Comparison video before and during bute trial

Goldenstar said:
Think carefully about spending your savings on another whole load of expensive diagnostics .
If he where mine I would be leading him from another horse to keep him moving long reining / lunging over raised one side poles in walk
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Really? What if it's soft tissue/ligament/tendon-related? All of that will cripple him for life!

Walks away shaking head.

P
 
Goldenstar said:
It's not great that the danilon helped only a little this sadly is exactly what happened with one of my oldies his pain was not cleared up on danilon either .
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The danillon didn't help because like I explained in my post he was on slippery elm and this prohibits the intake of drugs absorbed through the gut wall including danillon and bute. When I took him off the slippery elm it made a difference. When he stopped taking it he was okay for a time.
 
but not sound on 3 bute a day was your earlier point that I think GS was referring to? ie if it worked you could consider reducing his workload to hacking and buteing to keep him comfortable which isn't an option if large amounts of bute aren't helping.
 
PolarSkye said:
Has this not been done before? If not, I strongly recommend you change your vet.

Best of luck.

P
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I think people are forgetting that this is a horse that was originally diagnosed with a 'SLIGHT SPRAIN of the lateral branch of the supsensory ligament' so NOT even the actual suspensory but a branch off the suspensory.

He had all the treatment plans recommended for a horse with his injury in a timely manner and when one treatment didn't work and alternative course of treatment was considered and carried out. He was box rested, and brought back into work and I followed the vet to the letter.

Why would a vet undertake an MRI scan or a bone scan for a horse showing evidence on an ultrasound of a ligament injury in June 2011 when it first came to light???? Only now when we assumed that the right hopping was due to the overcompensation and the left unlevelness is due to the calcification in the ligament/coffin joint arthritis and the horse remains unsound am I suggesting this course of action. Everything has been ruled out in a sensible fashion.

I am not knocking you for your reply but I a curious why you would have suggested such drastic diagnostics at this stage in his injury? Its a bit like suggesting a CT scan and brain surgery for a migraine.
 
just re the coffin joint - F had no obvious arthritis on xray but blocked to coffin joint. Steroid +HA injections did not resolve the issue though, he was better initially but the effect wore off quickly/did not carry on when we started doing more than just walk.
 
PolarSkye said:
Really? What if it's soft tissue/ligament/tendon-related? All of that will cripple him for life!

Walks away shaking head.

P
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The vet recommended work I was trying to say what work I feel I would do with a horse in such a situation .
This horse has several issues including bony ones that don't like rest .
I screwed up an oldie resting it for a minor strain ( on vets advice ) we never got it right again I learned from that .
Now AC horse is not that old but he has had lots of issues which makes it really hard to find the way forward .
 
applecart14 said:
I think people are forgetting that this is a horse that was originally diagnosed with a 'SLIGHT SPRAIN of the lateral branch of the supsensory ligament' so NOT even the actual suspensory but a branch off the suspensory.

He had all the treatment plans recommended for a horse with his injury in a timely manner and when one treatment didn't work and alternative course of treatment was considered and carried out. He was box rested, and brought back into work and I followed the vet to the letter.

Why would a vet undertake an MRI scan or a bone scan for a horse showing evidence on an ultrasound of a ligament injury in June 2011 when it first came to light???? Only now when we assumed that the right hopping was due to the overcompensation and the left unlevelness is due to the calcification in the ligament/coffin joint arthritis and the horse remains unsound am I suggesting this course of action. Everything has been ruled out in a sensible fashion.

I am not knocking you for your reply but I a curious why you would have suggested such drastic diagnostics at this stage in his injury? Its a bit like suggesting a CT scan and brain surgery for a migraine.
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Short answer to the question in your final paragraph is because he is STILL not sound.

FWIW, injuries to the branch and body of the suspensory ligament are harder to treat and take longer to heal than those to the proximal part (top) . . . so to assume that because it's "just" a strain/sprain to the branch is just plain wrong.

I've been doing a lot of reading and talking to my vet about this following my boy's diagnosis of damage to his proximal suspensory . . .

http://www.horsejournals.com/suspensory-ligament-injuries-advances-diagnosis-and-treatment

"Horses with PSD of the forelimbs have a fairly good prognosis, with many horses responding to rest within three or four months. In contrast to this, horses with PSD of the hind limbs have a poor prognosis with rest alone. In one study, only 14 percent of horses with PSD of the hind limbs were able to return to work and remain sound. Injuries of the suspensory branches generally respond fairly well to rest alone, although some horses will require nine months or more before being able to return to work safely./"

Rest . . . not long-reining, lunging or working otherwise over poles, not jumping, not working at all. Rest.

Does your vet have x-ray eyes/is able to rule out further suspensory damage just by looking at his leg? Was the last time your horse was scanned/x-rayed, etc. really back in June 2011? Did your vet scan your horse to make sure the damage to the suspensory had healed? As he's been intermittently lame since, has your vet really not re-scanned to see if the injury has recurred?

You are within your rights to tell me to beggar off and that it's none of my business, but you asked the question when you posted the original thread.

I don't doubt that you love your horse . . . but I do question your vet's ability to effectively treat and diagnosis an intermittently but persistently lame horse.

P
 
I know it's been mentioned before, but i think that long periods of field rest have lost popularity with the rise of veterinary insurance. In some cases, you can throw all the latest fancy treatments and endless diagnostics at a problem but it wont help if the injury needs rest and time (especially when the length of time required is longer than the 1 year cut off of the insurance).
 
Haven't read any replies before posting as I didn't want to be influenced. He looks worse behind than in front to me. I don't think the bute trial has made any difference (though I can't view the second pre bute video as it says private). Worst leg seems to be right hind. My gut feeling from how he moves is it is hock, possibly stifle. Front only looks slightly lame on left.
 
OK just read the thread. I am not one who thinks much of bute trials as many types of pain are not helped at all by bute. A bute trial CAN tell you if the only issue is pain if they get better with it, but not getting any better with bute does not mean the horse is pain free and the lameness is mechanical.
 
Hi applecart....
TBH...there was little difference for me before and after.
If this was my horse....regardless of any previous history....I would do an EMS test....
I am not here to judge....just say what I would do.
Best of luck with the boy:)
Bryndu
 
Hi AP - for me he doesn't seem very willing to go forward and the lameness looks to be at the front. Having said that, he looks a little different on all videos so he could be bi-laterally lame or lame front and back? Unfortunately, until your vet can establish where the pain is coming from it's very difficult for him to diagnose the problem and until you know what you are dealing with you can't treat it. In other words it's a vicious circle :(

if you trust your vet then stick with him otherwise I'd get a second opinion.

I probably put the human element into it too much although, if I had a bad leg I might take a pain killer but I wouldn't exert myself, I would take it easy for a while and that's what I follow with animals.

Good luck
 
Wagtail said:
OK just read the thread. I am not one who thinks much of bute trials as many types of pain are not helped at all by bute. A bute trial CAN tell you if the only issue is pain if they get better with it, but not getting any better with bute does not mean the horse is pain free and the lameness is mechanical.
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This is spot on many types of pain are not sensitive to danilon and the like but it's does not mean the horse does not have pain .
 
Hi guys.

The vet came out and said his suspensory branch was down, he was not reactive to palpitation and there was no heat in his foot. He was not reactive to hoof testers. I lunged him in the school which has the less better of the two surfaces and the vet said he was sounder he had seen him. By this time I'd reduced his bute down to one and a half sachets a day.

The vet said that the worse thing I could do would be to turn him away for a few months - he said he has seen many horses with Bailey's problems just fall apart once out of work for any length of time. He also stated that there was no reason to turn him away and that I should just get on with things and enjoy him.

He said I should keep him ticking over with regular work including hacking, schooling and jumping. He says that people that have commented about my horses condition do not know him like he does, he has been Bailey's vet for a number of years and has carried out many treatments on him and knows the horses limitations and his way of overcompensating. He says as long as the horse is willing and happy then there is nothing wrong with him being in full work. If the suspensory gets inflammed and is warm/hot and comes up then to back of the work until it goes again.

Since he has been out I have reduced the bute to one sachet and have hacked, schooled for twenty minutes and have done a little grid work at 2ft 3. His branch continues to remain down and he is fine and happy in himself.

He said that with Bailey, probably what we see as unlevelness is more than likely down to mechanical lameness and that I should leave him on one bute a day and see how we get on.

He said that the day he saw the horse (Friday) he was not lame, was tracking up and quite active behind and swinging through. He is very pleased with the off hind as it tracks up really well.

I will try and put on here a link to the footage of us in the dually on Thursday evening the day before the vet came out.

I am glad that I called the vet out. After being told to turn him away for the summer and have him PTS at the end of it by someone it really upset me.

He has his physio in a few weeks so I will get advice from the physio and in the meantime continue with his stretching exercises.
 
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I'm astounded at your vet and your attitutude to this! Your horse is lame, on pain relief and despite the fact that there is no diagnosis you are just told to crack on and hope for the best?!

You've said that your vet thinks your horse is sound but any unlevelness (which wasn't there when he saw him) comes from a mechanical lameness. This would raise huge warning bells for me - a mechanical lameness IS NOT pain related and should not improve on bute. Your horse is in pain (as he's sound with bute) and you think it's ok to jump, school and hack him without knowing the cause?!

I'm truly flabbergasted and think you need another opinion as whilst hacking in walk in straight lines is unlikely to do too much damage, jumping and schooling could be catastrophic.
 
applecart14 said:
Hi guys.

The vet came out and said his suspensory branch was down, he was not reactive to palpitation and there was no heat in his foot. He was not reactive to hoof testers. I lunged him in the school which has the less better of the two surfaces and the vet said he was sounder he had seen him. By this time I'd reduced his bute down to one and a half sachets a day.

He said that the day he saw the horse (Friday) he was not lame, was tracking up and quite active behind and swinging through. He is very pleased with the off hind as it tracks up really well.
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So, which is it? Is he sounder than he was (but still lame) or is he sound? Is he sound off bute?

I remain baffled by this . . . if I am understanding correctly, your vet doesn't know (because he hasn't endeavoured to find out) where the lameness/unlevelness is coming from but is still happy for you to crack on and work Bailey on bute . . . is that right?

P
 
Look I have done the best I can with this horse and given him every treatment known to man in an effort to get him right. If the vet says to crack on and stop worrying than that is what I am doing. He thinks that a sachet of bute a day will suffice although he may not need the bute at all.

It isn't that the vet hasn't bothered to find out. But he is a genuine honest vet that knows that I am no longer insured on this leg (if it is this leg) and there is nothing else to do without thousands of investigative work being spent which may/may not bring us any nearer to finding out what is wrong. He says I can either retire him in which case he will go down hill dramatically or kick on with things and see how he goes.

There are thousands of horses in this country that exist on a sachet of bute. And if Bailey can no longer jump or school then I will keep him hacking. BUt I need to try. There is nothing that would suggest that continuing with working him will be catastrophic to his condition, again the vet has told me this. The calcification that he has in his leg will not cause his tendon to snap or his leg to break. The arthitis that is in his coffin joint has been managed fantastically for over eight years. His hock spavin has been dealt with as he has no more pain in his hocks. I do his physio neck stretches religoulsy and he is under a physio. He has the best of everything.

If the horse over does things then he will become unsound. In which case I am to back of schooling and jumping and just hack out. I am to monitor his suspensory branch before and after riding and don't do too much work to soon. Currently I am schooling him twice a week for 25mins and having a jumping session of two foot three once a week jumping the fence about eight times in total from a slow trot. The other times he is being hacked out.

I never lunge and check that the surface is good.
I am on pain killers myself for two slipped discs and plantar fasicitis so I don't see anything wrong with my horse being on them too if it helps him.

And as the vet said Bailey couldn't be looking any happier or weller (if that is a word!) He is on one sachet of bute now, I intend to have a quick hack tonight and then trot in the school after and see how he is. Then I will reduce the bute further if he remains sound.

I am sorry that you all think that I wrong but I have done as much as I can and I can't do anymore.
 
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Managing and deciding how to manage this type of horse who is carrying lots of issues is hard .
Personally I don't ride lame horses unless a vet can give a very good reason to do so in a acute type situation .
I think it damages your 'feel 'as a rider and just won't do it ( and I am just not comfortable with it from the horses POV as well )
However MrGS has has several older hunters who we have managed for years with careful work load and with pain relief at times however when they are unlevel on pain relief we called it a day .I don't mean Sound on a 10 metre circle on Tarmac I have several who worked years sound and happy who we're never sound on a hard ground 10m circle test .
AC you make your own choice with your horse , it's not the choice I would make but it's your call and all you have to be is comfortable with the choice yourself .
I am being in any way judgemental in my views on this I know from personal experiance these things are complicated and not black and white but you can only say on threads like this what you feel .
 
Am I the only one who looked at the videos and thought the horse didn't look that bad for a 17yr old that has had a number of issues and is probably arthritic? My mare at 17yrs doesn't look any better but she is on bute and in light work. It hasn't done her any harm.
 
OP please forgive me if you have mentioned this already (have trawled through the pages and cannot see it referenced so thought it may be worth a comment), what treatment has Bailey had for his coffin joint arthritis? I ask only as my mare was diagnosed 2 years ago with osteoarthritis of the coffin joint in her near foreleg. She was intermittently lame and the diagnosis took a while as it was assumed soft tissue damage initially. Her treatment was remedial shoeing, a course of Cartrophen and a supplement (Nutraquin Plus). I expected to only be able to hack her but she came right steadily and except for when pulling off a shoe stayed lovely and sound. Until a period of box rest this year where she went off again afterwards. Cue more Cartrophen and regular walking/individual turnout for a few weeks and she is now just sound again.
For her, as I guess with any arthritic, it's getting the balance of exercise right to prevent them from seizing up - without causing any inflammation through exertion. If he's been in regular work which has been built up steadily and not pushed too far, for that part at least the exercise would be beneficial.
 
vanrim said:
Am I the only one who looked at the videos and thought the horse didn't look that bad for a 17yr old that has had a number of issues and is probably arthritic? My mare at 17yrs doesn't look any better but she is on bute and in light work. It hasn't done her any harm.
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Thank you. This is what my vet is trying to say. Yes, he could go down the route of further investigation but if the horse can remain comfortable on bute then this is probably the best scenario. It doesn't mean you are trying to mask lameness or be cruel. But so long as his ears are pricked, he eats his feed, and rolls and runs in the field, he will be on this planet and will continue to be ridden and enjoy his hacking and jumping.

Last night he felt forward going and keen and his ears were forward.
 
mairiwick said:
OP please forgive me if you have mentioned this already (have trawled through the pages and cannot see it referenced so thought it may be worth a comment), what treatment has Bailey had for his coffin joint arthritis? .
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Hi. He was diagnosed with moderate to severe arthritis of the coffin joint in 2005 and had one injection. Then he had another in approx 2011 and one in about Feb/March this year (sorry time is flying by). In 2005 he had rehab and remedial shoeing with the Equipak and then the pads and this helped but I am not sure if this really was the problem or not anyway.

But to go from 2005 to 2011 on one injection when the diagnosis was moderate to severe arthritis of the coffin joint is weird. Call me sceptical. The horse had an active splint at the time and I queried whether it was this but on palpatation he didn't react. (This is typically what Bailey is like, one day you press something and he will go through the roof. Press it ten mins later and no reaction at all!). It really makes diagnosis difficult. But if you xrayed a lot of horses you woudl find they had changes without it making a difference to their soundness.

Anyway I was told to put him back into full work after a week following the coffin joint injection early this year but instead gave it more days. When he was still lame I queried this with the vet and he said to give it longer. So I gave it another two maybe three weeks before calling him out (which was last Friday).

He supposes that the horse is still lame due to the suspensory branch and if he overdoes it in the field (which would tie in with when he was moved to the new yard and turned out on his second day and went balistic in the field until I could quickly get him in).

It is difficult to get a balance right. When he first went on the bute trial he was lame on three bute and I was extremely concerned. But then days later he was sounder on two bute which confused me even more. He is extremely reactive to ride also, so if you check him with the rein even slightly he will do a little hop, which is why I rode him in the dually the other evening and is the video that the vet saw when he came to visit last week. he is not as reactive to the dually when ridden as he is to a bit - he is or can be a very bridle lame horse, and I can actually make him look lame by riding him and half halting him incorrectly and can make him do a funny hop. The Vet said he's struggled to see anything wrong with the horse when he saw the video I'd take of him lunging and of him being ridden. This is why he suggested keeping him on bute. This is why I am reducing it as I am obvioulsy not going to keep a horse ridden on three bute a day, but if I can reduce it to one a day then I will do so. I have only moved to the new place three weeks ago, prior to that as I explained he was being chased through deep mud by a pack of out of control dogs so hopefully things will settle down given tieme.

I am no maximum dose painkillers for my problems yet I am still 'lame' once they have started to wear off. But when I am 'sound' and not in pain I still walk differently because I have been over compensating for so long. This is what the vet said he thought Bailey did.


I am glad your mare is ok.
 
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vanrim said:
Am I the only one who looked at the videos and thought the horse didn't look that bad for a 17yr old that has had a number of issues and is probably arthritic? My mare at 17yrs doesn't look any better but she is on bute and in light work. It hasn't done her any harm.
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My 16 year old would be more lame than Bailey on the lunge, he has SI issues which despite medicating twice and hydrotherapy mean that he is unsound on a circle.

The vet has told me not to stop working him as without work the muscles around the SI area with drop off and he will become more unsound. He also loves working and doing stuff so he is kept in hacking work as he is sound in a straight line, with the hard ground recently he has been feeling a bit off again when trotting up hill and the vet has suggested bute to help and another go at medicating the SI joint.

I am happy for him to have the bute if it keeps him in work as I think he is happier doing something than being stuck in the field and the vet is confident that working him won't cause any further damage.
 
applecart14 said:
he was being chased through deep mud by a pack of out of control dogs so hopefully things will settle down given tieme
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So this happened to a horse with known suspensory branch problems and you still plan to work him, without scanning him? Genuinely baffled.

P
 
Leg_end said:
I'm astounded at your vet and your attitutude to this! Your horse is lame, on pain relief and despite the fact that there is no diagnosis you are just told to crack on and hope for the best?!

You've said that your vet thinks your horse is sound but any unlevelness (which wasn't there when he saw him) comes from a mechanical lameness. This would raise huge warning bells for me - a mechanical lameness IS NOT pain related and should not improve on bute. Your horse is in pain (as he's sound with bute) and you think it's ok to jump, school and hack him without knowing the cause?!

I'm truly flabbergasted and think you need another opinion as whilst hacking in walk in straight lines is unlikely to do too much damage, jumping and schooling could be catastrophic.
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Late to this but quite frankly terrified by this vet! Please get a second opinion.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
Late to this but quite frankly terrified by this vet! Please get a second opinion.
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This. At the end of the day, he's your horse . . . and I don't doubt that you love him very much . . . but I think your vet is not necessarily serving either you or him particularly well . . .

P
 
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