spotty_pony
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Could anyone PM me the email address of the person I need to contact off the website as I am having trouble getting them as I only have a hotmail account. 
Concern for barefoot horses
- Thread starter spotty_pony
- Start date
intouch
Well-Known Member
Now that's a really good idea, you might find out her side of the story instead of making assumptions.
Natch
Well-Known Member
*dons geeky grass nerd hat and clears throat*
Yes, I think old meadow is far more suitable for horses, but that it won't revert if left alone - PRG and some of the other popular modern day species like some of the fescues are too aggressive to allow the weaker species back in.
Soil testing and improvement is great, as is selecting your mix carefully when re-seeding pasture. There are a number of "natural horsemanship" seed mixes available now, which have a much more suitable set of species and herbs for horses than the ones selected mainly for productivity and durability, in my opinion.
I hope very much that testing your grass and hay for its micronutrient profile will become much more commonplace than it is nowadays. Its fascinating *checks geek hat for fit* and is the only way you will truly balance a horse's diet - not with some off the shelf one size fits nobody "feed balancer". just my humble opinion
Natch
Well-Known Member
Could anyone PM me the email address of the person I need to contact off the website as I am having trouble getting them as I only have a hotmail account.
Done
amandap
Well-Known Member
Lol. I wish I was a 'geek'.*dons geeky grass nerd hat and clears throat*
I hope very much that testing your grass and hay for its micronutrient profile will become much more commonplace than it is nowadays. Its fascinating *checks geek hat for fit* and is the only way you will truly balance a horse's diet - not with some off the shelf one size fits nobody "feed balancer". just my humble opinion
I buy my hay from a supplier/dealer and I have to say that I wish growers would take steps too.
I have ended up soaking all hay because I can't have every delivery tested and some is ravenously eaten 'rocket fuel' and some is eaten more delicately and reluctantly. I guessed which might be the higher sugar batches. 
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Do you realise that you are in the lucky minority?
The recovery rate to full work for a horse with collateral ligament damage using medication and remedial shoeing is about 20%. I am happy for you that you are in that group.
For the rest, the recovery rate with a barefoot rehab on horses which have already fallen into the 80% failed by medication and remedial shoes is about 80%.
In other words, barefoot rehabs are producing FOUR TIMES AS MANY cures for caudal hoof lameness than the conventional treatments with horses which have already been written off by the professionals with all the training.
For the person who suggested that the insurers will drive trimmers out of business I think the reverse will happen. When they finally wake up to the fact that barefoot trimmers can resolve caudal hoof lameness without thousands of pounds worth of drugs and vet fees, the insurers will begin to refuse to pay out unless a barefoot rehab has been tried first. Insurance actuaries don't care about "conventional wisdom", they only care about reducing claim payments.
ps competitiondiva is your horse sound to gallop and jump on hard surfaces like barefoot rehabs usually are? I hear so often of "successful" treatment by shoes and drugs where the owner says "of course I'm careful on hard ground". That is not a return to full work in my book.
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
The only male fully qualified UKNHCP trimmer who covers the East Midlands area is a farrier. If it is him, report him to the WCF, not the UKNHCP, as they will have the teeth to deal with him. Bet they don't.
Victoria25
Well-Known Member
My arab hasnt ever had shoes on (she's now 11) and the blacksmith just gives them a rasp as and when required. Luckily she's good hard feet and is never sore without them - the day she becomes sore is the day she can have a big shoe wardrobe like her mummy
Unfortunately my TB has really bad feet - the people who had him before me failed to look after them as they should have done and as a result he has a vertical crack in his hind hoof. He's very flat footed and we're just having him rasped/look at ever few weeks until this grows out
(why cant people look after their horses feet? makes me so angry). He is also shoeless at the moment - my farrier had advised not to shoe him until they're back to good health then we can decide the best thing for him.
Unfortunately my TB has really bad feet - the people who had him before me failed to look after them as they should have done and as a result he has a vertical crack in his hind hoof. He's very flat footed and we're just having him rasped/look at ever few weeks until this grows out
(why cant people look after their horses feet? makes me so angry). He is also shoeless at the moment - my farrier had advised not to shoe him until they're back to good health then we can decide the best thing for him.
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
I wonder if I had posted a thread saying "OMG I saw a farrier make a horse footsore/bleed, what are we going to do about shod horses?" what the reaction would be?
Out of the 5 very well respected, qualified and in some cases remedial farriers who have either trimmed or shod my horse 4 made him lame ( the jury is out on the fifth as horse was on total box rest at the time so we didn't know if he was lame or not after).
3 have made my horse bleed during trims and if challenged would say while this was unfortunate, such radical surgery was essential in that case and had to be made worse before it could be made better.
And I am horse owner who takes an interest, researches, makes a point of being there when my horse was shod now trimmed, asks about what I can do re nutrition and ask about what they are doing and why and their opinion on how my horse is doing. I'm met with blank indifference.
There's alot of people out there who leave it to the yard manager to deal with a farrier.
You could report them but if you even try to change farriers without your original farrier's 'permission' you will get blacklisted and no farrier in the area will touch your horse, god knows how they'd react if you reported him.
In one case I used moving yards as an excuse for changing farriers, and original farrier threatened new farrier for taking one of his horses.
Funny, I though it was MY horse.
If you are referring to the study I think you are, collateral ligament damage had an 11% recovery rate, At first glance it looks like 17% but then you notice that they split collateral ligament damage into 2 sections, mild and moderate. In the mild section none of the horse recovered and if you average them out taking into account the number of horse in each section then you get 11%.
DDFT injuries were 22%.
Sorry to be pedantic.
Just makes it even more amazing if someone is one of the lucky ones whose horse came back into full work
Out of the 5 very well respected, qualified and in some cases remedial farriers who have either trimmed or shod my horse 4 made him lame ( the jury is out on the fifth as horse was on total box rest at the time so we didn't know if he was lame or not after).
3 have made my horse bleed during trims and if challenged would say while this was unfortunate, such radical surgery was essential in that case and had to be made worse before it could be made better.
And I am horse owner who takes an interest, researches, makes a point of being there when my horse was shod now trimmed, asks about what I can do re nutrition and ask about what they are doing and why and their opinion on how my horse is doing. I'm met with blank indifference.
There's alot of people out there who leave it to the yard manager to deal with a farrier.
You could report them but if you even try to change farriers without your original farrier's 'permission' you will get blacklisted and no farrier in the area will touch your horse, god knows how they'd react if you reported him.
In one case I used moving yards as an excuse for changing farriers, and original farrier threatened new farrier for taking one of his horses.
Funny, I though it was MY horse.
If you are referring to the study I think you are, collateral ligament damage had an 11% recovery rate, At first glance it looks like 17% but then you notice that they split collateral ligament damage into 2 sections, mild and moderate. In the mild section none of the horse recovered and if you average them out taking into account the number of horse in each section then you get 11%.
DDFT injuries were 22%.
Sorry to be pedantic.
Just makes it even more amazing if someone is one of the lucky ones whose horse came back into full work
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cptrayes
Well-Known Member
SJS how much damage do you think they will be doing? I think you may be overestimating how much damage a horse feeling footie, even very footie, on stones will do to itself.
It's removing its feet quickly from the stones so as NOT to damage them. It might get a few little bruises. It could even abscess if they are unlucky. But none of that causes serious damage, except in a very, very, very tiny proportion of abscesses. As for the soreness, while I do NOT advocate making a horse sore, soreness results in inflammation and inflammation results in a a quicker and stronger growth of sole callous due to the increased blood supply. It's like a novice builder getting blisters and then callouses on his hands. In fact we deliberately cause this inflammation to benefit from this effect by using irritants on splints and cornucrescine on coronet bands. Unless someone does something else stupid, the horse will right itself in days. If it doesn't, then there is more wrong with it than the trim and the likelihood is that will be diet.
How long have these horses been without shoes? If it is recent, then what is so wrong with booting up to get it to the field? If it is not recent, this is, plain and simple, wrong, and someone needs to work out what is wrong with the way these horses are kept or fed that is preventing them from building a decent sole callous to walk on.
Meanwhile getting agitated about two trims (possibly done by a farrier trimmer anyway) is not helping anyone.
ps Criso feel free, pedantic is fine by me when figures like that are involved
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brucea
Well-Known Member
If you believe that a horse's welfare has been compromised, then you should contact the relevant organisation - in this case the WCF, but there is no harm in dropping a line to Nic Barker or Sarah Braithwaite of UKNHCP as well and expressing your informed concerns.
I note the original post has spawed lots of interesting subjects but where I see a post with the line below....I am inclined to think that it's more pot stirring than first hand experience. Did you see the hoof bleeding? Did you see the horse? Sounds like a general hearsay rather than ian informed specific complaint. Please correct me with an informed post and perhaps pictures if I'm wrong, as I often am.
By way of perspective, I have seen horses bleed very slightly after trimming, and one of them was mine. I had absolutely no problem with the trimming, it was conservative with a big C.
I asked Professor Bob Bowker when he was in Aberdeen why this was the case and he explained that often there is an errant capilary that just does not get closed off as the sole grows down and leaves an exit whern the hardened surface material is taken off - it will spot blood until the pressure of the horse's weight causes it to close off cleanly. He said it was nothing to worry about, and thought that it would be more likely to be seen in a laminitic hoof.
Been a cracking day up here - we have hacked 2 of my barefoot horses out for 6 hours over some fairly rough tracks at walk, trot, canter and "oh crap, please slow down" paces - I'm pretty sure that I've not wrecked their feet They look pretty much as they did when I set out!
I note the original post has spawed lots of interesting subjects but where I see a post with the line below....I am inclined to think that it's more pot stirring than first hand experience. Did you see the hoof bleeding? Did you see the horse? Sounds like a general hearsay rather than ian informed specific complaint. Please correct me with an informed post and perhaps pictures if I'm wrong, as I often am.
By way of perspective, I have seen horses bleed very slightly after trimming, and one of them was mine. I had absolutely no problem with the trimming, it was conservative with a big C.
I asked Professor Bob Bowker when he was in Aberdeen why this was the case and he explained that often there is an errant capilary that just does not get closed off as the sole grows down and leaves an exit whern the hardened surface material is taken off - it will spot blood until the pressure of the horse's weight causes it to close off cleanly. He said it was nothing to worry about, and thought that it would be more likely to be seen in a laminitic hoof.
Been a cracking day up here - we have hacked 2 of my barefoot horses out for 6 hours over some fairly rough tracks at walk, trot, canter and "oh crap, please slow down" paces - I'm pretty sure that I've not wrecked their feet
They look pretty much as they did when I set out!spotty_pony
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cptrayes - These horses have been lane for several months which IMO is not acceptable. Also trimming the hoof off too much as you say and 'encouraging them to be sore' is cruel IMO. Even if this trimmer is a farrier, he is trimming in the barefoot way, not as normal trimmers trim. If abcesses are 'in the minority' why has one of the horses has several?!
brucea
Well-Known Member
And what, exactly is "trimnming in the barefoot way"? What is "trimming in the normal way"?
A trim should be correct for the horse, there is no "way" as such. What nonsense.
spotty_pony
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Barefoot way = trimming too much off. Normal way = a general tidy up
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
PSML, is that what I was meant to do?
trina1982
Well-Known Member
Please spend a little time looking at the rockley farm blog. Specifically look for 'celery'.
x
amandap
Well-Known Member
Seconded!
amandap
Well-Known Member
That's new to me. Thanks. I don't see that many trims other than my own horses and have never seen a hoof bleed even a tiny bit. I still don't expect to see bleeding though. lol I have seen old blood in the horn exposed with rasping but of course (as you know) that isn't fresh blood or 'bleeding'.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
I've seen hundreds of horses trimmed by a farrier, and never seen anything untoward except when he has been "digging" in to release an abscess, I don't understand why any trimmer would need to cut out hoof material to make a horse bleed or lame.
amandap
Well-Known Member
I don't think any Trimmer or Farrier should make a horse bleed or be more lame than it might have been previously. Cutting into the hoof is a Veterinary procedure.
I too am wondering what the whole story is.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
IMO this is not acceptable either. What on earth do you think we are - little red men with horns in our hair and forked tails?
Trimming in a barefoot way? A barefoot way is "do no harm". This was NOT a barefoot way, but since it seems that the man, although a member of UKNHCP, may be a farrier anyway, what on earth do you expect a mere mortal trimmer to say to him? There is no evidence that he trimmed them to make them sore deliberately and you should be VERY careful what you post. I pointed out that soreness does not do as much harm as you are stating, not that it is correct to cause soreness. Please do not extrapolate that to trimmers deliberately causing soreness to speed up sole callous, because the ones affiliated organisations are trained NOT to do so.
The more you write the more it is clear that you simply do not know about proper barefoot. I am sorry that you have seen what you think is a poor trimmer. If you want to see a good trim and hardworking sound horses I'd be happy to show you mine and explain how I keep them and why any time that you are in my area (manchester).
spotty_pony
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You are right in thinking that I do not know much about barefoot trimming. Although, it is obvious there must be a difference between a barefoot trimmer and a farrier who trims, otherwise there would be no need to call them a 'barefoot trimmer'. I am not saying that horses cannot manage well without shoes as I know many that do! I just think that drawing blood is completely unacceptable.
brucea
Well-Known Member
Yep - I've seen it a few times - that's why I asked Bob about it. It's like a pinprick amount, but it's surprising it is there at all given the thickness of the sole.
Neither did I 6-7 years ago. I thought shoeing was the only way, despite having ridden barefoot ponies that were performing far better than my own horses.
But it was obvious that shoeing was not working for mine and I needed to go somewhere. It's been a revelation and those of us who have gone down that route have a tendency to become a bit hoof-nerdy.You should get a copy of "Feet First" and have a read. And have a look on the Rockley Farm blog.
Tinypony
Well-Known Member
Some pictures of the Barefoot Brigade.
Seriously SJS, people have taken a lot of time over patiently typing reams to explain to you how barefoot trimming should work. So if you don't know much about it, why don't you follow up some of the information you've been given and find out? I always think that knowledge is power, and it really helps to understand things if we want to criticise.
People have also calmly explained that they agree with you, there shouldn't be blood and the horses shouldn't be lamed. So why do you keep repeating yourself? What are you doing about these horses? At least report them to the RSPCA, I'm sure they would be very interested as they led the prosecutions against the Strasser trimmers. We would all be behind you, but can't do anything as we are not there to witness as you are.
Drawing blood is completely unacceptable - we agree OK? Leaving horses lame is unacceptable too. Now, do something about it?
competitiondiva
Well-Known Member
Sorry to add fuel to the fire here!! OP you say these horses have been lame for months, are you sure it is the farriery/trimming causing the lameness (aside from the bleeding/blood aspect (which I myself have never seen except when a vet was digging for an abscess, and that's been over a fair few years!)), are the ponies laminitic, got ligament damage etc, do you know if a vet has seen them??? If they have been lame constantly (and not just for a day after a trim) for months on end, then I would hope a vet has seen them? If not you might want to raise this with the owners/YO too, just my thoughts?????
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
SJS how many times do you want us to agree with you that drawing blood is unacceptable? It was unacceptable all three times that three different qualified farriers did it to horses of mine. It is unacceptable for a trimmer to do it. You are coming across as a little simple-minded to keep repeating what you have now said so many times.
The difference between a barefoot trimmer and a farrier who does a good barefoot trim is that the farrier is a farrier and the trimmer is not.
It's as simple as that. One is qualified and legally entitled to shoe and the other is not. BOTH can be good trimmers and bad trimmers.
Now, if you want to know about good trimming for hard work without shoes, and the other 90% that goes into managing a horse for hard work without shoes, because the trim is only a small part, please look at some of the information that you have been pointed to.
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amandap
Well-Known Member
Speak for yourself.
Some pictures of the Barefoot Brigade.
I typed something similar then didn't press submit.
Pale Rider
Well-Known Member
This post to me sums up the whole problem here of people posting things which are totally wrong, perhaps even the reverse of what actually is going on.
If the situation is as SJS suggests then the problem here is far more than an unskilled trimmer, a look at the whole management of these horses is probably what is really required.
spookypony
Well-Known Member
Some pictures of the Barefoot Brigade.
I thought we had been upgraded from a mere "Brigade" to a "Sinister Cult"?? touchstone
Well-Known Member
My experience is the complete opposite actually, barring one trimming method that I wouldn't go near anyway. Barefoot trimming in my horse's case involves a rub round with a rasp now and again, the horse maintains her hoof very well her self. My old farrier would have taken some sole with a trim.
Do look at Rockley's website and see just how little triming they actually need to do at times.