Colt/Stallion Owners - Advice Please?

We've currently got 3 colts. A rising 3 yr old smart welsh x appy spotty pony cob, nice conformation, lovely movement for his type and a really good temperament. A rising 2 yr old "should have been a sports pony but is gonna go way over height" out of a papered JA mare by a papered warmblood stallion who is CHAPS graded. A rising 2 yr old coloured colt out of an intermediate eventer TB mare out of the above stallion. I am in a position where I could run any or all of them on as stallions, but why the hell would I??

The first one is a gem and would undoubtedly get mares so long as I priced him right, and may well throw nice foals, but seriously, hes a pony cob of unknown parentage. The second one has reasonable conformation but not perfect. He moves beautifully, has a good temperament and has a hell of a jump, but again, no way! The 3rd one was almost retained by his breeder to be a stallion, but again, while hes nice quality and is bred to make an out an out eventer he is not good enough to earn the right to reproduce!

The only reason they are still colts is because the weather caught us on the hop. They all have a lovely life, but they will damn certainly have a better life as geldings!

Why not buy the colt and geld him? I know what its like to find one of your horses relations and want to buy them. I bought the JA mare who is the mother of one of the colts. I will probably at some point breed from her again as shes papered and has earned the right to reproduce by having nice conformation and movement etc and having become a JA in a very short space of time as well as having bred 2 nice foals already.

If you want to stand a stallion spend a fair few years working on a reputable stud first, research the youngster that your buying and the market he'll suit, then get somewhere suitable to keep him, a lottery win wont go amiss either :D
 
it takes mystic meg to see the outcome, and who was it who said about the beatles, 'they have the wrong look and rock and roll is going out,' the rest is history.
if i had listened to others about my stallion he would'nt be one now, but then i always thought he was a beautiful swan, even at 18 mths and thin and hairy, but then i see what i see and others see what they see.
if we are talking about indiscriminate breeding lets look at the racehorse situation or the trotters or how about some of the continental stallions that are covering upwards of 500 mares a season, i find it hard to believe that they are as carefully and purposefully bred, as no stallion can be compatible with 500 mares, as someone who sets about breeding correctly as op is considering and putting in 100 per cent concentration on a few horses she has full right to explore the possibility, and that is what she is doing.
 
And some people wonder why we are in such a mess!! Take it you have not visited many sales. I also take it that you have not seen the photos of said sire. After your comments I bloody well hope not, otherwise I question your judgement on what you think makes a good stallion. And I said I would not post on this thread again, but lord god help this industry. We are talking about & I repeat, a type of horse that is bred in its 1000's, there is no need for a 17yo to add to it with yet another bog standard pony. If she wants to breed then get a decent colt with the potential to add decent genes. Jesus after reading some of the comments I wonder why some people in Austrialia think we in the UK are further advanced in our breeding programmes.

A stallion may well cover 500 mares, not all of them suitable, but at least they have an outlet, the dinner plate!!
 
tristar said:
it takes mystic meg to see the outcome, and who was it who said about the beatles, 'they have the wrong look and rock and roll is going out,' the rest is history.
if i had listened to others about my stallion he would'nt be one now, but then i always thought he was a beautiful swan, even at 18 mths and thin and hairy, but then i see what i see and others see what they see.
if we are talking about indiscriminate breeding lets look at the racehorse situation or the trotters or how about some of the continental stallions that are covering upwards of 500 mares a season, i find it hard to believe that they are as carefully and purposefully bred, as no stallion can be compatible with 500 mares, as someone who sets about breeding correctly as op is considering and putting in 100 per cent concentration on a few horses she has full right to explore the possibility, and that is what she is doing.
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No it does not take "mystic meg" to see the outcome, it takes someone with an EXPERIENCED eye and knowledge of the industry (and an ounce of sense), and it takes a lot of money and effort.

Just because the warmblood and TB stallions are, in your opinion, over done, does that then make it right to have thousands of below quality stallions dotted around the countryside indiscriminately breeding while rescue centers and sales are overflowing with unwanted and mistreated animals?

This is the problem with our society nowadays, especially the younger generation, they want it so they have it and ******* the consequences.

FFS !!!
 
i spent 45 years looking and buying horses all over, including sales, most weeks looking at over 500 horses, i did in fact buy one colt at a sale who was later reserve champion at the royal international, and another i bought for 200 quid who was insulted left right and centre, and who grew into a beautiful horse who later won a dressage championship, where i live now i am lucky enough to visit the top sales for youngsters, which is my particular interest, a couple of years ago i bought a very scruffy colt ran him on, he is now at stud in belgium where standards are very high, so question my judgement all you like you are very welcome.
its only a forum, op is only EXPLORING the possibility
if i"m honest i quite liked the picture of the now gelding who is sire of the colt in question.
i have a very young friend who breeds arab horses, i thought she's a bit young etc, however she is very successful and only 25 now, starting at 18 years, she has recently sold a black colt to sheike mohammed's daughter who breeds arabs in dubai, he is to be her stud stallion out there, so maybe its not quite fair to use age as a reason .

there is a in my opinion a market for specifically middleweight not too big riding horses of good trainable attitude and work morale.
the rescue centres are full because people don't take responsibility for their animals.
 
In which case you would have developed over the years an eye for seeing a decent horse regardless of its condition. I presume your horses are above "bog standard" every day riding horses and you see in them something that others might not because of the experience you have gained from watching hundreds of horses of differing qualities.

I think what has got peoples goat on this thread is that the OP seems to have ignored out of hand the good advice she has been given and seems to have the attitude of "i will do what i like anyway regardless of the circumstances i am in".


Well done to your Arab breeding friend :)
 
Hi tristar, I did say in an earlier post that age did not necessary bring knowledge, but I stand by what I have said. The now gelding is a nice riding type, but a stallion, no I dont think so. As for his son, again there are 100's of them already, & 1000's already being bred. Your young friend has sucess with Arabs, not a bog standard pony of unknown breeding. We are only going to go round & round in circles with this. Everyone can quote about the ugly duckling to swan scenario, but they are still very small. We have a coloured stallion up the road who has had some succesful offspring across the board, but he has also has some throwbacks, not helped Im sure by his dam having no recorded breeding. When you use any horse mare or stallion with unknown breeding you take a big gamble. The difference is the stallion can do more damage as he has the ability to have far more offspring.
 
magic104 said:
And some people wonder why we are in such a mess!! Take it you have not visited many sales. I also take it that you have not seen the photos of said sire. After your comments I bloody well hope not, otherwise I question your judgement on what you think makes a good stallion. And I said I would not post on this thread again, but lord god help this industry. We are talking about & I repeat, a type of horse that is bred in its 1000's, there is no need for a 17yo to add to it with yet another bog standard pony. If she wants to breed then get a decent colt with the potential to add decent genes. Jesus after reading some of the comments I wonder why some people in Austrialia think we in the UK are further advanced in our breeding programmes.

A stallion may well cover 500 mares, not all of them suitable, but at least they have an outlet, the dinner plate!!
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I'm rather wondering if this may end up as one of the sanest posts of 2011, and we've barely started!! Well said.

Alec.
 
I bred a very nice dun colt almost 5 years ago - my first homebred (and last for a while!). He was out of a Premier broodmare (very TB influenced ISH with breeding recorded) by a superb (IMO) Irish Sport Horse stallion - Boherdeal Clover. I received the mare in part payment for work done. She was in foal with the colt at the time and had a filly foal by the same sire at foot. His older full sister (then about 8/9yo) was a Grade A pony at the time of his birth. The colt was left with the herd (mare not covered again) and unhandled until approx 18mths when he was brought in and despite decent conformation, temperament and a good deal of athleticism he was castrated immediately. The owners of his full sister DNA typed her and traced her breeding na d when they discoverd she had a younger full brother offerd to buy him. He is now living a great life with children who adore him and has started competing in affiliated competition.
This foal was a very good mover (dam had a good jump but average movement) and has proved to be a very good jumper but I had (and still have) no desire to have a stallion and could see no good reason to keep entire at the time. There were better small stallions out there and tbh, Connemaras were and still are much more opoular pony sires than undergrown sport horses.

I did also previously buy a 2yo coloured colt by Touchdown. There certainly werent many (or possibly ANY) coloured entire sons of Touchdown on the ground when I bought this colt and this sire was quite popular at the time. It was a year after Lisalgot won the World Championships. I was the smae age as the OP and despite having more experience than her I was under no illusion that I would be capable of handling, breaking or riding this colt(he was only about 15.2hh when I bought him). I had him gelded about 3wks after purchse - while he was still at the previous owners home. Came home and turned away then backed him in Spring. In the meantime he had grown to apporx 16.1hh and was quite a handful (despite a fairly good temperament and being gelded). Just after being backed he was spotted and bought (for a rather large sum of money) by an Australian event rider. He had a good start in competition but has spent the last 18mths off work injured. Hopefully he will return to competition this year. Perhaps if he had come along years later i may have considered keeping him entire but I do think I mae the right decision to geld him.
Kao does not, in my eyes, have very good conformation and does not appear from the recent photos to have better schooling that most of the horses owned by people who have commented. I do think the OP requires a reality check.
 
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Ok this thread is going round in circles, but the young person needs to understand that as Angrove stud has said, so much has been done to improve the breeding of coloured horses and ponies.
Just a small look at the sire reveals conformation faults i.e very strait hocks, also where would he be graded I may be wrong and correct me is I am, but dont CHAPS, BSPA & sports pony Society require varified breeding.
The Sire looks very sweet, but really if the colt takes after him, NOT STALLION POTENTIAL.
 
well this thread got people talking!! I have a 2 yr old (in may) welsh d who is currently entire and as long as he stays as well behaved as he is now, he will stay entire, as he is for showing so the more crest and presence he has the better plus I have no plans on selling him either but if I have any problems with him then he will be gelded, anyway the only problem I have is finding livery for him, i have a new forest gelding that is his companion and I currently rent a private yard with 2 stables and a paddock but i have moved house and am now struggling to find anywhere to keep them because I cant afford to keep both at a main livery plus most dont take colts anyway, but I cant sell his companion as he will have nothing to turn out with. so just make sure you have somewhere to keep him as he gets older.
all this grading stuf etc I know nothing about but if your planning on keeping him then I belive its entirely up to you whether you geld him or not :) good luck
 
OP, you say Kao is your inspiration to keep the colt entire due his temperment and nature. That is not enough to go on to try and grade a stallion. There are far too many coloured cobs bred for this already, it would be sesible to NOT add to that pool.

No one is dissing Kao, he looks like a smart cob who will go on to be a great little horse. BUT he is not stallion material, therefore i doubt the colt is either. What is Kao's natural jump like? Is he super talented? Does he move nicely with no effort?
These things are spotted in colts, BEFORE the riding and training at young ages. And it's the qualities that come naturaly that justify putting the colts through the gradings and the hardship of being a stallion. To produce quality horses, not more allrounders, we have penty of those as it is.
 
Dowjones said:
No one is dissing Kao, he looks like a smart cob who will go on to be a great little horse. BUT he is not stallion material, therefore i doubt the colt is either. What is Kao's natural jump like? Is he super talented? Does he move nicely with no effort?
These things are spotted in colts, BEFORE the riding and training at young ages. And it's the qualities that come naturaly that justify putting the colts through the gradings and the hardship of being a stallion. To produce quality horses, not more allrounders, we have penty of those as it is.
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I do agree. I also didn't reaslise that Kao was only 17. You have a long life ahead of you with horses.

I agree with everyone else, there is so many average horses in this world, who breed from something average?

Leave the breeding of Vanners to people that know what they're doing, much safer and less hearbreak for all involved
 
hireateenager.jpg
 
I get to see so many horses at sales and through the dealer I mind horses for and through the rescue and rehoming I do for different charities.;)
9 out 10 are coloured cobs,the other 1 is tb!:eek:
Honestly Kao may be a lovely natured horse but gelding him didnt do him any harm? His colt foal might be better off having the same treatment?;)

really when people say " i am against indicrimminate breeding" then say but I keep my half bred/cob/arab/shetland/welsh/purple pink spotted pony entire because he has super manners it really ticks me off!!!
Unless your horse has been the offspring of graded proven horses then breeding should be left alone? who wants to own a horse that is 20 generations away from a pedigree animal and is ugly to anyone but the owners rose tinted view? and is quite likely never to be good enough for grading(whatever grading you might follow!)
Irish cob society grades stallions-guess what,mostly black and white cobs with feather,and trot well for harness work.There isnt a shortage in the ranks trust me!!:D:rolleyes:
 
Moragulous Mulled Wine said:
I get to see so many horses at sales and through the dealer I mind horses for and through the rescue and rehoming I do for different charities.;)
9 out 10 are coloured cobs,the other 1 is tb!:eek:
Honestly Kao may be a lovely natured horse but gelding him didnt do him any harm? His colt foal might be better off having the same treatment?;)

really when people say " i am against indicrimminate breeding" then say but I keep my half bred/cob/arab/shetland/welsh/purple pink spotted pony entire because he has super manners it really ticks me off!!!
Unless your horse has been the offspring of graded proven horses then breeding should be left alone? who wants to own a horse that is 20 generations away from a pedigree animal and is ugly to anyone but the owners rose tinted view? and is quite likely never to be good enough for grading(whatever grading you might follow!)
Irish cob society grades stallions-guess what,mostly black and white cobs with feather,and trot well for harness work.There isnt a shortage in the ranks trust me!!:D:rolleyes:
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Well said
 
keeping a colt on a livery yard is 99.999999999% going to be a nightmare, if there are ANY accidents or possiable accidents your colt will be blamed. Also mature stallions brought up correctly are totaly different to handle from a 1-4yrs colt and if you do not have experience in that area or your own facilities it will be a bad idea. If he starts displaying behavioural problems geling him may be o litle to late..

he will almost certianly end up having to live alone, and if he is good enough to remain entire i suppose you would want to stand him at public stud, how will you cope with visiting mares or the cost of sending him away to livery at a stud farm? If you oly want to us him on a few , or your own mares then why not grade him then collect and freeze semen and geld him.
 
I am very impressed by your account of how you are training your youngster, you are quite right in saying you have all the time in the world and that he will continue to improve all his life, and most of all you not trying to impress anyone by forcing him into an outline, (it will come when he can work all through his body and all his joints are suppled by the school movements) which is the ruination of many horses, he is still changing his teeth, and his spine is not fully developed until he is five, follow your instincts, devote 100 per cent to your horse and you will be rewarded.
at your age the special vision of your life and dreams is very clear and unsullied, do not let your own special talents and self confidence be undermined
i feel your ideas are very close to my own and have confidence that you will make the right decisions, it is never an easy road to be different.
 
Kao,please think long and hard about what you are letting yourself in for.Personally i think you should geld him.Unless you have your own place(facilities) and the room to take visiting mares should you chosse to use your colt at public stud.You will also need a bottomless pit of money and be prepared to part with a lot of ££££'s,,if you kept the colt on a livery yard and say you had to leave for some reason what would you do then.I know a lot of the livery yards around here wont accept colts/stallions so its quite limited.plus as others have said if he dosent have a pedigree etc you have to think to yourself would he appeal to mare owners,possibly getting someone to look at your colt first would be a good idea.think sensible and practical!!
 
I agree with most of the other threads here - I'd geld him, looking at the quality of the sire and if he is anything like it, then he is not stallion quality at all, yes he's a lovely average pony and a nice gelding, of which there are tons like him, but not good enough to be producing more of himself.
You've said so yourself that he is not so well bred and is only £400 which to be brutally honest says it all, it sounds more like a rescue which should not be producing more of itself which could end up the same.
A colt with stallion potential is a very expensive thing and only goes up in value as it gets older, for most breeds a potential stallion quality colt will set you back £4000+, even the gypsy horses out of top sires and dams - they are the only ones you will get potentially valuable offspring from and people will want to use. Yes there are the occasional fluke colts that slip the breeders net and do turn into swans but they are few and far between and usually of known breeding or a particular breed. With an unknown breeding such as this who knows what you would get - I don't know many mare owners with good quality animals who would want to risk spending all that money to use a stallion of unknown origin just to get a random that they could pick up for a quarter of the price at any horse sale - I think you would most likely get the wrong sort of people using a horse like this - the type that sell on dragon driving for example!!

Having owned stallions myself for years - I have 2 at the moment - they are a huge responsibility and very costly to keep, insure, health tests at the beginning of every breeding season including tadpole counts, stable - I had extra strong 14 x 14 stables built with heavy duty doors on and double gates hung at 6ft every where to make sure stallions don't accidentally meet with horses they don't get on with or mares in season - mine are out with company 24/7 and in at night in the winter - but they can get very protective of their herd! Fencing - I have spent a fortune on 6ft fencing and you need 20ft between paddocks so they can't be tempted - even then you have to be careful as they will climb!! I would certainly never entertain keeping a breeding entire on a public yard - the potential costs involved IF you find somewhere to take him are huge, especially if something goes wrong and you end up in court for damages etc. I don't even think you can get insurance for a breeding horse if you are under 18?
You can never be ill!, never go on holiday without leaving vast quantities of instructions behind along with the very experienced handler you leave in charge that you trust totally - they are a HUGE commitment, what happens when you go to college/uni? I know you may think you know what you want now but a horse can live 20 or 30 yrs - do you know what you will want in the future? - will this random stallion be sale-able if you decide to change your mind?

Also how would you have visiting mares on a public yard and be able to offer effective disease control for your stock let alone the peoples horses already on the yard? - it would be a logistical nightmare!
It is very costly even having a stallion to use on your own mares - I bred to sell on as a hobby and to keep a few for myself, I have stopped now as the costs have just become ridiculous and I've started up an art business!, so now I only stand my boys via AI, but I have only ever JUST if I'm very lucky covered all my costs if all has gone well and no major disasters - but I certainly don't get any money for my time, and I have my own land and facilities.
And it is a nightmare finding the right homes for horses - you need to be able to have the space, grazing etc to keep whatever you don't sell for whatever reason - some are accident magnets and you may end up keeping them for years if not for life - can you afford to keep a huge amount of horses on a livery yard - or rather as you are only 17 - can your parents afford it?! Plus you have to think of money for passports/vaccinations/microchips/gelding colts/advertising/feed/farrier/scans/swabs/bloodtests etc - it soon adds up!!

If I were you I would get some work experience on a stud farm, that will get you knowledgeable on horse behavior - it is not just as simple as sticking 2 horses in a field together and letting them do it naturally - 95% of domestic mares have never seen a stallion so have no clue how to react - they can react very violently even when in full season!! You have to be pretty clued up on how a mare reacts to teasing if she is either going to stand for him or kick the crap out of you and your stallion - breeding horses is by far the most dangerous thing you can do with a horse and you always need several people on hand to help you and who know what they are doing - they need to be insured too just incase!!!
You need to save up a huge amount of money and buy your own spot, I'd either start with a really good proven broodmare and breed exactly the sort of colt you want from a really well known sire, or invest alot in a stallion potential colt and keep your fingers crossed it turns out as you hoped!!
You then just have to save up to promote it and prove it, if you wait you'll also have gained plenty of knowledge of the market you are aiming at, will be old enough that potential clients will take you seriously, have learnt what mare owners want and what horses compliment each other and at what makes a stallion quality horse.

I have bred a lot of colts and only kept 2 to run on as entires, all the rest we have gelded as I didn't want any going to a miserable solitary life, which is what happens to most stallions. One of mine I gelded as a 4yr old as he was running fences, which annoys me!, and becoming too big for his boots - and he hadn't even covered a mare, so despite having the conformation/breeding etc he just wasn't the 110% temperament wise I expect from a stallion so it was nuts off!!!:D The other one we're thinking of sending away to be professionally backed now he is old enough at 5, but his manners are impeccable - so you can never buy a colt and know 100% that it is even going to make the basic grades!!
The old saying of 'if you want to make a million with horses.....start with 5 million!!' - is VERY true!!!:D
 
tristar said:
I am very impressed by your account of how you are training your youngster, you are quite right in saying you have all the time in the world and that he will continue to improve all his life, and most of all you not trying to impress anyone by forcing him into an outline, (it will come when he can work all through his body and all his joints are suppled by the school movements) which is the ruination of many horses, he is still changing his teeth, and his spine is not fully developed until he is five, follow your instincts, devote 100 per cent to your horse and you will be rewarded.
at your age the special vision of your life and dreams is very clear and unsullied, do not let your own special talents and self confidence be undermined
i feel your ideas are very close to my own and have confidence that you will make the right decisions, it is never an easy road to be different.
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No it is not an easy road to be different, but where is the common sense in all this? Do you think the people giving advice here have nothing better to do then destroy someones dreams? In this instance a reality check is a must, otherwise it will be horses that are destroyed!
 
Alexart very eloquently sums up the collective advice given to Kao to base her decision on common sense and market forces. Kao is to be commended for her determination in hoping to prove the potential she sees in her gelding, Kao. I am sure that she would get more pleasure in doing the same for his gelded son than in keeping him entire. The evidence is there for those that care to visit the site mentioned by Alexart that there are many more entires out there that shouldn't be. The consequences are there for all to see. What price a life?
 
in this post, was referring to the comments made by people on her yard, like the gelding will never make a showjumper, he'll never get further than novice or elementary etc, please don't take what i say out of context.
i believe she' s starting the training well, as i don't think that dressage is about the wow factor, its about collection developed slowly over a long period, she would do well to study the iberian riders, the posture and seat, and the way the horses use themselves because of their correct training, and with showjumping to achieve the desired result correct balance to enable the horse to meet each obstacle on the right stride with confidence and impulsion is only reached by good training.
the remarks were not directed to anyone on this forum, but the op who has been subjected to these unkind comments while riding her horse.
only mystic meg or god knows how he will turn out
 
I would hazard a guess that OP has seen a pony for sale by her own beloved pony for a small amount of £££'s but cannot afford the additional ££££'s to get him gelded on top and so has come up with this great idea that she can run him on and save herself a few quid in the short term.
If she can't ever afford to rent her own place, I do wonder how she will ever be able to afford to pay to get him graded, I wonder if she thinks he will grade for £20 and a packet of salt and vinegar?!!!

Kao, i have 2 colts, one is just lucky we bought him after the weather had changed for the winter come spring he will lose his nuts- he is a gypsy cob type and he is highly likely homozygous and a decent enough boy- but a breeding prospect?? not likely. He has no breeding and cost less then meat money.

The other is being run on, but he has pedigree, looks, a unique colour and a perfect temperment, his sire is graded, his grand sire is elite graded. However, i am aware it will from next year cost me ALOT of money to send him away to be produced for potential grading and in livery to stand him somewhere (stallion livery is £100 plus a WEEK). He will not get anywhere near enough mares to cover these costs, do you really think yours would?!

My 2 are on a small livery yard BUT it is a very small yard with only 4 other horses none of which are mares, there are no yards around us either. I think i am very lucky and next year I will be very poor :) I hope your parents have a big bank balance if your hell bent on wasting some money.
 
As I first read this post the other day and saw there was no bloodlines or competition background to this horse I knew I would personally geld him and stuck with that idea all the way through this thread.

However I would do the same only if the horse showed talent or had the bloodlines but as a lot of people have said there's already so many stallions out there and unwanted foals. Its also a much more uncomplicated life to be gelded.

I am 17 myself, I bred my first foal at 16 and got a filly, I said if I got a colt it would be gelded as the bloodlines would not have been great enough to breed from. But I did breed for my own personal use and out of a good stallion(arab) that is a national champ etc. The filly has turned out to be nice but if she was a colt not nice enough. You've gotta look at it with open eyes and stop dreaming!
 
I bred a colt foal 4 years ago, (Appaloosa) and decided to keep him entire along with another colt foal we also bred that year.. this was my first dealings with a colt, as all my horses have been mares, but we bought them up firm but fair and they were socailized with the other horses regually (the mares)

last year we had one of the colts gelded (Moonshine) as my daughter wanted to bring him over to the UK and we knew how hard it was to keep a stallion in the UK, but ive kept the other stallion 'Harley' entire, and he is a dream, I can hack him out with my mares, he lives out 24/7 with his paddock next to the mares, with a few feet between them, and until this summer he shared a paddock with Moonshine, but I had to seperate them as Moony was the boss and would pinch Harleys feed...lol..

OK, hes had his moments, escaping sometimes, but Ive got my own land in the middle of know where..so its not a big problem and hes easy to catch..and this year after covering a mare he thought every time he saw a mare it was for covering, but that was soon and easily sorted.

BUT if he had of been a problem then the nuts would of been straight off!! the reason im keeping him entire, as I would like to breed from him here in Spain, hes got good breeding, good conformation, an excellent nature and Appaloosas are very rare here in Spain..
plus having a stallion over here is no big deal... its more rare to see a gelding..

and he is a real sweetie.. BUT I never forget the fact that he is entire...
 
Kinda glad this fell through now actually.
Sellers messed me about so I'm sticking to my comfort zone. Just the patchy pony for me now :) Hopefully the colt wont end up in the wrong hands :/
 
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