Colic surgery or PTS, do we really have any choice

[Happy Horse]

It must be down to where the surgeries are carried out because our figures were nowhere even near that. I wouldn't want surgery at anywhere other than a specialist Equine Hospital with 24 hour nursing care but I certainly wouldn't be ruling it out full stop as many people here seem to be. I can't believe outcomes have deteriorated that much in the 10 years since I left.

 

[rhino]

Would they? I guess so. Me being a bit dim, basing it on assumptions from having read other people's posts.

Sorry!

Only if they meet the BEVA criteria for humane destruction

"That the horse sustains an injury or manifests an illness or disease that is so severe as to warrant immediate destruction to relieve incurable and excessive pain and that no other options of treatment are available to that horse at that time."

 

[Super_Kat]

Out of my 4 uninsured neddies it's only woody, my absolute pride and joy I'd consider sending for surgery (one horse I don't care enough for to get into that much debt and I don't think the other two would cope happily with the aftercare) but I'm not sure if I'd give him the chance, despite my own vets operating theatre being 40 minutes down the road, given how high the post op mortality rate is. You're just risking more suffering

 

[brucea]

Known 3 horses go through it. All died, two during and one a few weeks later.

No, painful and devastating as it would be to lose any of my lads, I would not put them through it.

Insurance companies need a kick up the ass in my opinion. Their actions and policy rules are probably the worst thing for horse welfare. Too many owners are guided by what insurance will or won't pay out for, rather than what is best for the animal and what actually works.

For instance, insurance companies will pay for a whole year of intrusive and expensive treatment for Navicular, and remedial farriery, and still have a lame and unhappy horse a the end of the year when the money runs out. But they won't pay for barefoot rehabilitation that has an almost 100% success rate!

Mine are no longer insured for vets fees - the costs were getting ridiculous and the exclusions silly. So I put the money I was spending aside into a special account. That way I am in control, the uncertainty is removed, but the risk is mine.

 

[Zerotolerance]

See my post in the other Colic topic

 

[Mitchyden]

I would never put another horse through surgery after I lost my beautiful Tilly three and a half years ago.

She had surgery in November 2007 and came home 9 days later. She was classed as a success and I was over the moon. She had twice weekly visits from the vet and he told me that if a horse leaves The Royal Veterinary College it is classed as a success but he warned me that most cases he'd dealt with had been pts within 6 months after being discharged.

She had 3 months of box rest with walking in hand four times a day followed by small paddock rest. I started working her after 4 months but she was never the same. She had always been a forward going horse but became nappy and the vet seemed to think it was adhesions. For the next couple of months I continued with the hacking but she wasn't happy and on the six month anniversary of the day she had surgery, she went down with colic. For 3 days we battled with her but she was miserable and I decided to call it a day.

After the insurance payment, I was still left with a £3000 bill and I most definitely would not put another of my horses through what she went through.

 

[AmyMay]

on the six month anniversary of the day she had surgery, she went down with colic. For 3 days we battled with her but she was miserable and I decided to call it a day.

Which begs the question - when do you call it a day?

3 days is a long time - although of course I understand that this was under veterinary supervision.

 

[Wagtail]

They would do this automatically. So no permission would be needed.

No they wouldn't. They need your permission to PTS. If need be they would telephone during the op if things looked really grim.

 

[superted1989]

Markie's insured, but I'm 50/50 if I'd be happy for surgery, the few horses I've personally known go through it haven't made it out of the recovery room.
However, if colic got to the point of surgery, it would have to be before 10pm at night and before 6am in the morning as there is a very limited amount of ferries available to get to 'horsepital'!

 

[Wishful]

Round here anything that's insured that has anything worse than a really mild spasmodic or impaction colic gets referred for monitoring pretty quickly - I'd imagine the IoW vets would have a similar attitude - they'd rather refer something "too early" than be stuck with no ferry - here it's just the 2 hr+ lorry trip causing concern.

 

[Shilasdair]

I'm not sure if I'm unlucky...or lucky...two of mine have had colic surgery (neither for anything management related, I hasten to add) and they both survived.
One was in 2007, the other about 18 months ago, the latter had a pretty serious and unusual type of colic.
The recovery wasn't too bad for either of them - both seemed to cope well with box rest, and when ready, went out into small grass enclosures for a little while, before I left them out for longer in bigger areas.
It was expensive, and you do need to be dedicated and disciplined to manage them in a way to keep them mentally happy - but it can be a success.
Oh, and no, Amymay, they won't PTS on the operating table without permission.
S

 

[Mitchyden]

Which begs the question - when do you call it a day?

3 days is a long time - although of course I understand that this was under veterinary supervision.

I know 3 days is a long time but she was a fighter, she'd had laminitis, a tendon injury, a suspected snake bite as well as colic in her last two years but she still looked as if she was fighting. But it was on the third day that her spark had gone and I knew it was time to say goodbye.

 

[Spottyappy]

16 years ago,my homebred boy had colic as a yearling. It was a specific type,excuse spelling, but intusception was the cause.Basically,the gut grows back inside itself.
He went to the RVC at Potters Bar. He had the op,and made such a good recovery was allowed home after just a week,not 2 as I'd been warned. Had 3 months box rest,being led out daily,buiding up as we progressed. He was an angel and coped fine with it. He had something like 20 staples under his belly,big ones!
The college warned me to feed a high fibre diet to avoid ulcers. I still do that,and have him here today.
He was insured,but that didn't cover the whole cost. Yes,I would do it again although circumstances would be taken into account as every horse is different. Age and health is an important consideration.
I was very lucky,and so was he. I hope he will continue to give me daily pleasure for many years to come.

 

[sodapop]

Didnt realise there was so much debate about colic surgery, my experience was positive.
I bought a lovely natured young arab, that unknown to me had never been wormed by her breeder; I came along wormed her and it nearly killed her due to the level of tapeworm burden. She was transported from stourbridge to Liverpool for surgery then I also had to wait 24hours to rule out grass sickness and was told that she would be PTS if it was grass sickness. It was a horrible time but she made a full recovery after months of box rest. Unless it was an elderly horse or there was some other impact factor I would do it again.

 

[Alfiem]

I wouldn't put mine through it. My vet knows this. I don't really care about the insurance money, just the welfare of the horse. I will be cancelling my insurance next year anyway, just keeping 3rd party liability, vets fees and death are a rip off anyway.

 

[cptrayes]

I wouldn't put mine through it. My vet knows this. I don't really care about the insurance money, just the welfare of the horse. I will be cancelling my insurance next year anyway, just keeping 3rd party liability, vets fees and death are a rip off anyway.

Alfie check your house insurance, you may already have 3rd party insurance on it, lots of policies do. If not, the cheapest way to get it is British Dressage Associate Membership. It does not matter if you do not want to compete at dressage.

I haven't insured for years, but you do need the strength of mind not to spend the money you would have paid on the premiums on anything else you fancy, and keep it in the bank. I know a lot of people who would have a real problem doing that!

In spite of losing one horse who cost me £2,500 and having another operated on for laryngeal hemiplegia at £2,200 I am massively "up" on what I would have paid in insurance premiums.

 

[Alfiem]

Alfie check your house insurance, you may already have 3rd party insurance on it, lots of policies do. If not, the cheapest way to get it is British Dressage Associate Membership. It does not matter if you do not want to compete at dressage.

I haven't insured for years, but you do need the strength of mind not to spend the money you would have paid on the premiums on anything else you fancy, and keep it in the bank. I know a lot of people who would have a real problem doing that!

In spite of losing one horse who cost me £2,500 and having another operated on for laryngeal hemiplegia at £2,200 I am massively "up" on what I would have paid in insurance premiums.

I want to join the BHS anyway so might as well go gold and have the insurance - I will also check my house policy, thanks.

I will put the money away into a seperate account, one I don't have a cashcard for, I have to go into the bank to draw it over the counter - that would put me off spending anything as I don't "do" going into town!!

 

[haras]

I put my mare through colic surgery last year. she is my really special, once in a lifetime horse and i felt i owed it to her to give her the chance to live.

She was however, on the table within 3 hours of first colicing, which can only have helped her.

She came through ok, spent 4 months on box rest (she does like her stable though) and went on to give birth to a healthy filly foal this year.

Would I do it again?

TBH, it depends on the horse, but I wouldn't rule it out as an option.

 

[SusieT]

You've got to weigh up that survival rates include all types of colic-and there are many. Some have really good survival rates. They also include all practices. There are going to be big places that do lots of surgery and so have the experience and they have higher success rates.

 

[Louby]

My last horse was in the middle of a LOU claim, one morning I got to the stables and she had horrific colic. After all the tests etc, it was decided she needed surgery. She was a bad traveller, had been colicking for hours (through the night) and was retired with ringbone at 8 yrs old and starting to struggle so I decided it was in her best interest to have her PTS. The insurance were fantastic and said I was to do what ever I wanted ie, surgery and continue with LOU or PTS and they would pay.

 

[eatmoremincepies]

Think it totally depends on the horse and the situation, type of colic etc. Sometimes the horse seems willing to fight and sometimes not . . Older horses often struggle to recover . . There are very definitely "wrong reasons" to go through with surgery IME, eg not having previously told child that ponies do sometimes die (!), feeling that child should not think that pony was being PTS because parents would not pay for surgery(!!), owner can't bear to lose an older horse that will struggle to recover . . Horses interests have to come first.

 

[supagran]

Haven't read all the replies (I'm at work and not supposed to be on here!) - but I would put through surgery once, but not twice. Had a mare a few years ago that had surgery, then after appearing to recover went back to theatre after 48 hours, only to have to be put down 24 hours later - if they don't recover well after first surgery I would PTS regardless of insurance.

 

[overtherainbow]

for me it depends on the horse, but mine came down with bad colic while i was away and so my parents sent her for surgery- she was incredibly lucky in that she started to show signs of improvement just before they properly anethetised her and so wasnt operated on. but if my parents had gone with pts, i wouldnt have her today several years later, for no real reason.

 

[Suechoccy]

I wouldn't put mine through it. Anyone borrowing my ned for an overnight trec or anyone looking after my neds if I'm away always has instructions for death/disposal including "no colic surgeries".

 

[eggs]

The answer is it depends. I have two of my homebreds operated on for colic - both had different types and reasons for going down with it.

My 3 year old was a very sick horse by the time we got him to Potters Bar (we found him colicking in the morning so do not know at what time during the night he started) but my vet thought it was definitely worth trying. Unfortunately he was pts in recovery as he was unable to get to his feet. He did have a significant resection.

My six year old was operated on and bounced back very quickly. Vets were very pleased with his recovery and due to the type of colic he had, he is very unlikely to have another episode. He however did not have to have a resection and was on the table three hours after he first started showing signs.

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

Just wanted to add when one of the liveries here took their uninsured horse to Oakham for colic surgery they wanted £5k upfront before they started Once they opened him up they found a huge tumour so he was PTS anyway

 

[scarymare]

They would do this automatically. So no permission would be needed.

Doubt it. I got phoned about my Great Dane who went in for hip x-ray. They found a mass, I said they could open him up but they still called to request permission to PTS once they had established the extent of the mass (liver/spleen cancer). Mind you I suppose if its colic they are already going in with the 'might not make it' conversation.

 

[Zerotolerance]

In 2006, my 'horse of a lifetime' aged 19, had colic for the first time ever in the 15 years I'd owned him. It was obviously serious, vet gave usual painkillers etc- but no response, so rushed him off to Arundel (about 1½ hours away), hoping he would be better when we got there. He wasn't, so opted for surgery. Having initially colicked at 8.30 pm, he was on the table by 3 am. Horrid drive home in empty lorry wondering if I'd see him again, then 4½ hours later, I got the call to say he'd come through surgery okay. He had a fatty lipoma growing on a stalk that had wrapped round his small intestine, also his caeceum was displaced. So 3 metres of small intestine removed and caeceum righted.
I spent every spare minute sitting with him at the hospital, he was completely unfazed by the whole experience and was back to his usual bitey self in a couple of days. His aftercare was quite unusual compared to what seems to be the trend lately. He was walking in hand round the car park within a couple of days and after 10 days in hospital was home. Was warned beforehand that he could lose up to 100 kgs in weight with the stress etc. He was weighed for the op at 612kg, 10 days later was 628kg - amazingly had put ON 16kg. No belly band or similar dressings - just 35 staples and wound left uncovered. Was then on walker 3 times a day, 20-30 mins a time. Progressed to lunging over next few months, trotting then cantering, building up very gradually. Turned out in pen for increasing periods daily. Was back riding after about 4 months. I installed an IP camera in his stable so I could monitor him 24/7. I have to say I was obsessive about the aftercare - kept a detailed diary of everything he did.

He's now 24 - its 5 years since the surgery on 30thNov/1st Dec and I treasure every single extra moment I've had with him. As to the decision on whether to operate or not, I think a lot depends on an individual horses attitude - mine had always been an opinionated little sod, full of his own importance. He almost enjoyed the stay in hospital - was in Box No 1, right in the entrance of course and clearly thought that all the attention he got was no more than he deserved.

I dread it happening again, but as the vets said - all horses have lipomas, so it could happen to him again today - or one of the others - or not at all.
The question I now have to deal with is what if it happened again - would I put him through it at his age? I actually can't give a definitive answer - if it came to it, I'd have to let him tell me.

 

[Luci07]

Interesting - my vets support colic surgery and I also had a horse that cae through it succesfuly. I have insurance but it would depend on which horse had it. I would not my old mare through it at 22 but prob would the younger one. I am really shocked about the stats though as thought they were higher. I am however very near lipahook...

 

[GTs]

In the US you have to try all avaliable medical treatment - you might remember one horse called Barbaro.