Comparison video before and during bute trial

PolarSkye said:
So this happened to a horse with known suspensory branch problems and you still plan to work him, without scanning him? Genuinely baffled.

P
Click to expand...

Why get him scanned when off the bute there is no inflammation or heat present? We know we will see calcification within the branch as it is there for life. When he had his coffin joint injected in Feb/March?? he had been in the situation with the dogs for a long time as had everyone on the yard. I was desparately attempting to find somewhere else for him, despite being placated by the YO that my horse actually enjoyed being chased and was having 'fun' playing with the dogs. I knew this would be extremely unlikely and when I saw it happen for myself one morning it broke my heart.

When he had the steroid he was three tenths lame. There was no heat or swelling. The only option the vet could consider at the time was the coffin joint. When the horse improved from three tenths lame to one tenth after the nerve block into the foot the vet injected the coffin joint with steroid the following day. Surely this is the correct procedure and what all vets would have done. The remaining one tenth lame was attributed to the suspensory branch.

I'm not going to labour further on this post now. You have all made your points and whether valid or not I have read them and listened to your points of view.

I cannot afford to have a second opinion or go for expensive scans, I am still paying off a £500 vets bill.

I have taken professional advice and am listening to it.
 
applecart14 said:
Why get him scanned when off the bute there is no inflammation or heat present? We know we will see calcification within the branch as it is there for life. When he had his coffin joint injected in Feb/March?? he had been in the situation with the dogs for a long time as had everyone on the yard. I was desparately attempting to find somewhere else for him, despite being placated by the YO that my horse actually enjoyed being chased and was having 'fun' playing with the dogs. I knew this would be extremely unlikely and when I saw it happen for myself one morning it broke my heart.

When he had the steroid he was three tenths lame. There was no heat or swelling. The only option the vet could consider at the time was the coffin joint. When the horse improved from three tenths lame to one tenth after the nerve block into the foot the vet injected the coffin joint with steroid the following day. Surely this is the correct procedure and what all vets would have done. The remaining one tenth lame was attributed to the suspensory branch.

I'm not going to labour further on this post now. You have all made your points and whether valid or not I have read them and listened to your points of view.

I cannot afford to have a second opinion or go for expensive scans, I am still paying off a £500 vets bill.

I have taken professional advice and am listening to it.
Click to expand...

Not going to continue to put across my point of view - but I am interested in the calcification within the branches of the suspensory ligament. Could you elaborate? Calcification is a bony process, not a soft tissue one, and I'm trying to figure out how it can be present in a ligament.
 
Auslander said:
Not going to continue to put across my point of view - but I am interested in the calcification within the branches of the suspensory ligament. Could you elaborate? Calcification is a bony process, not a soft tissue one, and I'm trying to figure out how it can be present in a ligament.
Click to expand...

There are conditions where ligaments literally turn to bone ie. calcify, I believe. I remember a friend of mine had a very expensive dressage horse PTS for the condition. It really is quite a horrible painful disease. I have not read applecarts historical posts, so I don't know if it's a similar condition or not.
 
There is rarely swelling/ heat associated with ligament injuries, partly due to the nature of the location of the ligament (you can only feel a tiny part of it from the outside of the leg) and partly due to the nature of the structure.
I'd say you cannot know what's going on in there without a scan
 
Wagtail said:
There are conditions where ligaments literally turn to bone ie. calcify, I believe. I remember a friend of mine had a very expensive dressage horse PTS for the condition. It really is quite a horrible painful disease. I have not read applecarts historical posts, so I don't know if it's a similar condition or not.
Click to expand...

Not sure. i can only assume that in this case, there is calcification at the point of insertion - which can't be good, but this horse is not in pain, and is workable, so it can't be the condition you refer to
 
TheMule said:
There is rarely swelling/ heat associated with ligament injuries, partly due to the nature of the location of the ligament (you can only feel a tiny part of it from the outside of the leg) and partly due to the nature of the structure.
I'd say you cannot know what's going on in there without a scan
Click to expand...

That's what I thought - my ortho vet said that a cool leg was no guarantee that there wasn't something going on in the suspensory, and that palpation was an inaccurate way of diagnosing/assessing, because you couldn't feel an awful lot of it.
 
Auslander said:
That's what I thought - my ortho vet said that a cool leg was no guarantee that there wasn't something going on in the suspensory, and that palpation was an inaccurate way of diagnosing/assessing, because you couldn't feel an awful lot of it.
Click to expand...

My vet said the same thing today - while we were looking at scans and x-rays of Kali's legs. There had been no heat, no swelling, and we only isolated the pain/lameness (barely lame) by nerve blocking and watching him move VERY carefully (and videoing so we could look again, and again, and again).

The x-rays and the scans showed clear damage that wouldn't have been picked up with hands and eyes alone . . . and it wasn't until the vet clipped (well shaved really) his legs that we felt the barest hint of warmth in the affected area.

Just based on what the OP has said, I'm worried that her vet hasn't done a thorough enough investigation to know exactly where the lameness is and what's causing it - and until that's been done, working the horse is foolhardy.

P
 
ok, first of all, *hugs* ..... you are getting a bit of a hard time on this thread!

FWIW, as someone with a horse who has just had the PSD opp and also has SI pain (so is now in early rehab stages), and another horse who has KS but is actually better for being in work - oh, and another horse who is decidedly short in his stride (has significant sidebone in front) but otherwise "sound" (whatever that means), I have a few thoughts to offer:

1. Is he happy when ridden? Most horses will tell you somehow if they're not. So long as you're listening to him and respect what he tells you then within that guideline if you listen to your current vet's advice, then that's an entirely different ballpark from pushing an unhappy horse.

2. Now, don't get me wrong, I love my regular vet. However, taking a trip up to the AHT to see Sue Dyson about my mare who was then diagnosed with PSD & SI pain was a real eye opener. Sue is simply amazing at spotting the cause of lameness (and then obviously backs that up with appropriate diagnostics). As much as you like and trust your current vet, if I were you I'd still push for a trip to the AHT, if you can. Sue is well respected in the veterinary community as being practically a God in her field and so a referral to her really isn't something that your vet should take offence at.

3. As tempting as it is to work a not quite right horse, the problem is for all the times that it is right to do that, there are as many times when it's not. Problem is you just don't know without diagnosis.

wishing you and your horse the very best in whatever you decide to do. X
 
Well I am one who thinks that's there's no point in paying shed loads of money for diagnostics when you know what's there already .
I hope he's going on ok AC .
 
SD is like marmite ,they say she can find lamenesses in perfectly sound horses? It wont be cheap and I can think of places I would send any of mine first!
 
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23210&thumb=1

Not sure if this link will work, but here is the xray showing Bailey's calcification it the white area on the right.

The vet says it will not get larger and because its floating and not attached to anything it should not create too many problems, but he may have to be on bute every day (one sachet) if it is painful for him.

I'd just like to say that with my horse whenever he has had a problem with his suspensory branch and he has tweaked it the area comes up with warmth and swelling. When it is good it is cool to the touch and completely down. The horse is always the same.

The vet has said that if the area is ever swollen and warm and does not go down properly if ice is applied or he is walked then this indicates a problem.

This is where the danger of these forums come in to play. I know people like to comment on things as I do myself, but where a vet and a person know a horse inside out, and know what symptoms it displays is normal for that horse then its hard to explain to people that don't know the horse.

Bails has terrible windgalls on his back legs (caused by galloping down a hill on very hard summer ground in the field at the first yard he was at in the first two weeks of owning him) and sometimes they swell right up. But this is normal for him. ride him and they dissapear. But take a photo or explain them to someone and people would say 'get the vet out/have him pts' and about ten thousand other comments in between.

So thanks for everyone's comments, and thanks for all your help. xx
 
Last edited by a moderator:
** UPDATE ***

I took Bailey to Weston Lawns yesterday after I had clearance to carry on with him in full work following a mystery lameness. It was his first time back jumping for five months and I was really excited but nervous too.

He loaded within about a minute and a half and we jumped clear in the 2ft 6 clear round and did a two foot six class and had a double clear although I didn't race him round the jump off but took things steady. He didn't spook like he normally did and I was delighted with him.

Afterwards I took him back to the trailer and washed him off, fly sprayed him, put his fly rug on and put an instant ice pack on him just in case.

According to my friends that were there they said he looked well and wasn't in the least bit lame so I am delighted with him. He stood tied up to the trailer without bother for hours and I let him have a pick of the grass for a while too after the class.

I did worry after the class as I heard a funny noise coming from his leg so when I got him back home I turned him loose in the indoor school and it sounded like a clicking from a ligament. I was getting a little paranoid by this stage until I found out the noise was coming from a loose shoe! The farrier is hopefully coming back tommorow to put another nail in it! Phew.

Here is the photo I took of him chilling between classes (his eyes were half shut) and a photo the photographer took of us in the class.

So pleased, looks like we are back running again.

My partner has booked me if to a 70cm mini one day event next saturday if it still goes ahead with the weather, its only twelve little XC fences so shouldn't be any problem. I am looking forward to it. Have the physio coming tommorow so will see what she thinks may be wrong with him.




http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/...4/SANY2272.jpg

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/...4/SANY2279.jpg

THIS IS US LAST JUNE - http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/i411/applecart14/SANY1524b.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top