Colt for reasonable money?

SophieLouBee

SophieLouBee

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We are currently looking for a colt, rising 2/2yo, would have 3yo at push.

Dressage/event breeding, doesn't need to be the top of the top, I've looked at some nice homebreds too which I would consider, as I know what mares I'd eventually be putting him to when he's all growed up, infact, type is more important than anything else! Must must must be 16hh plus. That is my criteria, pretty wide spectrum right? You'd think I'd get a good choice, right? NO, all I seem to be finding are over-priced things that I like &/or nice cobblets that aren't what I'm looking for but are worth the money!


People, seem to have inflated values of what their horses are worth (see my stud reduction thread *sob*). I'd have had the colt mentioned on there and taken him home yesterday, but the silly beggar just wouldn't negotiate on price at all, I know I drive a hard bargain, but only because I *hope* I know my shizzle, as does my business partner. We are just not prepared to pay over-the-odds in this market.

We are rather out of the loop, so I need some contacts, sales, ideas, help?!

Where are all these cheap colts that no one wants?!
 
SophieLouBee said:
People, seem to have inflated values of what their horses are worth (see my stud reduction thread *sob*). I'd have had the colt mentioned on there and taken him home yesterday, but the silly beggar just wouldn't negotiate on price at all, I know I drive a hard bargain, but only because I *hope* I know my shizzle, as does my business partner. We are just not prepared to pay over-the-odds in this market.
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A horse is worth what a buyer is prepared to pay and what a seller is prepared to accept. I had a buyer come to look at a filly a month or two ago - they wanted 'top quality' to show at breed shows. They knew the price in advance.

They loved her and said she was FAR better than anything they'd seen - but the ones they'd been looking at were £1,000 - £1,500 cheaper. Would I take less? Mine was more than they wanted to pay! Well tough luck - I wasn't prepared to sell a GOOD filly for the same money as people were asking for fillies nowhere near as good! I'd rather keep her - or wait for a buyer who is prepared to pay a bit more to get quality.

You are the one who needs a reality check. Why should a breeder sell a colt with stallion potential for peanuts?? I would far rather geld a colt than sell him cheap because that cheap colt will end up 'in competition' with my own stallion - or other stallions which have been purchased for good money! Breeders who flood the market with cheap colts are cutting their own throats!

I geld most of my colts - because too often people who buy up bargain colts, stand them as cheap stallions - and often don't give them the care and management a stallion needs and deserves! I'd rather sell them as geldings.

And - BTW - there ARE a lot of cheap horses around at present - but most of them are cheap for a reason. And the reason is that there are too many 2nd quality horses out there. Good quality stock are still making decent money! As they should - they take time and cost a lot of money to breed, and produce well! So keep driving hard bargains - you'll either end up with a 2nd rate horse - or no horse!
 
^^^^^agreed. Two years ago I sold a good show Q yearling with her dam, to some people who did not know what a good bargain they were getting [both were ideal for them] obviously some kind person said "oh you have paid too much" [actually not actually paid for], so I got a phone call trying to re negotiate the price, I had to collect it and never got back the rugs books tack and so on that I handed over as a discount.
But I stuck it out and found her a perfect home, where she still is, and not yet even backed.
I would only breed if I was certain of the market and it has to be a premium market, as the true costs are really pretty scary, and one has to allow for "failures" and vet bills.
As a purchaser, I would only buy something of the best quality, but as I can't afford to go to a top breeder for what is going to be a cash costing hobby, I would look around for quite a while to get something which will suit the happy hacker market in two years, something kind, a bit flashy, and good conformation. I would not ever buy a colt to breed with for the reasons above.
 
I agree with Janet George but would be interested what you class as overpriced. Pm me if you prefer. I have a 2 year old colt. Bought at 6 months old as a stallion prospect. I know what I paid for him. What I have spent on him so far and have an idea of what it will cost to produce him. I also have foal stallion prospect. These are my 5th and 6th stallion prospects. I have cut the rest they didn't male what I wanted too. I have got another super colt on livery with me. Again a foal. potential stallion. His owner won't let him go for peanuts either
 
If a colt truely does have stallion potential (and many of them don't), then why on earth should they be 'cheap'?

For a colt to truely prove their worth as a sire, they should also be produced and prove themselves - not just sire foals simply because they have a pair of balls. This is NOT a cheap process and anyone who thinks owning a stallion is a 'cheap' option needs to wake up very quickly! Investing in the horse himself is just the start of the expense!
 
I am total agreement with Janet etc. What you are seeking is awell bred colt for cheap money to make you money. Try buying your own mare, then use a stallion with the bloodlines you desire. See exactly what that costs you from mare purchase to foal weaning, never mind the associated risks along the way. Then see how you feel if someone 'who knows their shizzle' comes along and offers you peanuts for it.
 
You're not getting anyone to agree with you here. I have a lovely colt, is he stallion potential? that remains to be seen. What is known is how much he's cost me to date - stud fee £650, AI £575, passport, microchip etc £230. I've kept the mare for a year, kept him for 6 months - will I sell him for peanuts - absolutely not! I would much rather geld and keep him than sell him for less than he's cost to get on the ground. If you're budget is not up to paying a realistic amount for a quality colt, I suggest you either save up or lower your sights.
 
Really do not wish to jump down the OP's throat here, but several points from the post really jump out. Forgive me if you did not intend these ideas to come out this way but... here we go go with what I think you should should look at as food for thought, maybe? :/

Dressage OR event bred, not needing to be top of the top - and that noone else wants? To me, you are describing the perfect reasons for gelding your future stallion before you have even found him. There are plenty out there that are bred for purpose, appear to be top of the top as youngsters and have plenty of people wanting them that STILL don't cut the mustard (or at least shouldn't).

Regarding the reasonable money aspect, I am confused. Recently I had a similar discussion with somebody looking to purchase a half decent 'article' (!!) that was advertised quite reasonably in price (in my oppinion, of course). In fact said viewer even stated that it was a fair price, but went on to say that because of the 'recession' and the 'current market conditions' they didnt feel it was right to pay too close to the asking price because they were basically after a 'credit crunch bargain'. I am not saying there are not some bargains to be found, but when I asked the person how the recession was effecting them (ie had they lost a job or similar) they couldnt answer. The current market is what it is, but when people are out looking for something which they think will ultimately have a high value to them I find it very rude that they are happy to try and fleece a breeder.

Also, in the same way that opting for a cheap stud fee is possibly the smallest corner to cut when trying to breed a foal, opting for a cheap youngster or bagging a bargain won't really make much difference to you in the end, if you are to produce your future stallion to his top potential you are going to have to speculate and awful lot more than that before you have a chance of starting to accumulate. As you are after a 2 or 3 year old at his eldest I assume here that it is because you do want to do all the work with him?

To be fair, in any market you will find some animals (and objects) are genuinely overpriced, and perhaps you have been unlucky in your hunt so far and have only found overrated 'rose tinted' colts that are overpriced because you already know they wont make the grade. But try to be fair, the more this industry tries to fleec and undercut itself, the longer it will take to get back on its feet properly.
 
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I agree totally with all the above, if you came to me with that sort of outlook looking to buy a stallion quality colt I simply would not sell it to you!!
Also if you are going about it this way you should buy the stallion first then buy mares to suit him, not have a bunch of mares and just get one horse to put to them all to to make a fast buck - conformationally they need to compliment each other, and you need the time to show what mares he suits and what qualities he throws so waiting 6 or so yrs to see how they turn out before people start to take notice, hence the reason not many stand a stallion most use well known ones where all the hard work has already been done!!! You can have the best looking colt in the world and him not pass anything on, young unproven stallions are a big gamble, he may not be even firing tadpoles - been there done that and resulted with a very expensive gelding!!!

If you are wanting to make money breeding then the only way really is to get good quality broodmares and put them to top stallions that compliment them and go from there - it costs a fortune to get a stallion out there doing his thing to make his offspring worth while - no-one is going to buy a youngster from someone who has just gone out and bought something cheap with nuts and put it to a load of mares - look at the market - there are a zillion of the same and look at the prices!!!

You pay for what you get and as a stallion is half your future stock, your advertising and potentially your income you really need to invest an awful lot or you are wasting your time and offending people by wanting their hard work etc for peanuts!!!
I have gelded every single colt I've bred because I don't want them ending up with people like you, I apologise if you have just come across badly, but from what you have put you sound like a back yard breeder - there is more to buying a colt and sticking it wth some mares!!!
Plus you need to think that roughly 95% of colts bred are not breeding quality so people can charge what they like for something that is breeding quality as they are hard to come by, and need alot of work, especially in the first few years which you are wanting to miss out on just so he is old enough to start making foals!!! And once a breeder has kept a colt until he is 2 or 3 and realised that animal is worth keeping entire then the price will go up, buying a weanling colt is the usual way of doing things if you don't want to fork out a fortune for a ready made stallion, it's a gamble and often it doesn't pay off, but with experince and knowing your stock the risks can be lessened and you can get a bargain that way!
 
SophieLouBee said:
People, seem to have inflated values of what their horses are worth (see my stud reduction thread *sob*). I'd have had the colt mentioned on there and taken him home yesterday, but the silly beggar just wouldn't negotiate on price at all, I know I drive a hard bargain, but only because I *hope* I know my shizzle, as does my business partner. We are just not prepared to pay over-the-odds in this market.
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I read your earlier thread and replied in a positive as I thought you had fallen in love with the colt as a view to being a riding horse. Once I read that you wanted to buy the colt for under £1,000 and that it was a cryptorchid which you were planning to use as a stallion I dipped out of that thread and felt rather foolish for encouraging you in the first place. I'm sorry but your "shizzle" is quite different from mine. A cryptorchid (in my book) is not stallion material and they should not be bred from.

The posters above have covered most other points and I agree with their comments. I'm another who has my colts castrated, my youngsters do not sell for peanuts nor would I let them go for peanuts. I think your budget for purchasing a colt with stallion potential is probably in a different league from many breeders on here; I pay more per dose for frozen stallion semen for just one of my mares than you are looking to pay for buying the whole stallion! Think on that if you're planning to breed quality youngsters ;)
 
Spring Feather said:
The posters above have covered most other points and I agree with their comments. I'm another who has my colts castrated, my youngsters do not sell for peanuts nor would I let them go for peanuts. I think your budget for purchasing a colt with stallion potential is probably in a different league from many breeders on here; I pay more per dose for frozen stallion semen for just one of my mares than you are looking to pay for buying the whole stallion! Think on that if you're planning to breed quality youngsters ;)
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^^^^
Quite!

I'm a very small time breeder and I still have my 2010 youngster, even though I had bred him to sell. Why? Because I refuse to sell a quality youngster for peanuts to bargain chasers just because of the market conditions. Bottom line is, I wouldn't breed if I couldn't afford to keep him until the right person comes along, recognises his quality and is happy to pay what he's worth... In the end, that is the only way I can ensure his future quality of life, because that is my responsibility as his breeder!
 
Some people hey :confused: :rolleyes: :eek:

I'd like to find a top quality 2 yr old for peanuts too, the only difference is I live in the real world!

Made me smile, anyway back off to the clouds with cuckoos! :D
 
I missed the other thread - but £1000 for a stallion potential FOAL would not be possible unless it is a pony stallion and even then you're pushing it, but for a grown horse with stallion potential - WTF!!! - is this a wind up by a child???!!!
Hopefully the OP will read this and take it all in - I hope they also realise that breeding from a cryptorchid horse will mean she gets loads of cryptorchid foals and mares that throw cryptorchid babies, which no-one will want and cost her a bomb to castrate, let alone law suits if she doesn't inform people her stallion has this problem and that his fertility would be very poor as a result!!! - this person should definitly not own horses, let alone breed them, if they are really serious and not taking the piss!!

A stallion quality horse FOAL for most breeds will set you back £5 grand upwards, but realistically, even in this market, about 7 grand is nearer the mark if you really want a top notch allrounder foal, a ready made stallion that stands out from the bucket loads of other stallions available out there then - blank cheque!!! I suspect though we are bashing our heads against a brick wall and the meat man will have yet another supplier!!! - sigh!!
 
And the market may well have dropped for the lower ends but the horses (and that includes colts) ARE holding their money in the top end.....because they are worth every penny of the price asked.
Why should the breeder not get a fair price for their horses, they have to earn a crust too!
 
joeanne said:
.....because they are worth every penny of the price asked.
.......
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I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you. Any horse is only worth what the buyer will pay. If a buyer can't be found, at the asked for price, then the horse isn't worth that much. It may well have cost double the asking price to get to a yearling stage, or what ever age it is, but with a depleted market, there will not be the buyers out there to enable the bulk of breeders to show any sort of return.

I wish that it was otherwise, and I really do feel for the experienced, knowledgable and committed breeders, but we're living in straitened times and it's the buyer who sets the market value.

I've always thought that those of us who breed a horse or two, and when we go through difficult days, have only to hang on, until life improves. This recession is deep rooted, it may well last for another five years, or longer, and those who breed anything but the very best really are going to have to wake up, and accept that life wont be improving, for some good while.

Harsh words? Possibly, but I just hope that in three years time (?) I don't have call to re-post, and say to others, "Told you so". There will be no pleasure in that.

Alec.
 
Is this is the same Sophie advertising on Preloved for a dressage/event colt and coloured or unusual broodmares or filly foals up to aged 8 - whatever unusual is?
 
I paid a £1200 stud fee for my colt. Plus vets bill, scans, keep costs, jabs, microchip etc, he's now two, I'd guess he stands me at around 5k minimum. why on earth would i part with him for 1k?:o Maybe if he had three legs and one eye........ lol
 
Alec Swan said:
I wish that it was otherwise, and I really do feel for the experienced, knowledgable and committed breeders, but we're living in straitened times and it's the buyer who sets the market value.
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Yes and no. I think many of the experienced, knowledgable and committed breeders were starting to take note of the change in the market some time ago. When the in-utero sales start to decline that's the first indication that funds are slimmer on the ground for many. Foals selling post-weaning rather than the more normal months/weeks pre-weaning is probably the second indication. So when you have nice foals; good quality but maybe not exceptional, and with nice but maybe more run of the mill type bloodlines, you may have to wait a little longer to find that buyer who will pay your price. However if you have exceptional foals with outstanding or relatively uncommon bloodlines then I think the pricing puts the ball very much in the court of the seller and there will always be buyers who will pay for this. Supply and demand as with any business really but with nuances popped in all the way along the line just to keep us breeders on our toes :)

Committed breeders will have paid attention to these subtle changes in the market early on and either acted accordingly by slimming down their breeding programmes or taken onboard the realistic view of hanging onto their youngstock till they are 3, 4 or 5 years old rather than selling as few month old foals or in-utero. A lot of breeders I personally know have indeed taken measures to safeguard their futures by implementing self-imposed restrictions on the amount of mares being bred, they've made preparations to keep foals till 4 year olds, some have been breeding to more unique/desirable stallions and a couple of them have decided to call a halt to it and retire from the breeding game while they're still quids-in. I have the wherewithall to do nothing but just sit and wait to see what happens. I'm content to hold on to my youngstock for a few years. What I won't do is sell my youngsters for peanuts so perhaps for some the buyer will indeed dictate their futures, for others who have the same flexibility as I have then these breeders can still set prices and wait it out. Many of us have lived through these type of world-economic-hardship times before so are aware that recovery WILL come in the end and those who could ride the storm may well be in an enviable position.
 
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Alec Swan said:
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with you. Any horse is only worth what the buyer will pay. If a buyer can't be found, at the asked for price, then the horse isn't worth that much. It may well have cost double the asking price to get to a yearling stage, or what ever age it is, but with a depleted market, there will not be the buyers out there to enable the bulk of breeders to show any sort of return.

I wish that it was otherwise, and I really do feel for the experienced, knowledgable and committed breeders, but we're living in straitened times and it's the buyer who sets the market value.

I've always thought that those of us who breed a horse or two, and when we go through difficult days, have only to hang on, until life improves. This recession is deep rooted, it may well last for another five years, or longer, and those who breed anything but the very best really are going to have to wake up, and accept that life wont be improving, for some good while.

Harsh words? Possibly, but I just hope that in three years time (?) I don't have call to re-post, and say to others, "Told you so". There will be no pleasure in that.

Alec.
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Just because a buyer wont pay 'x' amount doesnt necessarily mean the horse isn't worth the asking price. I do agree that long running studs known for quality stock will do better than smaller ones, and most hobby breeders but a good horse is worth a good price. Good horses are available cheap when they've been over produced. the market is flooded with middle range horses, and people expect to pay similar prices from top quality which is a joke imho.

2yo x is by a stallion who is graded but hasnt done much competitively even though it's 12yo and the record it does have from 4/5yo isn't sparkling, nor has it produced anything of note. Dam is intermediate level decent sireline but weak damline with 3rd gen on missing. Nice looking youngster but no wow factor. 2yo y is by a graded young stallion say 7yo who has gained excellent results in young horse classes and has produced foals which have done well at the futurity and are out of proven top level graded mares, very correct foal and has presence. 2yo z is by and international stallion, with excellent grading marks and proven international level progeny, mare is very well bred on both sides but has no comp record and not graded but has been a broodmare all her life, was a bit of an ugly duckling but is turning into a very fine young horse. All three of these 2yo's (all colts) are in a similar price bracket - which sells? colt x. Confused? - me too. Though imo colt y and z should have been advertised higher but as says on ad's 'price reflects current market NOT the quality'. Though because these are nicer colts and advertised cheaply - do people assume there is a problem with them. For those that are curious, all three colts were advertised at between £2500 -£3500

though i accept in my example it's the middle quality one that sold - surely the other two should have sold as nicer for the money - or do people not want bargains or assume they'll be over horsed?
 
Hi guys, sorry to be late to reply, again!

Just to clarify, my business partner has mares, decent mares, and I am financially inputting with them for a stallion to have at home, eventually. I'm not a fan of breeding any old crap, I know there is enough of that about, the stallion just doesn't need to be prestige as we have good mares. Equally I don't want one that is unknown, out of unknown, as has been said, market is flooded with them.


The colt on the other thread, had one retained testicle, so he isn't stallion potential, at all.
However, his full brother had the same that dropped at three.
So, if his bits dropped at three, yes he probably would be used, but if not, he'd be gelded, and have an expensive op to remove it. Hence why I was shocked at the price, things like that go through the sales for pennies.

I am new to this, my partner has bred racehorses for many years, so don't all jump on the wagon, we all need to learn & I have experienced people to learn from

Hope that has cleared all things up.
 
SophieLouBee said:
The colt on the other thread, had one retained testicle, so he isn't stallion potential, at all.
However, his full brother had the same that dropped at three.
So, if his bits dropped at three, yes he probably would be used,
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Ouch! Even if his testicle DID drop at 3, he shouldn't be used! Particularly as
his full brother had the same that dropped at three

How much more proof do you need that the condition is hereditary!!! And colts that can't be gelded until they are 3 are a costly disaster!!

Hence why I was shocked at the price, things like that go through the sales for pennies.
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On the one hand you say that - and with another breath you say if his testicle dropped you'd breed from him!! :rolleyes: IF he was good enough to be a stallion (testicle notwithstanding) then he'd be worth at least £3,000 as a gelding. Gelding him would be unlikely to cost £1500!

the stallion just doesn't need to be prestige as we have good mares.
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Sorry - but good mares aren't enough - particularly if you plan to use an 'unknown' stallion on them! And the same stallion at that! Unless your mares are carbon copies, one stallion won't suit all!

we all need to learn & I have experienced people to learn from
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Well get learning!! To start breeding with a colt you picked up cheap and put all these 'good mares' to is a recipe for failure! Assess your mares' strengths and weakesses. Pick good stallions for them and see what they throw. Then when you have your colt, test mate him to a couple of your mares and see how his foals compare to the foals by other stallions selected for that mare.

That's what I've done with my 'hopeful' this year - used him on 6 mares, all of whom have had foals by at least one other stallion. If his foals aren't at least as good as the mares' previous foals, he'll be cut! Using him on 6 of my 18 mares is a big eough gamble - putting all your eggs in one basket is just plain crazy!
 
Who is breeding these and why. Fair enough if its someone who has fallen on hard times and the colt is well bred. But we had a waiting list for all our yearlings as they were quality bred and the stallion was registered and graded as were the mares. Have never understood the chance breeders. Youngsters with fantastic breeding are already going for reasonable prices and if have to breed from your own horses then you have a fantastic stallion market to choose from at the moment.
 
Of course the pedigree of the stallion matters. I know a guy who has had to sell everything he owns because he started a stud with the same idea as you. He has a field of horses that are going through the sales for 3 to 500 pounds. You have already stated that horses are going through the sales for pennies. Why breed more. Your business plan is a recipe for disaster. I can give you example after example. Please do your research before buying and covering anything
 
thanks jg, the colt had been bought in from another yard. I've never heard of him but he's up Staffordshire way.
The mares have, been with some nice stallions of various sorts, and the youngstock sold well, that's about as much as I could tell you.

This isn't a light hearted decision, so I'm not going to throw my money into any old thing, I really do appreciate the advise on here, and I am pretty naive. But I do have a clue on the current state of the Market, and I wouldn't want to be involved in flooding it with even more horses that no one wants, sorry if it came across that way!
this really is a learnining curve for me, and no way would I proceed with anything, unless I got advice from people who are experienced, luckily they are close to hand ( in rl and the advice on here).

So, the colts brother, is now a breeding stallion I think. the sellers of the colt really made light of the testicle thing, hence my obviously naive opinion on breeding him, as I was going on what a breeder was telling me (obvious now to make a sale).
 
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