Coming through behind - flying changes

[CanteringCarrot]

Ok.

*takes a deep breath*

I am currently riding a horse that is late behind in his flying changes. He often kicks out in the change from right to left. Sometimes when he kicks out he changes (during the kick out/buck) from back to front...but the technique is not ideal.

He will often block attempt to leap in the air to change as if he is going over a pole, and yep, he "learned" over a pole previously.

So we've been working on the usual of walk canter, canter walk, counter canter, transitions within the canter, half pass, leg yield and so on. He really feels good and does these exercises well. Uses himself nicely. But it doesn't translate to the change. Then when he is set up perfectly for the change, wonderful canter, aids on time, has no option other than a proper change, he won't change. Or will try to jump up and change (late behind).

It's almost as if he can't do it the correct way. He doesn't know how or it is too hard. I've gotten a correct one once and rewarded profusely and finished for the day.

So I began riding this horse with 2 trainers and he has been showing improvement in all canter exercises minus the change and I'm about to pull my hair out. When trainer gets on him, he's actually a bit worse. ?‍ She is a far better rider too, but he is...a mental ride.

So then, short of shipping him off (not an option for him at the moment), giving up, or going insane, what other exercises can I do? What am I possibly missing? What should I pay more attention to?

I know you all aren't on the horse and aren't there watching, but appreciate input nonetheless.

Or is it just time and persistence?

I've been spoiled in the past with installing changes, apparently.

 

[McGrools]

Hi, have you seen the Pammy Hutton video on horse & country tv where she teaches the horse to change behind first? I’m not a dressagey person but she is a fantastic teacher and i’m sure there’s plenty to take from that video xx

 

[palo1]

I hope someone can give you some good advice on this - I am certainly interested and it has been years since I wanted to try this! I may need this info again though I do remember working with a horse that found changes very difficult (and had been initially taught over a pole) - we went back to basics in that we would work the changes from a trot (I know walk-canter canter-walk is more usual) but we would canter right, trot 3 strides, canter left (with clear aids for canter both ways). Once this was super, we reduced the trot to 2 strides, then 1, obviously doing the same on both reins and eventually the horse seemed to connect that the change in canter aids meant 'change now!!' in a way he hadn't got before. It is a long time ago though and that horse wasn't working toward competing.

 

[TheMule]

I saw an interesting tip on the Begijnhoeve YouTube channel earlier with horse that was changing late behind. They went from walk into counter canter and then changed back into true canter 2 strides later- said it really helped keep the horse's hocks under and made the change true

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Hi, have you seen the Pammy Hutton video on horse & country tv where she teaches the horse to change behind first? I’m not a dressagey person but she is a fantastic teacher and i’m sure there’s plenty to take from that video xx

Ooh, I'll check it out.

I've been doing a side pass exercise that has worked in the past, just not with this particular horse. Well, works to his "good" direction decently.

I hope someone can give you some good advice on this - I am certainly interested and it has been years since I wanted to try this! I may need this info again though I do remember working with a horse that found changes very difficult (and had been initially taught over a pole) - we went back to basics in that we would work the changes from a trot (I know walk-canter canter-walk is more usual) but we would canter right, trot 3 strides, canter left (with clear aids for canter both ways). Once this was super, we reduced the trot to 2 strides, then 1, obviously doing the same on both reins and eventually the horse seemed to connect that the change in canter aids meant 'change now!!' in a way he hadn't got before. It is a long time ago though and that horse wasn't working toward competing.

This has somewhat worked. I am still going to do this. It has helped quiet down his changes so I don't feel like I'm being launched into outer space anymore. Sort of takes the stress out and makes it just another transition.

He knows the signals very well. Can easily switch back and forth from true canter to counter canter through simple changes. He will also do a flying change to counter canter. So he "knows" but still has a few mechanics to work out.

I saw an interesting tip on the Begijnhoeve YouTube channel earlier with horse that was changing late behind. They went from walk into counter canter and then changed back into true canter 2 strides later- said it really helped keep the horse's hocks under and made the change true

I will look on the channel. I've done this before and he still launches (like there would be a pole) and changes late. Or kicks out and changes back to front. It's like he can sit, collect, pirouette, but has a disconnect with the changes.

I, personally, will never teach a horse over a pole...this horse is an example of why. Maybe it works for some people, but now that he learned previously his change was good, and that this is the way to do it, he's a bit stuck. He never forgets anything...and doing something different can blow his mind a little bit, but he also learns fast and is smart...odd combination sometimes! Takes a lot of brain power.


Also did...4 strides true canter, simple change, 4 strides counter canter, simple change, 3 strides true canter and then down to one ...which would be the flying change. Perhaps should do this more.

 

[shortstuff99]

What happens if you ride him on a circle in counter canter then ask for the change, is he still late?

 

[milliepops]

I never understand why people recommend changing over a pole for exactly this reason ?

My persistent late-behinder was quite similar, she had all the precursor exercises nailed but got her knickers in a huge twist over the actual change. I did eventually crack it, a few things that helped were
1. Improve my timing, I needed to be a microsecond quicker than her
2. Riding tempis took the stress out of doing a single change and so doing 4s or something helped her see it wasn't dramatic and gave me something to aim at that wasn't just A Change so I rode better too
3. Playing with positioning, pretty sure it was something like renvers counter canter into a change that helped flick the hindlegs through
4. generally getting the canter *quicker* not just more supple and balanced, her hindlegs were engaged but a little slow and needed to punch off the ground faster for her to believe she could change

Its painful. The next horse found it naturally so easy it really was a pleasure to teach her ?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

What happens if you ride him on a circle in counter canter then ask for the change, is he still late?

Hasn't really yielded any noteworthy results. That's how I started.

I never understand why people recommend changing over a pole for exactly this reason ?

My persistent late-behinder was quite similar, she had all the precursor exercises nailed but got her knickers in a huge twist over the actual change. I did eventually crack it, a few things that helped were
1. Improve my timing, I needed to be a microsecond quicker than her
2. Riding tempis took the stress out of doing a single change and so doing 4s or something helped her see it wasn't dramatic and gave me something to aim at that wasn't just A Change so I rode better too
3. Playing with positioning, pretty sure it was something like renvers counter canter into a change that helped flick the hindlegs through
4. generally getting the canter *quicker* not just more supple and balanced, her hindlegs were engaged but a little slow and needed to punch off the ground faster for her to believe she could change

Its painful. The next horse found it naturally so easy it really was a pleasure to teach her ?

Number 2 is the next thing I am about to try. Friend had a horse that would flip his lid when he had to change on course (jumper), so a trainer recommended tempi changes so he would get over it...and he did. He now produces through, active yet calm changed. So I've had this in my mind.

I've been really focusing on my timing as well as the horses hindlegs being quicker. He is actually quite active and quick, but I still work on it, and will continue to do so.

I've been moving his body all around in the canter, but have totally neglected renvers *facepalm* this is why I made this thread ? i know there are things I could overlook or just not think of at the moment.

It is indeed, painful. I regret taking this on sometimes, but am hoping the end result will be rewarding. I think any pole that is about to be used to teach a flying change should immediately combust and dissappear into a pile of dust ? I don't get it.


Very helpful so far everyone! Thank you!

 

[daffy44]

Totally agree that using a pole to teach the change is a nightmare waiting to happen!

I used to teach a couple of eventers who had been taught to change over a pole, and surprise surprise did nice neat late behind changes, so they understood the aid to change just didnt do it correctly. Renver was a useful exercise, but they key to fixing it was to make the canter quicker, I used to get them to do very quick walk, canter, walk, canter transitions. Not worrying too much how pretty the transitions were, not changing legs each time, just making everything quick, so literally never more then three strides in either pace, and when you feel the horse is really hot and bouncing ask for the change. No promises it will work for every horse, but this was by far the useful exercise I found to correct the few late behind, taught over a pole horses that I have worked with.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Small update:

Got some decent back to front proper flying changes today. I rode with my trainer and said, let's just do a bunch of them! So I rode him more forward than usual and that produced good results. So a good place to start. He even offered some version of tempi changes. He went change to right, to left, to right consecutively. He can get a bit more air time than needed - I think this goes back to the going over a pole thing (also thinks he is doing levade at the Spanish riding school, missed his calling, really ?) but had 2 really "low key" relaxed single changes that were through.

The best part is that after the "marathon of changes" I asked him to pick up a canter again, canter across the long diagonal, stay in counter canter, then trot, pick up other lead, ride a 20 m circle then relax back into a stretchy trot. This is HUGE for this horse as he tends to get a bit amped at times or anticipate. So nice for him to be relaxed after a rather intense (for him) flying change exercise.

We did changes in various places in the school and also from true canter to counter canter. Hopefully when I get on him next in the school (he deserves a good hack) we can pick up where we left off.

Since he is a creature prone to anticipation, I wasn't sure that doing so many changes would be good for his nervousness, but apparently not a problem today! Decided just to encourage him (the tempis were not my idea ? but otherwise he was obedient to my aids) and go for it. Could still backfire but all of the normal routes and exercises weren't doing the trick, so here we are.

I had a small complex about "practicing the wrong thing" in this case a late change, but I think I've just got to keep playing with it. Will add some renvers work next time. He did a good one coming out of half pass at the rail, actually. Tried to do all changes in close sequence too. Anyho, long winded, but wanted to update.

 

[nikkimariet]

Issues with changes are issues with the canter although some horses do just struggle with them.

Try gear changes and simple changes in counter canter and coming at that from a steep HP and counter LY to really get the idea across.

Ive no idea on your horses paces / temp but I’ve had those that benefit from being really fired at them in a big space and those that benefit from doing them facing the fence in a small canter to keep it altogether.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Issues with changes are issues with the canter although some horses do just struggle with them.

Try gear changes and simple changes in counter canter and coming at that from a steep HP and counter LY to really get the idea across.

Ive no idea on your horses paces / temp but I’ve had those that benefit from being really fired at them in a big space and those that benefit from doing them facing the fence in a small canter to keep it altogether.

I would normally say it is the canter and honestly, I sometimes wish it was. ? but in this case it is more mental and the whole pole thing. The gear changes are going well, even in counter canter. He has a nice, balanced, and adjustable counter canter.

I did have one trainer have me do them facing the wall/fence and it didn't yield as good of a result as really driving him forward at them in an open space. It was also (the wall exercise) the same pattern over and over with a single change, and I think that doesn't work for us/his mentality at the moment. I think spontaneous and frequent seem to be best for him. I think the wall made him a bit claustrophobic and he sort of exploded upward in the change. His quietest changes are in the "open" at the moment. It's in there, just have to get it out and break the habits. Another trainer agreed that it is not so much physical with him, but mental.

I do think the steep HP has potential to yield some good results too, as well as the LY. So, more playing around to be done.