Clonked a car with the carriage :(

By the definition of a RTC it was not a Road Accident, as that means that owing to the presence of a motor vehicle on a road an accident occurred where damage/injury was caused to a third party (as in not the car that is on the road, or passengers).

In this case it sounds like there was no damage to your carriage or pony, so that definition is not fulfilled. Therefore no RTC, just damage caused by your pony being "momentarily distracted" meaning you lost control of direction. The car does not have to give you his insurance details, that would only be if you were injured. If you pay for the damage they will not lose their no claims. It is different to an RTC.

TBH, as the car had almost cleared the vehicles and was pulling back in, they had taken the road, and you say that if the pony had not been "momentarily distracted" you would not have hit the car by momentarily losing control, it would seem to me (I believe a "reasonable person") that you are the one with the pony, you are the one with specialist knowledge of what you need as regards space on the road, it sounds like you know horses are flight animals and maybe could have hung back? The car gave room for you, was driving in a normal manner. The car driver does not know the specialist needs of your pony. You have not insinuated that the driver was driving in anything other than a reasonable manner. If the car had left you insufficient room then that would be different. It sound like he was even on his own side of the road?

If it were me I would just pay up. If it was above the excess I would do it through my insurance. If the insurance thought it was the car's fault they would take the mater up.

If I were the car driver I would be livid. Not necessarily by the "momentary distraction" and subsequent loss of control of direction causing damage to my car and worry and inconvenience, but also the unwillingness of the offending party to take responsibility for their mistake.

Accidents happen, that is why we pay insurance. Accidents are less upsetting for all concerned if people are right with each other.
 
Deleted, I replied to another post, which did not quote on my post, and had now disappeared!

My post did not make sense without the quote!
 
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Red-1 said:
I think this is incorrect, as in some cases cars have been found to have been at fault at court when passing far too close to horses.

That does not seem to have been the case here though, it sounds like the car was driving responsibly.
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In those cases I think you will find the cars spooked the horses this is not so in this case .
 
That's what I was thinking. If it had been a ridden horse, just how close to the horse was the car passing, maybe it was slow, but not the 'wide and slow' we would like them to be. I ride and drive my pony. When riding MOST vehicles give a reasonably large distance as they pass but when driving they tend not to think of the horse as a living animal and squeeze through the tightest of gaps and stop inches from the back of the vehicle at junctions. Note, I'm not commenting on whose fault it was in this case.
 
I think OP you are clutching at big pile of non existent straws, please be honest with yourself and the other party who you previously admitted were not at fault. I am concerned that your story has already changed slightly.
 
Sorry, but you're going to have to pay for that one way or another. It wouldn't fly if a bicycle wobbled and scratched my car, so it certainly wouldn't fly in this situation.
 
If I was driving and was 'momentarily distracted' by kids screaming in the back or a deer running out or my phone ringing or any of 100 other out of my control things and that distraction caused me to swerve into an oncoming vehicle - it would still be my fault. TBH if insurance co's get involved you're right it'll cost you a fortune so I'd be on the phone this am asking whether they'd like you to pay garage direct etc. and see if you can pay in full directly and avoid all the extra costs the insurance route might take.

I had a van hit my 7.5 tonne horse box head one (going so fast in 30 zone they snapped the front axil!) they were clearly on my side of the road from photos afterwards, police drawings of the scene and independent witnesses. This was settled 50;50 - which I was livid about. In the situation you described I'm afraid it's 100% down to you.
 
I'm sorry but I'm gobsmacked that you're trying to deny fault. No wonder the horsey world gets a bad name.... I would be fuming if it were my car.

If it's just a little scratch on the car, just pay!?
 
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muckypony said:
I'm sorry but I'm gobsmacked that you're trying to deny fault. No wonder the horsey world gets a bad name.... I would be fuming if it were my car.

If it's just a little scratch on the car, just pay!?
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This. I'm shocked, thread has left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
 
Ranyhyn said:
This. I'm shocked, thread has left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
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Likewise.

From what you have explained, the pony is to blame. Out of your control, yes I suppose. BUT the pony was at fault and you own the pony and therefore it is your problem to deal with.

If your horse got lose and scratched someone's car would you say "Oh not my fault!!" and leave the poor sod to pay for it despite YOUR pony damaging?

This thread is bonkers. I'd be gutted if this happened to me and offer to pay up there and then, as well as being massively apologetic. Horses and ponies on the road are already seen as a massive nuisance and if people go around denying liability like this then I'm not surprised why people dislike horses/ponies being on the roads!!
 
pennyturner said:
Village in question is very narrow, with parked cars allowing only 7 or 8 feet for traffic. They had just cleared the parked cars so perhaps not quite right into the side. TBH everyone was driving well, and it was sheer bad luck that they were that close in a tight spot.
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Why did you not hang back from the line of parked cars, to allow more room for the car coming towards you to fully return to its own side of the road after passing them? Sounds, from what you have posted, like you had got too close to the very narrow section, leaving no room for error.

Also, I don't drive, but you are very brave taking a carriage up such a narrow road lined with parked cars, anyway.
 
As I said this nearly happened to us only it was a parked car.

I am sorry OP but you said in your post
he took a start at a pile of twigs just inside a gate; just a single quick step sideways, but enough to take us into the side of a car.
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You admit fault here, the other car did not swerve into you did they?

I am amusing the car was traveling towards you as in a narrow lane like you said a car would not be under taking but they could be over taking. If they were over taking in a bad place like double yellow line or bend then I would say it was 50/50 fault. A " tight spot" you said in your post does not really give us the type of surrounds you incurred.

If The road was wide enough and good visibility then the car should have given you more room to step sideways as a " step sideways " can mean anything from 1ft to 3ft. I hope you have one of these on your carriage -http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Horse-Driving-Carriage-Hi-Viz-Road-Safety-Banner-approx-24-x-12-hard-wearing-/121520717516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&var=&hash=item1c4b32fecc.

You have not really given us much detail to go on but in hindsight it sounds like 50/50 - but if the driver did go round you wide and your pony shied out across the road then that is a different scenario and it is not the drivers fault.
 
My horse did a fair bit of damage to a car (over £2k) whilst I was riding him. I admitted liability as they were stationary at the time and my horse jumped onto their car, so how could they have been at fault? I passed my insurance details (through BHS - pretty useless actually) to them and it was sorted out, eventually.

They were somewhat inconvenienced, partly due to the inefficient insurers, it was stressful for all concerned but they had their car repaired and as far as I know, no one was any worse off after it was all sorted out. Which is the point of third party insurance.

Slightly different, but I was in a stationary car which was hit by an idiot trying to squeeze through a gap that wasn't there. They tried to go knock for knock, but as I had witnesses to say I was stopped at the time, they failed and their insurance paid out for the damage.
 
Your thread title says it all. "Clonked a car with the carriage" That tells me, your carriage hit a car. Just pay for the damage, which seems to get less and less as the thread goes on.
 
OP - had the car fully cleared the parked cars? Had it returned to it's own side of the road fully? If not with hindsight you maybe should have allowed it a little more time to move back onto it's own side of the road. Replace the word "fault" with "liability" and it seems like it is probably that your carriage was liable for the damage to the driver's car so I suspect your insurers will end up having to pay. If you don't want to go through the insurance, ask the vehicle driver to get some quotes that he is happy with and then see if you can afford it or whether you want to have a claim against your insurance. Unfortunately some little dents and scratches can end up being more expensive than they appear - I had a flatbed lorry reverse over my car a while ago. It only looked initially like a scratch. The driver said that he had a "mate" who could fix it for me. I refused as it was his fault and it went through his employer's insurance. The damage was in the region of £800.
 
surely this is a 3rd party liability claim? OP every time we take a horse on the roads, ridden or driven you are accepting the risk that it is an unpredictable animal and thus you take on the responsibility for any resulting incidents that occur. Of course you are at fault!
 
pennyturner said:
For obvious reasons, I don't want to second guess liability.
Thinking about it, the pony stopped in a 'whassat' kind of way. As we connected, the shafts and forecarriage were pointing slightly away from the car, such that I was able to ask him to take a step forward to get clear. It was the driver's foot-plate which was in contact. It would be a stretch to describe him as 'out of control'. More like 'momentarily distracted'.

In car accidents, unless it's a rear-end shunt insurers often agree to split the claim - but I think this is an industry agreement to reduce legal fees, and push both partie's premiums up.
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If one car swerved into the other one, it wouldn't be a "knock for knock" situation I'm sorry. It would be the driver who veered into the other car who is at fault. As you own the pony, and we're in control of it at the time it is your responsibility to ensure it is safe on the roads and causes no accidents.
 
Many people are misunderstanding the point of my original post, which wasn't about liability (which I may not admit, no matter what the circumstances, hence some of my earlier comments have been jumped on - I'm following rules laid down by insurance). If I had wanted to avoid responsibility I could have trotted off and denied all knowledge. (Can't av been me, must av bin me bruvver. etc.). I wanted to hear stories of how others in a similar situation had minimised the cost and inconvenience, whether better to use their insurance etc. My fear is that involving more than one insurance company might actually make it harder/more expensive/slower.

Interesting to hear that BHS (which is similar to BDS) has settled similar claims, although not always quickly by the sound of it.
 
The insurance companies will sort it quicker together than going through a middle man if thats the way its going .It wont delay the other person getting their car fixed and wont alter how much it costs you. Unless you are prepared to pick up the whole bill for the repairs there is no way the insurance wont be involved. There vehicle will be repaired by their insurance company who will then claim from you personally I suspect so you will then have to pass that on to the BDS . The wrangling will happen after the repairs are done,and the BDS insurance will not be involved at all organising those repairs.
To be quite honest if it is literally a scratch it will not be very expensive to repair so maybe easier for you to just pay , you will need to be quick they insurance companies once contacted wont hang around long organising repairs .
Do you have full cover with them or just 3rd party liability?
First thing tomorrow you should get in touch with the BDS and tell them there will be a claim against you. Ill tell you now they will not be pleased you have been on here discussing it but that damage is already done.

Just wish to add that if it is a scratch it will be a lot less than the £500 excess you have to pay on the BDS policy
 
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You have to be a gold member of the BHS at the time of the incident for the insurance to be valid, not retrospectively.

Do you have third party cover OP??

You seem lacking in taking responsibility for your horses actions.

If in your situation I would ask the driver if they wanted me to pay outright for the repairs or insurance. They're the ones that have been inconvenienced with the damage.
 
JustKickOn said:
You have to be a gold member of the BHS at the time of the incident for the insurance to be valid, not retrospectively.

Do you have third party cover OP??

You seem lacking in taking responsibility for your horses actions.

If in your situation I would ask the driver if they wanted me to pay outright for the repairs or insurance. They're the ones that have been inconvenienced with the damage.
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I believe the OP has BDS membership which includes 3rd party cover .
OP do you have home insurance with any liability cover as the excess may be less? If you have you will have to claim off that policy anyhow as the BDS like the BHS are only TPL cover of last resort so they will only pay out if you have no other insurance that would cover your liability.
 
pennyturner said:
I wanted to hear stories of how others in a similar situation had minimised the cost and inconvenience, whether better to use their insurance etc. My fear is that involving more than one insurance company might actually make it harder/more expensive/slower.
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Cheapest possible would be not to involve any insurance companies, if you get their car repaired for them no need to involve anyone at all other than the 2 parties involved and the garage. If they've already told their insurance co there's no option to look to this route.

I have pranged cars in minor ways as a kid and always just wrote a cheque direct to avoid the extra costs involving any insurance co involves.

If you're insured then find out how much is your excess, if it's more than the cost of the repair then tell your insurance co you want to deal direct
 
If your carriage deviated from its line into the car I cannot see how it would be anyone's liability but your own!

Of course you didn't mean it to happen, and of course it was an unfortunate set of circumstances - but accidents happen, and is why it is essential to have 3rd party liability.

Give BDS a call. Explain the circumstances and then follow their advice.
 
pennyturner said:
Many people are misunderstanding the point of my original post, which wasn't about liability (which I may not admit, no matter what the circumstances, hence some of my earlier comments have been jumped on - I'm following rules laid down by insurance). If I had wanted to avoid responsibility I could have trotted off and denied all knowledge. (Can't av been me, must av bin me bruvver. etc.). I wanted to hear stories of how others in a similar situation had minimised the cost and inconvenience, whether better to use their insurance etc. My fear is that involving more than one insurance company might actually make it harder/more expensive/slower.

Interesting to hear that BHS (which is similar to BDS) has settled similar claims, although not always quickly by the sound of it.
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Unfortunately in situations (no matter how accidental or unfortunate) where you cause the damage, there is no way to minimise the cost or inconvenience (without being dishonest). You really just have to put it down as a life experience, pay up and move on. You're lucky that you're being given a choice to go through insurance or privately IMO, many would not have even given you the choice given that the accident was (seemingly, not wanting to make assumptions) your fault.

A couple of months ago, I was behind someone at a junction in my car. They went to pull out, so I looked the other way for my own gap and stupidly didn't realise they'd slammed their breaks on so I went straight into the back of them. Both cars, the other driver and myself were fine which is all I really care about in that situation. Yes it was frustrating but it was my fault and I wouldn't have even considered claiming anything otherwise or trying to minimise the cost or inconvenience to myself. I chalked it up as a life experience and took a chunk of my precious house savings to pay my excess.

Look at this way, your carriage is seemingly undamaged, yourself, the other driver and not to mention your beloved pony are all OK. Things could have been much, much worse. I really feel that a reality check is in order here. Pay up, wash your hands of it and get back to enjoying your pony. The longer you look for a solution (that likely doesn't exist), the longer it'll be hanging over you.
 
beth21 said:
Unfortunately in situations (no matter how accidental or unfortunate) where you cause the damage, there is no way to minimise the cost or inconvenience (without being dishonest). You really just have to put it down as a life experience, pay up and move on. You're lucky that you're being given a choice to go through insurance or privately IMO, many would not have even given you the choice given that the accident was (seemingly, not wanting to make assumptions) your fault.

A couple of months ago, I was behind someone at a junction in my car. They went to pull out, so I looked the other way for my own gap and stupidly didn't realise they'd slammed their breaks on so I went straight into the back of them. Both cars, the other driver and myself were fine which is all I really care about in that situation. Yes it was frustrating but it was my fault and I wouldn't have even considered claiming anything otherwise or trying to minimise the cost or inconvenience to myself. I chalked it up as a life experience and took a chunk of my precious house savings to pay my excess.

Look at this way, your carriage is seemingly undamaged, yourself, the other driver and not to mention your beloved pony are all OK. Things could have been much, much worse. I really feel that a reality check is in order here. Pay up, wash your hands of it and get back to enjoying your pony. The longer you look for a solution (that likely doesn't exist), the longer it'll be hanging over you.
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Not trying to avoid anything. Just looking for best outcome. But you're right, given the hazards of carriage driving, in the overall scheme of things, all that matters is nobody hurt (two of my kids were on board at the time). Don't really care about the carriage either, particularly. I've been driving long enough to know that much worse can happen!
 
pennyturner said:
Not trying to avoid anything. Just looking for best outcome. But you're right, given the hazards of carriage driving, in the overall scheme of things, all that matters is nobody hurt (two of my kids were on board at the time). Don't really care about the carriage either, particularly. I've been driving long enough to know that much worse can happen!
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Whilst it was just an unfortunate accident and you more than likely didnt do anything wrong and nor did the driver ( although i am sure you are both kicking yourselves for not having just one given way to the other seeing how narrow the lane was) but you are liable OP as your carriage deviated from its course and caused the damage. I find your suggestion that you give a contribution to the other drivers repair costs to be very unreasonable and frankly it does seem like you are trying to weasle out of taking responsibility. If the car driver is willing not to go through insurers then you should be paying for all their repairs. If they go through insurers then you will probably still have to pay an excess.
 
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