have just noticed this. SO you can afford "regular" visits from instructors and "physics" - I presume you mean physiotherapists - but you cannot afford to either keep your horses in a suitable place or pay someone to move them every day?? Seriously????
Do you really think if my horses welfare was an issue, I would be able to get regular visits from my vets/farrier/ instructors/ physics etc without at least one of them saying something?! ...........[/QUOTE]
And I have just noticed this. SO you can afford "regular" visits from instructors and "physics" - I presume you mean physiotherapists - but you cannot afford to either keep your horses in a suitable place or pay someone to move them every day?? Seriously????
Winters100
Well-Known Member
Well they would be. Would you rather be dead or kept in a 4m x 4m cell all day, freezing after having your hair cut off and with an owner who was too lazy to get out of bed to walk you. It is no life for these poor abused animals.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Winters100
Well-Known Member
If only there were more yard owners like you.
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
This is such a contentious one because so often on here it's regarded as a gold standard of horse care. It's certainly one of the aspects of my horse care that I think some posters on here would disagree with - that mine rarely see physios. The reason for that being that whenever they have been seen, they've always been dismissed with no requirement for work of any note and don't seem to benefit much for it. I also haven't had a regular riding lesson in years, although we do get training in random horse sports. I'm not defending that - I'm sure it would be better if they were seen more regularly, and it might pick something up earlier if something changes, but it's not my top priority. Maybe it should be - who knows...
It's interesting how people's priorities vary though. Mine generally look filthy. Their tack is often mud splattered. They will definitely look hang-dog in the wet weather, and if someone approached their field, they'd be turning on the pathetic looks in the hope of cadging some [more] food. But they're horses, and they live a pretty decent life, which is about as natural as possible for working horses.
{97702}
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She can also afford a trailer, a hot horse shower and to be out competing until at least October last year ?
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be positive
Well-Known Member
I am quite blunt and will tell my clients what they may not always want to hear, if I went to teach the OP I would comment on the fact they are shut in and that may well be why the mare is not easy, is obese and that it is not acceptable, I will never turn up do a lesson and leave I feel my job is more than that if the horse needs me as it's advocate then I will speak out if I think I can make a difference, I know this is rare and it would be highly unlikely that a visiting vet, physio or the average instructor would comment, if they even knew as it is unlikely to come up in a normal visit.
I would question the experience of a vet who recommended hunter clipping, leaving naked rather than suggesting increasing the exercise and soaking the hay which are the more obvious ways to reduce weight.
bonny
Well-Known Member
I’m sure the OP has got the message now and probably wishes she hadn’t posted at all. Why keep repeating the same thing over and over ?
Nasicus
Well-Known Member
Maybe they meant psychics, you know, the ones telling them their horses are happy with living in a cupboard.
I mean, that really depends on how low the bar has been set, doesn't it. Quite concerning to think there's a yard of horses out there being treated as described and worse...
Winters100
Well-Known Member
I agree, but I also suspect that every suggestion from the vet may have been met with the same attitude as here "won't do it", "can't afford it", "don't want to", so maybe he suggested this in desperation faced with an obese animal and a cruel and irresponsible owner
Upthecreek
Well-Known Member
Because clearly OP hasn’t got the message, doesn’t understand the message or thinks it doesn’t apply to her animals. Lots of people have made helpful suggestions on how she could improve the management of her horses and all have been met with excuses and an unwillingness to change anything to improve their quality of life. We all know the horrendous wet winter we are enduring is meaning reduced or zero turnout for many yards. It’s how you manage that to make it as good as it can possibly be for the horses that is the issue. OP is seemingly resistant to anything other than keeping the poor beasts stabled 23 plus hours a day. So yes sadly we’re all wasting our time because despite people repeatedly pointing out the problems and offering solutions she still cannot see that she is not meeting the most basic needs of her horses. And even worse claims they are happy and healthy.
Xanthoria
Well-Known Member
First of all, do your vet, farrier, instructor and physio all know that you keep the horses in 24/7 with practically no exercise? Have you told them?
Second, have you asked what they think of this?
I would bet the answer is no, and no. They probably don't know, and you have not volunteered the information.
Here's the deal: you are their paying customer. Unless you say "I am concerned this is not an ideal life for my horse - should I change this?" they are VERY unlikely to point out the truth because they risk losing money.
Time and again I have seen vets very obviously ignore their client's suffering animal or only obliquely suggest change. They are FAR more likely to suggest another treatment to keep old Dobbin going. We had a horse where I board who had been crippled for YEAR! He was almost non weight bearing on a leg, couldn't be trimmed even with sedation, and pathetically hobbled around getting skinnier and skinnier until he finally died on his own. His owner WOULD NOT hear it from anyone, saying the vet had not told her to euthanize him. Meanwhile vet told anyone who would listen how aggrieved she was to be treating an animal who should have been released a decade ago...
So no, unless you ask directly none of your paid service providers will say a darn thing. YOU are responsible for this situation - you cannot foist the responsibility onto someone else.
And in case you think I'm full of it, I just put down a stunning 7 year old WB with issues that meant he could not be turned out ever again, or be ridden, or even exercised (neurologic with 2 suspensories) and every single vet I discussed it with said that keeping a horse in a stall for the rest of it's life is cruel and a reason to euthanise - per the AAEP "A horse should not have to endure a lifetime of continuous individual box stall confinement for prevention or relief of unmanageable pain or suffering." https://aaep.org/horsehealth/euthanasia-most-difficult-decision
You're lucky - all you have to do is make an effort to change yards, sell one or more horses, ask for help from a loaner - all sorts of options are there. But you are choosing not to.
GSD Woman
Well-Known Member
I believe that I am the person that suggested "killing the horses." I did suggest euthanizing the horse with Cushings that can't be ridden to improve the lives of the other 2. I'm guessing that most of us have been in tight places with our animals and have had to have made tough choices.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
I'm trying not to repeat anything that's been said already but I've skimmed most posts so might have missed something, but has anyone suggested trying to find a sharer for the cob? I know you say she is bad to hack, but that does't mean you won't find someone. I'm sharing a horse who was advertised as very sharp to hack and whose owner was too scared to get back on him after fracturing her cheek bone after falling off him, and I love him. He's improved massively since I've been hacking him too. That would at least get her out of her stable a bit more and I think, based on the way she is kept, movement is probably the key thing that will make a difference to her weight loss.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
You are absolutely right of course, but the reason that OP has come in for such harsh criticism is that she rejects every perfectly sensible suggestion to improve the quality of life of her horses. In respect to a sharer she says that there is no one in the area that she can trust to ride her horses or to look after them as she does. She has delusions that she is the only one who can ride them and that they are among the best kept on the yard. She says that they do not need exercise, that they are healthy and happy. So so sad for the poor animals.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I made that choice 4 years ago for a very much adored 20yo with advancing cushings. He got to the point he was loosing weight and continually teetering on the edge of laminitis. I wasn’t prepared to keep my best friend living a life stiffening up in a stable/small bare paddock, what sort of a life is that. He had a last month in a big field with mates and went knowing no different.
It wasn’t even a financial decision, just a quality of life one.
Too many would have kept him going for too long
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know. I was just saying in general from my perspective working on a yard and/or doing my own care of my horse on a yard. When yard owners are against turnout, I don't fully understand because like I said, I think it makes things easier when caring for the actual stable and doing chores such as cleaning. However, I do know that many do not turnout for the sake of not ruining their fields.
But also, and I rant about this here too because we also have wet climate, you know that it is wet and muddy here about 6 months or so out of the year. Yet every year everyone acts surprised and unprepared. Yards cannot, for whatever reason (maybe cost - even though liveries would pay more for this) cannot seem to construct appropriately drained or all weather paddocks. You know the climate, you know the landscape, why build your stable to be a mud pit? I don't know. A local stable recently redid their paddocsk - incorrectly. They are still mud pits and for the money they spent, it wouldn't have been hard to grade the land, make drainage, or use appropriate footing, but I guess it is better to spend nearly the same amount of money doing it the wrong way? I don't know.
Just a personal rant, not really at the OP.
Ruddyreindeer
Well-Known Member
This situation is just so infuriating! Most of us know that this horse is in a poor situation. The owner knows too but totally refuses to aknowledge the fact! Head and brick wall come to mind. If you cannot, for whatever reason, offer an animal a good quality of life ie. give it a lifestyle suitable for it's species, then don't take it on, or find another owner who can.
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