Concern for barefoot horses

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spotty_pony

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I don't know much about barefoot trimming but from what I have seen, I don't agree with it. I know somebody who uses one and their horses are very foot sore all of the time, barely able to walk across stones and yesterday the barefoot trimmer made one of them bleed. :( IMO this is barbaric and I feel sorry for the poor horses.

What is everybody else's opinion on barefoot trimming?
 
ShowJumping Superstars said:
I don't know much about barefoot trimming but from what I have seen, I don't agree with it. I know somebody who uses one and their horses are very foot sore all of the time, barely able to walk across stones and yesterday the barefoot trimmer made one of them bleed. :( IMO this is barbaric and I feel sorry for the poor horses.

What is everybody else's opinion on barefoot trimming?
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As for farriers...they are good and bad barefoot trimmers.
I am very happy with mine, she has done lots of longgggggg training (and still does clinics etc) with Jaime Jackson (look on google for more info!) and has never made my ponys feet bleed or foot sore otherwise she would have never come back!!!
You have different "schools" of training but I am sure someone else with more knowledge than me can tell you all about it even though I know some differences as my friend uses an EP (equine podiatric) and not a "barefoot trimmer" :-)

My pony has been barefoot for now 5 years, he is 17, I ride him everyday in Summer (I only hack but on all sorts of surfaces) and 4 times/week in Winter (this Winter my sharer will ride him on the days I can't) and only for a short time when the grass came through in Spring he was a bit sensitive on gravel but this was because of the grass, not my barefoot trimmer!
I also do fast rides at the weekend, often 15miles trot with some canter (I did an 16km endurance ride end of July as well) and he has always been fine!
 
YOu are quite correct, the trimming you have seen is unacceptable and barefoot horses should not be unsound on difficult surfaces.

Thankfully, the vast majority of barefoot horses, like my hunter and eventers, are better off without shoes and taking the shoes off is turning out to be the most successful cure for navicular syndrome and tendon and ligament damage within the foot by a very, very large margin.

Report the trimmer you have seen, they are committing a criminal offence by drawing blood.
 
These might help
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=474673&highlight=barefoot
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=474870&highlight=barefoot
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=476392&highlight=barefoot
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=475084&highlight=barefoot
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=472647&highlight=barefoot

In short, there should be no bleeding and the horses shouldn't be lamed. I understand from another forum that there has been a dodgy case of trimming recently involving several horses, maybe you are talking about the same thing. However, hopefully the above threads will reassure you that "barefooters" aren't all standing by watching their horses being crippled.
 
cptrayes said:
Report the trimmer you have seen, they are committing a criminal offence by drawing blood.
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report to who? a farrier must be registered to shoe a horse but as far as I was aware anyone could trim a horse???? granted i'd only ever have a farrier do anything with my horses feet.
 
ShowJumping Superstars said:
I don't know much about barefoot trimming but from what I have seen, I don't agree with it. I know somebody who uses one and their horses are very foot sore all of the time, barely able to walk across stones and yesterday the barefoot trimmer made one of them bleed. :( IMO this is barbaric and I feel sorry for the poor horses.

What is everybody else's opinion on barefoot trimming?
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You're right. It is barbaric and totally illegal.

Find out who this trimmer is affiliated with and report them.

No trimmer (or farrier) should make a horse sore after a trim and definately should not be causing bleeding.

My trimmer (UKNHCP) would never do this.

However this was exactly what a farrier's apprentice did to one of my horses and this is why I use a trimmer now.

There's good and bad in every profession so please don't assume all trimmers would do this - there are plenty of farriers out there lameing horses too.

It's not acceptable no matter who does it.
 
competitiondiva said:
report to who? a farrier must be registered to shoe a horse but as far as I was aware anyone could trim a horse???? granted i'd only ever have a farrier do anything with my horses feet.
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Report to their professional association. Unless whoever had them in to trim didn't do the basic common-sense thing and check that they were actually qualified to be working as a trimmer of course.
 
Tinypony said:
Report to their professional association. Unless whoever had them in to trim didn't do the basic common-sense thing and check that they were actually qualified to be working as a trimmer of course.
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this is my point, as far as i am aware to trim a horse's feet you do not by law need to have any qualifications or be associated to any professional organisation??
 
competitiondiva said:
report to who? a farrier must be registered to shoe a horse but as far as I was aware anyone could trim a horse???? granted i'd only ever have a farrier do anything with my horses feet.
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To the Police. They are breaking the animal welfare act. It is a criminal offence to deliberately draw blood when trimming a horse unless you are a Vet. Technically even a farrier isn't allowed to diagnose and treat a foot abscess. By law, only a VET can diagnose, and only an injury or illness (which requires diagnosis first) can be treated by cutting the foot so that you draw blood.

If this was a Strasser trained trimmer, report them! It has already been established in case law that an invasive Strasser trim is illegal. No other trimming method deliberately draws blood and if this trimmer was incompetent enough to do so by mistake then they still need reporting under the animal welfare act.
 
competitiondiva said:
this is my point, as far as i am aware to trim a horse's feet you do not by law need to have any qualifications or be associated to any professional organisation??
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It is not illegal to trim. It IS illegal to mutilate the foot. It is also VERY common for farriers to draw blood by mistake and very UNcommon for a paid trimmer to do so.
 
competitiondiva said:
this is my point, as far as i am aware to trim a horse's feet you do not by law need to have any qualifications or be associated to any professional organisation??
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The point is that anyone with any sense would only use a trimmer once they have checked that they are properly qualified. Which means that you do have a professional body to refer to if you aren't happy.

And I agree with the others, to mutilate a foot is illegal and the owner should contact the police.
 
Op, I hope that a read through the threads I've linked to will help to answer your question:

"What is everybody else's opinion on barefoot trimming?"

There are all sorts of views on there.

Will you be reporting this trimmer to the police? Or maybe the RSPCA? What is the owner doing about it?
 
competitiondiva said:
this is my point, as far as i am aware to trim a horse's feet you do not by law need to have any qualifications or be associated to any professional organisation??
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You are correct, it isn't law to be a member of an organisation to trim or even to have qualifications.

But an owner would be severely remiss to engage the services of someone without checking that they have done some training and qualifications. And that they are affiliated with a governing body and have adequate insurance.

I (personally) would only use a UKNHCP or AANHCP trained trimmer, but there are other organisations that have good trimmers.

I would also only use someone with personal recommendation.

If someone can't be bothered to do the necessary checks beforehand - they should stick with the local farrier (as long as he/she is registered;)).
 
I can just imagine the police reaction to someone calling and telling them you want an arrest made as the trimmer cut too much off the hoof and drew blood. Considering the state of our country at the moment I think you might get sent packing somehow.
 
I would question the 'professional' association, these are unregulated, can be set up by anyone, provide courses which are not validated by any external body, provide certificates of competence with no referance to any external examiner and I am always interested to know who validates their work. I am also interested to know about the codes of conduct and who ensures that they are adhered to.
Most professions have protected title, eg teachers, doctors social worker and farriers. It is not legal to claim that you belong to one of these professions unless you have obtained the qualification required (validated by an external body) and have the necessary registration
 
You are correct about the weaknesses of trimming qualifications and associations, but until more farriers stop insisting that horses need shoes on to work hard, what are people who know this is not true supposed to do?

Where is someone supposed to go if they have a lame navicular horse in bar shoes who the vet and farrier are telling them must be retired or put to sleep?

Who do other folk with what should be sound horses turn to if their farrier trims as if he were going to fit a shoe, and leaves their horse lame after every trim because he insists on taking off toe callous to "balance" the foot?

And why NOT use someone who can show you dozens of hardworking and sound barefoot horses in their care?
 
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Find a good farrier and work with him/her, find one who works with the horse in front of them. If more people found out more and were willing to enter into intelligent discussion with the professionals who work with their animals, there would be less opportunity for the poor professionals the pseudo professionals to ply their trades. If you don't like the job your farrier does, then find one you do agree with, likewise vets, dentists physios etc. It is entirely possible to do this and if more horse owners insisted on this (and yes possibly pay more, which usually works out cheaper in the long run) the 'hobby' owner would be less likely to be fodder for charlatans and arrogant professionals.
 
I feel like I'm wizzing round and round in a revolving door. Haven't we said all of this several times in the last couple of weeks?
People use barefoot trimmers and if they have any sense they make sure they are reputable. Some people find the barefoot trimmers more effective than farriers. Some even trim their own horses' hooves. Others prefer to use farriers and wouldn't dream of doing anything to their own horses hooves. If they have any sense they too make sure that the farrier is reputable. There are some stunning good farriers out there, and there are some stunning good barefoot trimmers. Barefoot trimmers aren't charlatans, any more than farriers are - but there are those in both professions who are complete rubbish.
There's not point in railing against this and trying to score points off each side, this is how it is and the "barefoot trimming" movement isn't going to go into reverse now. So can we get over it maybe?
 
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If you don't like them, don't use them..simple! Voice your concerns to those using them on the yard.

I've always used a farrier for my barefoot horses.
 
Tinypony said:
I feel like I'm wizzing round and round in a revolving door. Haven't we said all of this several times in the last couple of weeks?
People use barefoot trimmers and if they have any sense they make sure they are reputable. Some people find the barefoot trimmers more effective than farriers. Some even trim their own horses' hooves. Others prefer to use farriers and wouldn't dream of doing anything to their own horses hooves. If they have any sense they too make sure that the farrier is reputable. There are some stunning good farriers out there, and there are some stunning good barefoot trimmers. Barefoot trimmers aren't charlatans, any more than farriers are - but there are those in both professions who are complete rubbish.
There's not point in railing against this and trying to score points off each side, this is how it is and the "barefoot trimming" movement isn't going to go into reverse now. So can we get over it maybe?
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exactly !!!!
 
cptrayes said:
You are correct about the weaknesses of trimming qualifications and associations, but until more farriers stop insisting that horses need shoes on to work hard, what are people who know this is not true supposed to do?

Where is someone supposed to go if they have a lame navicular horse in bar shoes who the vet and farrier are telling them must be retired or put to sleep?

Who do other folk with what should be sound horses turn to if their farrier trims as if he were going to fit a shoe, and leaves their horse lame after every trim because he insists on taking off toe callous to "balance the foot
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I think they could maybe turn to another farrier. not all farriers are incompetant. My farrier had my boys feet in spot on condition and it was him who suggested removing his shoes. My mare who has shoes also has great feet. Another horse i know had its shoes removed because of navicular and the farrier still does a good job.
I always think it is funny that the trimmer type people always have a go about the farriers being scathing towards them and being closed minded, but it is ok for them to have that attitude towards farriers.
 
Barefoot trimmers may or may not be charlatans, they do not have to belong to any regulatory body, there is no one regulatory body, they do not have protected title, they do not have externaly vallidated training courses. I am not suggesting that they go into reverse, merely that they should be subjected to the above, thus providing a reasonably standardised service, with a properly published code of conduct across all their practitioners, protected title so that it is not possible for anyone without correct training being able to set up in business
 
YorksG said:
If you don't like the job your farrier does, then find one you do agree with, likewise vets, dentists physios etc. It is entirely possible to do this
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This is unfortunately not true. There are many largeg areas of the country with very poor farrier coverage where people are stuck with farriers who they do not entirely trust. Half of Scotland, and some of Yorkshire are two places I am aware of.

Even in Cheshire, which is overrun with horses and farriers, I would find it difficult to find a farrier who has any barefoot hunters on his books. Incidentally when I started my two-farrier team told me that the horse I wanted to take barefoot would never be able to work without shoes. Most farriers still seem to believe that if you are going to do large amounts of roadwork and work the horse on rough tracks then it must have shoes, so it would be a struggle to find a farrier to trim a hunter who believed it could be done.

I trim for myself but if I was to pay a trimmer to trim my horse, farrier or non-farrier, I would want one who could show me that they had horses in their care doing that amount of work. It would be far, far easier to find a trimmer-trimmer who meets that condition than a farrier-trimmer.
 
OK, this might be hijacking a bit, but this thread seems to be gathering together people who will know the answer to my question. My horse is shod with bar shoes in front and lateral extensions behind.
The farrier says she has thin soles but from reading some of the other threads that were linked to this one it seems that sole thickness is not a conformation thing so much as how much callus the farrier trims off in preparation for shoeing. Is that correct?
I am thinking about trying my horse without hind shoes this winter. Is there anything I can do to help her? She will be stabled at night and turned out and ridden every day (can't not move due to arthritis). She is already on a laminitic diet. I read in cptrayes' posts that magnesium helps which is in the balancer that I feed. Is there anything else that I should do? I figure if it doesn't work they can always go back on, but my shoeing is getting more and more remedial and ridiculous...
 
Well cptrays, I am in Yorkshire and while I am aware of some farriers I would not dream of using, also know those who do work with their clients, based on the animal they are working on/with. Having had shod and unshod horses, in work, not in work etc. I have not found this to be a problem. At one point many years ago we used one farrier twice, disliked his shoeing/hoof care and changed to a different one, whose shoeing and training we did approve of. Voting with your wallet does have an effect, you are the paying customer and can choose to not use someone who you do not agree with.
 
cptrayes said:
You are correct about the weaknesses of trimming qualifications and associations, but until more farriers stop insisting that horses need shoes on to work hard, what are people who know this is not true supposed to do?

Where is someone supposed to go if they have a lame navicular horse in bar shoes who the vet and farrier are telling them must be retired or put to sleep?

Who do other folk with what should be sound horses turn to if their farrier trims as if he were going to fit a shoe, and leaves their horse lame after every trim because he insists on taking off toe callous to "balance" the foot?

And why NOT use someone who can show you dozens of hardworking and sound barefoot horses in their care?
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chestnuttymare said:
I think they could maybe turn to another farrier. not all farriers are incompetant. My farrier had my boys feet in spot on condition and it was him who suggested removing his shoes. My mare who has shoes also has great feet. Another horse i know had its shoes removed because of navicular and the farrier still does a good job.
I always think it is funny that the trimmer type people always have a go about the farriers being scathing towards them and being closed minded, but it is ok for them to have that attitude towards farriers.
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Why would you bother going to another farrier when one has already told you to put your horse to sleep, and it is the trimming organisations who are proving how incredibly succesful barefoot rehabs are? Wouldn't you go to the people who have made the discovery and put it into practice?

Why would you risk another farrier when your current one takes off sole callous and leaves your horse sore every trim? The next one might do the same. Why not just go to the people, trimmers, who have been taught that sole callous should be removed only in very rare circumstances?

You are lucky with your farrier. Other people including me have different stories, and very recent ones including a farrier at a top equine hospital, who couldn't spot a poor (farrier) barefoot trim that was under his nose. Until more farrier apprentices train with masters who have hardworking barefoot horses on their books, the use of a farrier for trimming a barefoot horse will continue to be a lottery. The quality of the training to work barefoot is currently wholly dependent on what the master has on his books. That should change and trimming/nutrition/conditioning for barefoot work should be fully included in the curriculum instead a lottery of who you train with.
 
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