Coffins and corners in a BE80

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chocolategirl

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Hi anyone ever known there to be a ditch, one stride to a rail, then a corner later on in the course at a BE80? Was very surprised to find this at Frenchfield yesterday. It was very technical and caught our very green horse out. We were still very chuffed with him though as he did the ditch, us as the steering isn’t quite perfect yet, daughter just couldn’t make the one stride to the little rail afterwards. Came round a second time a bit slower and jumped it fab. Went on to do the corner no problem too but was just very surprised at the technical aspect at this level. Looking at the results, there were a lot of eliminations which doesn’t surprise me. I thought that level was all about encouraging young/green horses and/or nervous/ novice riders?
 
It is an affiliated event and you'll find those questions at all levels, they're just presented in a friendlier way at 80. Eg it looks like there was an alternative at the (very small) corner. Yes it should be encouraging and inviting but equally it needs to ask a question or people will progress and find something much harder at a bigger height where the stakes are higher. Unaffiliated events are the place to get mileage on a novice horse/ rider really, IMO
 
Um, well it doesn't sound that technical to be honest - I suppose only having one stride after a ditch to a rail is a bit mean as it's sure to catch out those with a horse that balloons the ditch, but I don't think it's an unreasonable question to put on the course
 
Ah right I see, it’s just that my daughter has been eventing now for 5 years up to 100 on 3 different horses ( I used to event at novice in my younger days lol!)and she’s done numerous 80’s with the 2 older ones, but this is the first time we have come across a ditch in an 80? Guess we’ve just been lucky up to now huh?! Just need to work on his steering now and he’ll move up the levels very quickly as he’s fairly talented, if sometimes a little too enthusiastic!
 
DabDab said:
Um, well it doesn't sound that technical to be honest - I suppose only having one stride after a ditch to a rail is a bit mean as it's sure to catch out those with a horse that balloons the ditch, but I don't think it's an unreasonable question to put on the course
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Which is exactly what he did! The rail just wasn’t on his radar lol!
 
BE have a list of stuff you can expect to find at each level. I would consult that and make sure you are ready for what they say you may find.

I can't see a problem with what you describe, as long as it is within height and the ditch not too gawping. A corner can be very soft, more like a spread with an easy bit at the side.

The list somewhere on the website will tell you what is suitable.
 
A friends horse did Frenchfield and she commented that it was a very technical course for an 80 - not a first competition by any means! By comparison a lot of 80 courses I’ve seen have corners but don’t seem to have full coffins - maybe a ditch with a rail after instead? My friend said that fence 2 caught a lot of people out
 
The cumbrian events nearly always have a ditch in the 80's. Not the hardest 80 I have done... that was hendersyde with 2 water combinations... however it was fun to ride.
The corner was pretty basic... the coursebuilder has put worse inhis 80's before. However it was quite big for an 80... it shared a lot with the 90 so most of it was max height and dimension.
My horse stopped at the chase fence due to getting his knickers in a twist going over the bridge before it... the 100 chase fence was easier!
The 90 was very basic... good for first timers at that level.
 
Was it meant to be two strides? My friend as was laughing that she took it as 1 stride and a flyer rather than the recommended two in the 90?

Not that I know anything about eventing!
 
I just looked at the course photos and I thought the corner looked fairly straightforward. The ditch to rail - again difficult to tell from a photo but it looks more than one stride away, and open and obvious as a question so not something that is out of the ordinary :)
 
dominobrown said:
It was 2 strides... or it is meant to be.
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Yes daughter said when she walked it she thought it was 2 (I didn’t get to walk it unfortunately) but it must have felt like 1 as he jumped it so big. At least it’s been a lesson well learned, expect the unexpected! Had a chat to our trainer today who has evented up to 1 star, and she was also surprised about there being an open ditch. Don’t suppose anyone knows where on the BE website it tells you what type of fences to expect? I have looked but can’t see it so I’m obviously being a numpty and missing it :-/ thanks for all the replies/opinions so far, it would appear I’m in the wrong as per!
 
Lévrier;13767341 said:
I’ve never seen such a list - other than the guidelines in the rule book? I’d be interested to see it too :)
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One of the replies seemed to think there’s a list of what to expect?? I think the reason I’ve got a bit of a bee in my bonnet about it is had we realised we should expect to find a half coffin at the level, we would have done our homework better! It’s so darned expensive now, I hate that we were ill prepared for it. Someone posted earlier that we should be doing unaffiliated comps if our horse is young/ green and inexperienced, but if this is the case, what’s the point of BE80T’s? I thought the T stood for training?!
 
To be fair I think the ditch caught a few people out (there are some hilarious pictures on grossick phtography) as it was pretty big but very 'new' looking. Its had very white stones in the bortom of it. I did the 90cm and the 80cm but niether of my horses are the least bit ditchy though the green 80 horse had a tiny look and jumped it a touch big.
Heads up.... there will be a very similar ditch combo at warwick hall, and the corner is often not as friendly. Any other questions about courses or event just post on here as we collectively have been to them all :)
 
We have been talking about this in the US too. Here we call it "Level Creep" as in the questions from the upper levels are creeping their way down.

There was a BN course with a ridiculously inappropriate bank out of a water and 2 strides to a narrow in the woods. It rode well but that's not the point is it? Green/young horses and riders need to be allowed to do things slower and more methodically before we start adding to their ledger.

I have a lot of friends with laundry lists of extreme examples.

Makes me long for the days gone by.

Em
 
It would be interesting to have this discussion with course designers- are the courses at lower levels getting more technical and challenging and if so what is the reason?
I acknowledge that part of the process is to help riders go up the levels but surely this first level should be intended to introduce new combinations and green horses to the sport in an encouraging way. If the level is too technical or too challenging (for the entry level) then it is more likely to discourage riders from continuing or moving up.
I wonder if course designers are looking at combinations who are remaining at this level (and who possibly make up most of the entries at this level) rather than new combinations. and building for this market?
 
My long striding horse got a short 2 in the ditch, rail combination. If you are planning other 80s in the region I'm sure Warwick hall also has a similar combination and I think their may be a small ditch at Dalston green too. We were parked next to fence 2 which caught a lot of people out. It was a lovely course though and rode really well. Perhaps not ideal for someone doing their first event but perfect my my horse who had just come back from 18 months off with an injury.
 
VRIN said:
It would be interesting to have this discussion with course designers- are the courses at lower levels getting more technical and challenging and if so what is the reason?
I acknowledge that part of the process is to help riders go up the levels but surely this first level should be intended to introduce new combinations and green horses to the sport in an encouraging way. If the level is too technical or too challenging (for the entry level) then it is more likely to discourage riders from continuing or moving up.
I wonder if course designers are looking at combinations who are remaining at this level (and who possibly make up most of the entries at this level) rather than new combinations. and building for this market?
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Entry level when I started was Novice, gradually it has come down to what is now BE80t the problem for the organisers/ course builders is how to build for people who are not prepared, they cannot keep making everything easier to suit those who have not had the correct training to be ready to deal with what is essentially a simple combination, if it has nothing technical then what will the riders learn and take on to the next level, if the course is too straightforward some will end up going too fast yes they get penalties but they need to have fences to set up for so they learn how to ride xc, looking at the results rather too many of the clears did go too fast and apart from 1 section most got round clear or with just one stop although a worrying amount of those eliminated were unseated.

I have no idea what the answer is but if it is made too easy then nothing is learned from the competition, not everyone will have a clear round yet most will be more than happy if they get round and take something away to work on before the next time, that should be the objective for most inexperienced riders , if the jumping phases are too straightforward people will moan that it is a dressage competition and the well trained horses on the flat will beat those well educated for the jumping phase who are less flashy for the dressage which is the only part that is subjective and down to a person to decide.
 
I really can't see that a ditch with two strides to a low rail can be classed as technical for and affiliated event.
To me ditches should be part of the very early schooling of horses (and riders).
 
be positive said:
Entry level when I started was Novice, gradually it has come down to what is now BE80t the problem for the organisers/ course builders is how to build for people who are not prepared, they cannot keep making everything easier to suit those who have not had the correct training to be ready to deal with what is essentially a simple combination, if it has nothing technical then what will the riders learn and take on to the next level.... not everyone will have a clear round yet most will be more than happy if they get round and take something away to work on before the next time, that should be the objective for most inexperienced riders ,
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This!

In my view, entry level for affiliated competition should not not mean easy or they might as well have BE60s. Or BE 45s. I am right at the start of my eventing adventures and I always saw the transition from unaffiliated competitions over inviting, easy courses as the preparation for BE.

It is very useful that the list of requirements is available - (reproduced so people don't have to scroll back!)
BE80T
Course Length - 1600 – 2800m
Speed - 435mpm
Jumping Efforts - 18 – 25
Max Height - 0.80m
Max Top Spread - 0.90m
Max Base Spread - 1.25m
Max Spread (no height i.e. ditch) - 1.00m
Max Height Fence with Drop - 1.20m
Max Depth of water - 0.20m

This meant I knew what I needed to train over before my first 80T. (That said the ski-jump at Kelsall was still horrible! Not ever dropped onto a steep slope before.)

There are many unaffiliated competitions for people/horses/combinations not ready for a full up BE80T course. (Some of those actually include fences not allowed in BE80 like drops into water which is annoying, but many are nice easy courses with inviting fences.) I took part in unaff events for 2 years before feeling ready to affiliate.

Each level should feel like a progression from the previous level and preparation for the next.
 
Sorry but (in the interests of healthy debate only :) ) I disagree - 90% of the unaff ODEs around me are over BE courses and use the same fences, so you get the same questions at a slightly reduced fee? So there are not the opportunities to compete over ‘easier’ courses as a preparation for BE like there used to be
 
It's a tricky one isn't it. When I started eventing, Intro was a new thing so that's where we started...and I was dragged up by someone who, as BP says, started at Novice so she was a big influence on me.
There wasn't a lot of unaff around then either, I don't remember doing any unaff ODES on Millie at all and probably the stuff I trained over was about 90cm. I was SJing 1m + and built xc style fences in the field so we were well prepared. I do agree with AE on this I think, I don't think I would have particularly wanted to spend BE prices doing a 60cm (say!) ODE, when we were jumping 60cm that was very early into her jump training and the time was better spent doing clear round jumping and learning to canter in open ground in balance :)
 
Lévrier;13767503 said:
Sorry but (in the interests of healthy debate only :) ) I disagree - 90% of the unaff ODEs around me are over BE courses and use the same fences, so you get the same questions at a slightly reduced fee? So there are not the opportunities to compete over ‘easier’ courses as a preparation for BE like there used to be
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The same in my area and some of the unaff are tougher because there are no rules to follow, a few places will put in something out of context just to make a change to the BE course or use a fence that doesn't get used otherwise, one local course, not BE, has one really nasty drop that causes so much trouble including a fatal horse fall, but that still doesn't mean the riders cannot prepare before going BE or that they don't have the chance to learn how to ride at the correct speed and adjust/ prepare for the trickier fences, that is why we use trainers/ go to clinics etc.

BE80t should be a stepping stone, as AE said, an inexperienced combination should take something away from every event and use the experience to help prepare for the next one, a stop or two is not a failure or fault of the course but part of the learning process, if everyone went clear as I said before it just becomes a dressage test.
 
Thinking about it, I did an unaff ODE last year and a hunter trials this year over a smaller course (70cm!!!) and there was a corner in both of them, obviously in a rather simplified form to account for the height of the course.

Also many years ago we had a local hunter trials course (as used by Lucinda Green for XC training!) and there was a full coffin - sorry rail/ditch/rail - fence for the 2'9" and 3' classes as they were in those days.

So maybe not that unusual? I know I am very lucky in being on the yard I am on, I often jump simulated corner fences which have been kindly set up in the arena! We also now have our own trakhener in one of the fields which I cannot wait to try once the rain stops, that should really help us :)
 
Lévrier;13767503 said:
Sorry but (in the interests of healthy debate only :) ) I disagree - 90% of the unaff ODEs around me are over BE courses and use the same fences, so you get the same questions at a slightly reduced fee? So there are not the opportunities to compete over ‘easier’ courses as a preparation for BE like there used to be
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Maybe it depends where you live?

We have quite a few small unaff courses that are a useful introduction to eventing without the 'questions'.

Smallwood ODE runs over 65 and 80cm. You can jump any 65 fence in the 80 for additional time penalties if you fancy the 80 but there are 1 or 2 fences thay you aren't keen on. All very inviting fences. That was my daughter's first 80 and was very good.

http://www.smallwoodliverycentre.co.uk/cross_country.html

Wilmslow run events throughout the season too with inviting and straightofrward fences.

Derby Equestrian College run ODE's and HTs all season though they are under-height. Annoying when you go all that way to jump 30cm fences instead of 65cm ones! But it is a good introduction.

There is one venue near me (Eland Lodge) that run unaff comps over the BE course but they start at 70cm so you can do the more techincal fences at a less scary height to get you started. My kids are doing a 7cm ODE there this Sunday weather permitting.

So maybe I am just lucky living where I do?
 
I've done a few 80s and have come across a ditch to rail combo on all the courses I have done. Not seen a corner at 80 level, but as long as it is kind and with an alternative (which most corners have at the lower levels) then I don't see the issue.
I started eventing at 90 (or Intro back then!) back in 2003, and the courses were much more simple back then. At Tweseldown for example, quite a few of the fences I jumped in the PN back in 2004/5 were in the Intro/90 course when they first started doing that level for BE some years later.
Even at 80 level at BE, I would want to be schooling over some 90 fences and include some more technical fences for that level (so coffin/half coffin, corners, narrow fences etc) so you are fully prepared. Just because the jumps are relatively small, does not they will all be easy, or as someone else said, it would be even more of a dressage competition.
 
I was reading this yesterday thinking well most unaff 80 I've been too (also run on BE courses but set by PCs etc) are far trickier than that, not unusual to get a full coffin, a couple of skinnies on a curving line, corners etc. Been known to require to jump into water over roll tops.
I am struggling to see why a two stride combination and a corner would be a problem.
 
AandK said:
Not seen a corner at 80 level,.
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Eland Lodge has a corner on the 80T. It is usually black-flagged as you say. But not always.

31143754_1647136862035493_8517781836207884993_n.jpg


And a ditch to palisade making full use of the brush rule! Also sometimes but not always bacl flagged.

20479518_1479706592109417_6739495519384138938_n.jpg
 
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