Concern over livery....

We don't know whether pony is thin, or underweight, only OP can judge that. A 4kg haynet doesn't look much at all, I wouldn't be surprised if one of your slices was coming in at around that. I've got a pony that I can't get weight off, muzzled 23 hours a day or 24 if he doesn't want to come in from the field, and weight stays stationary (I don't have a bare paddock option at my yard, and moving yards would be very difficult owing to lack of good yards in the area). He was on boxrest for a couple of weeks a while ago and was on 1.5% bodyweight split into 2 nets, each net actually 5 nets inside each other so he could literally get a blade out at a time - he put weight on during the two weeks. It really is hard when they live on air. I've got other good doers that can be managed with feed restriction and exercise, but this one is to be seen to be believed, and it is very depressing to have other people voicing opinions about it when they don't know the facts!
 
My NF has never had laminitis and I never want him too either hence feeding him 1.5% of his body weight where possible.
He gets 2kg of soaked hay a day and is turned out either on 1/2 acre which is grazed right down with a friend or in the ungrazed back section for 4 hours with a muzzle in the afternoons... he also gets a token feed with supplements and is still not below a 3 condition score even in moderate work 4/5 days a week - I cannot win!

(One section/biscuit of our hay varies from 1.8kg to 3.5kg!! hence the reason I use some hanging scales)
 
It's a really hard call for you as YO. I have a 10hh falabella x that has had laminitis about 4 or 5 times in his life. He is 19 yrs old now.
He is turned out on a scratch patch possibly a fifth of an acre - I feed him a slice of hay at each end of the day and he is grazed in hand say 3 times a week for 10 or 15 minutes. He also gets a daily morning feed of a handful of grass nuts, a handful of wheat bran and a big handful of Happy Hoof - I also add a charcoal supplement and Rosehip supplement. He is the perfect weight - no fat neck and he always has something to chomp on. He poos around 16 a day which is average.
It sounds to me that they are starving this pony. People sadly get very scared about laminitis and go to the opposite extreme, which is indeed quite cruel. Likely unintentional, but they should read up on the topic and understand what the experts recommend. The neck should say it all not the stomach as the neck is the last place a pony stores fat and will show clearly when heading to a laminitic phase.

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Also, if I was said livery, regardless of the rights or wrongs of the situation, I'd be extremely unhappy that my pony and care was being discussed by YO on the internet.
 
Bethie said:
Also, if I was said livery, regardless of the rights or wrongs of the situation, I'd be extremely unhappy that my pony and care was being discussed by YO on the internet.
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To be fair to YO she has not identified the livery to my knowledge - so no reason for anyone to be upset, pony in question is a 'mystery pony'. Too many YOs do not care and this one does and is seeking some advice, which imo is good and caring.
 
YasandCrystal said:
To be fair to YO she has not identified the livery to my knowledge - so no reason for anyone to be upset, pony in question is a 'mystery pony'. Too many YOs do not care and this one does and is seeking some advice, which imo is good and caring.
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I agree with this entirely - OP has not in any way identified the pony under discussion or the owners. If I ever had to use a livery yard (shudder!) I would be delighted if YO was as caring and diligent as this YO appears to be!
 
Bethie said:
Also, if I was said livery, regardless of the rights or wrongs of the situation, I'd be extremely unhappy that my pony and care was being discussed by YO on the internet.
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.. well you that is as maybe, but would you prefer that the YO did nothing, she or he is looking for ideas.
As an impartial bystander I would be extremely unhappy if the YO put the feelings of the horse owner over the welfare of the horse.
The YO has already approached the horse owner and is still not happy, no compromise has been reached. To me the YO is the concerned party, and I assume has more experience than the horse owner.
If the horse is losing weight, there is a problem.
 
Sidney said:
Sorry I am a bit confused - why would I be liable for prosecution!?

In my diy contract it clearly states that the 'clients' are responsible for the welfare of their own horse - these concerns are only being voiced as I actually care about the horses on my yard, rather than seeing them just as a money making scheme.

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Legally you are responsible for the horses in your care, regardless of any bits of paper you have asked them to sign.
It is like when you go in to a shop and they say "Sale"...... sold as seen, this is not so, they have to comply with the law of the country, they can't opt out.
I am surprised that as a yard owner you are not aware of the implications, I have sent you a pm reminding you of your responsibilities....
If for example, I., as a livery stop paying you, and do not come up to my horse, and do not provide food or water, it is your legal reponsibility to take over. That is your "duty of care"
I am not being nasty, I am just advising you of a Yard Owners responsibilities as per the law in the UK
 
Sidney said:
Thanks Lochpearl and do not worry, I wouldn't feed it without their permission!!!

The paddock is mainly bare earth, but with some green (but mainly weeds!) in patches.

The hay given is 1 slice from a small bale. The horse weighs 410kg on the weigh tape (owner weighed him last week), so if the 1% rule is applied that would mean it needs 4 kg to maintain a safe forage level if prone to laminitus? I personally doubt that a slice of hay and 1/2 scoop chaff adds up to this, but as somone else rightly said, if the horse has been managed like this for the last 6 yrs, the formula is obvioulsy working!

The concerns I have are more for his internal workings and the psychological stress of not being able to forage, but suppose these are outweighed by the risks from laminitus....

Thanks for everyones input and will just observe how he goes through the rest of the summer - it is a learning curve for me too as never had to deal with a laminitus prone horse so appreciate I may being over precious too!
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I totally disagree with you now, are you going to wait till it is a bag of bones before you do anything even though your gut feeling is that it is not getting enough food and it is losing weight.?
The Weight Tape as provided by feed companies is not accurate, it is a guide for average ponies, and you can ask the owner use a more scientific calculation.
THE main thing you need to know is, is the horse losing weight or is it gaining weight, a tape will tell you this, but will not tell you the weight.
ONE PERCENT of body weight IS A STARVATION DIET.
NO HORSE SHOULD BE FED ONE PERCENT OF ITS WEIGHT.
IF THE HORSE HAS BEEN FED BY ITS OWNERS FOR SIX YEARS ITS WEIGHT SHOULD BE STABLE THAT IS TO SAY IT SHOULD NOT BE LOSING WEIGHT.
I have fully aired my views, and that is all I am going to say.
 
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My YO kicked two liveries off the yard for not feeding their ponies enough and depriving them of reasonable grazing. If the management of this horse concerns you, ask the owner to leave. It may just be a wake up call.
 
Thank you all for your helpful suggestions. Re the 'rib' issue I would condition score him at 2 as his ribs are visible but not prominent.

Just to let you know I have just had another conversation with the horses owner tonight who has agreed to weigh taping the horse on a weekly basis, and if his weight drops any more, will increase his hay allowance. They have also agreed to hand grazing him on the days he has been excercised, so see this as a positive out come.

Bethie - I do see your point and did not think of that before posting, so taken what you have said on board...

To Mrsd123 - please do not keep bombarding me with pm's. As with your posts, I find your tone both patronising and threatening - if I receive any more they will be deleted without reading so please do not continue to waste your time. I am well aware of the duty of care I have to the horses on my yard, but having raised my concerns with the owner on several occasions now, cannot see how I am neglecting this - surely the very fact that I have posted my concerns on the forum supports this.

grumpyoldmare - you are welcome on my yard anytime!
 
SusieT said:
MrsD123-we are yet to find out if the horse even has ribs showing...
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I have no objections to ribs showing, what I am concerned about is its weight loss and the fact it is being starved, if we are to believe all we are told.
The owners have had the horse for six years, so they should know how to feed and exercise it to maintain its ideal weight.
The yard owner says it is losing weight but is prepared to wait for months, to see what happens.
The yard owner has been a yard owner for three years but does not know the law of the UK regarding duty of care.
............I remember someone telling me about a new system they had ......they were teaching their cob to live on sunshine and fresh air, it was doing great, and feed bills were minimal, unfortunately, just before they were going to publish the diet, the horse took a turn for the worse and died, it was all going so well ..........
 
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I give up, I sent pms because I did not want to embarrass you, that is to say, I pointed out your responsibilities under the UK law, and also the fact that you had the ultimate sanction, ie ask the owner to remove the horse.
I also suggested you brought in an independent assessor, but that was not what you wanted to hear either.
If you feel I have threatened you please send the pm to the fat controller.
 
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Sidney said:
Sorry I am a bit confused - why would I be liable for prosecution!?

In my diy contract it clearly states that the 'clients' are responsible for the welfare of their own horse -
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Because regardless of what's in your contract about the clients being responsible you also have a duty of care to the animals on your land and actually and ultimately in your care.
 
Sidney said:
The paddock is mainly bare earth, but with some green (but mainly weeds!) in patches.

The hay given is 1 slice from a small bale. The horse weighs 410kg on the weigh tape (owner weighed him last week), so if the 1% rule is applied that would mean it needs 4 kg to maintain a safe forage level if prone to laminitus? I personally doubt that a slice of hay and 1/2 scoop chaff adds up to this, but as somone else rightly said, if the horse has been managed like this for the last 6 yrs, the formula is obvioulsy working!
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The trouble is that you need to include any grass (or other vegetation) eaten in the amount of forage and that is difficult to gauge. Even if there is quite a bit of bare earth, a one acre paddock will still supply a significant amount of grass at this time of year, even if it looks bare because it is nibbled right down. I have a 14.3 native type on a similar paddock and it is amazing how much nutrition they can get out of what looks to be sparse grazing.

I'd keep an eye on how much dung the horse is producing and monitor its condition, before speaking to the owners.
 
hi, I have 4 native ponies. One is a shetland x who has had laminitus once since we bought her 7 years ago. Scared me to death and has taken years to get her management just right year round. All the ponies look well and are on restricted grass. The 2 smaller ones spend the night on the bare patch with a haynet each of good clean barley straw. All the ponies have access to straw during the day as I hate to see them so hungry . The new Section A has taken a little while to settle and now tucks in to her straw with relish and her weight is coming down to a better level .
Good luck with the livery, I never knew how hard it would be to manage weight with a lami prone pony until I had one but I know she isnt starving and unhappy because she can always go and munch on the straw.
 
It's a very difficult balance, we have 3 that are lami prone and they all have different management routines.
 
MrsD123 said:
NO HORSE SHOULD BE FED ONE PERCENT OF ITS WEIGHT.
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I think MrsD is in general absolutely barking, but that she does have a point here. I refrained from saying it earlier but think its important enough to say that I don't think that less than 2% of body weight is an acceptable level of forage. I appreciate there are several people on here who do feed this, some with vet's recommendations, but I really do strongly feel that the horse will neither be getting the nutrition he needs, nor will his digestive system be functioning properly. It goes against the way their behaviour and digestive systems have evolved.

If you don't want to add extra calories into your horses diet, feed soaked hay, or straw. But feed something :(
 
'Susceptible ponies grazing what appears to be neglected, even horse-sick permanent pastures can, in the right environmental conditions, crop sufficient 'new' herbage to set up an overloading of the gut with soluble sugars in this grass'. (Stewart Hastie, MRCVS. 2001;544)

You say you've not experienced laminitis. You are very fortunate, I've seen two in the last month. Neither belonged to first time/one horse owners. Sometimes you have to trust people to know what they're doing.
 
TGM said:
The trouble is that you need to include any grass (or other vegetation) eaten in the amount of forage and that is difficult to gauge. Even if there is quite a bit of bare earth, a one acre paddock will still supply a significant amount of grass at this time of year, even if it looks bare because it is nibbled right down. I have a 14.3 native type on a similar paddock and it is amazing how much nutrition they can get out of what looks to be sparse grazing.

I'd keep an eye on how much dung the horse is producing and monitor its condition, before speaking to the owners.
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This is exactly the suggestion I was going to make too
 
As an afterthought, another thing to take into account is how the horse is spending its time in the paddock. If the horse spends most of its time nibbling the sparse grazing then there is probably more grass than it appears to the observer and the horse will be getting a pretty continuous supply of fibre in its stomach. If the horse spends long periods of time standing about without eating then I would be more concerned.
 
Naturally said:
I think MrsD is in general absolutely barking, but that she does have a point here. I refrained from saying it earlier but think its important enough to say that I don't think that less than 2% of body weight is an acceptable level of forage. I appreciate there are several people on here who do feed this, some with vet's recommendations, but I really do strongly feel that the horse will neither be getting the nutrition he needs, nor will his digestive system be functioning properly. It goes against the way their behaviour and digestive systems have evolved.

If you don't want to add extra calories into your horses diet, feed soaked hay, or straw. But feed something :(
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I'm sure that the most recent research says that actually you CAN feed one percent of bodyweight safely without digestive upsets etc and it is now being recommend for overweight ponies as some do not drop weight even at 1.5% being fed. 2% should be fed to maintain current condition rather than losing any weight.

I know that mine would do very well on an acre of bare grazing (and probably get laminitis!) I currently graze a track around the outside of a paddock which is around an acre so mine has much less grass the the horse in question. I do feed 1.5% of forage.

If the paddock is totally bare then perhaps having a 'rule' that horses are fed one percent of their bodyweight in forage a day if grazing is restricted might help, then at least you know the horse in question is getting the basics.
 
TGM said:
As an afterthought, another thing to take into account is how the horse is spending its time in the paddock. If the horse spends most of its time nibbling the sparse grazing then there is probably more grass than it appears to the observer and the horse will be getting a pretty continuous supply of fibre in its stomach. If the horse spends long periods of time standing about without eating then I would be more concerned.
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Also worth repeating is the excellent point you made about gut function as to how much is coming out the other end!
 
I completely understand what they're trying to do but if he doesn't currently have laminitus then I think they can definitely give him more hay. Why don't you suggest that they feed lots of soaked hay? It has very little nutritional value but it gives him something to do (eat!) and will keep him happier.
 
touchstone said:
I'm sure that the most recent research says that actually you CAN feed one percent of bodyweight safely without digestive upsets etc and it is now being recommend for overweight ponies as some do not drop weight even at 1.5% being fed. 2% should be fed to maintain current condition rather than losing any weight.

I know that mine would do very well on an acre of bare grazing (and probably get laminitis!) I currently graze a track around the outside of a paddock which is around an acre so mine has much less grass the the horse in question. I do feed 1.5% of forage.

If the paddock is totally bare then perhaps having a 'rule' that horses are fed one percent of their bodyweight in forage a day if grazing is restricted might help, then at least you know the horse in question is getting the basics.
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That's interesting, thanks for that :) I would argue of course that diet AND exercise are important for dropping weight, and would still personally not go much below 2%, for behaviour, and satiety levels - I'd just switch them to hay mixed with straw, or soaked hay. And of course, applying it to the OP, this horse is at a BCS of 2, so no need for that to lose weight. :)

Your horse is getting a total of 2% or so, I would imagine, with the grass combined with forage :)


Surely one of the problems with feeding a low % of forage is that the horse may be eating more like a meal feeder than a trickle feeder, and I would have thought that that would increase the likelihood of ulcers and undesireable behaviour etc (in fact I'm sure I've seen research which finds this, and on racehorses fed low levels of hay proving more likely to exhibit stereotypical behaviour).

Interesting discussion - and *groah* food for thought :D
 
I've manged to find the link about 1% being fed,:) http://www.equinescienceupdate.co.uk/wlrhd.htm

Naturally you are right in that I probably do feed nearer to 2% bodyweight, although the track is mostly dirt. In fact she has put a bit of weight on lately so I may have to restrict intake a bit more (currently off work with lameness.)

For a horse with a lower bodyscore condition I'd personally want to feed nearer the 2% and in an ideal world I'd like to allow unrestricted access to as much forage as they'd like, but sadly with some prone to easy weight gain or other health issues it isn't always possible.
I know after looking after poor/average doers it was a real shock to the system to find out just how little a native needs, but it is a balancing act making sure that the horses have sufficient to occupy/prevent boredom/illness and not enough to promote weight gain.

One solution for the op might be to have a visit from a nutritionist who will be able to advise, I think some companies do free visits for over ten or so horses and will be able to give professional advice for the laminitics owner and it give the yo some back up if the pony needs more. They will probably promote their products though.
 
Difficult one as they do tend to live very well off nothing at all! My Welsh D is on just under one acre of bare grazing that was eaten right down all winter - so he nibbles stuff as it grows through but acts as though he is starved to death - leaning over the electric fence to nibble the ditch areas.
He is in at night on a strict percentage of his body weight, which equates to 4kg hay and 500g dengie healthy hooves. He could easily and happily eat double this ration and I know he goes for periods with nothing to eat at all....BUT....he maintains his weight perfectly and is worked 6 days a week. If anything, he could loose a bit more weight. It is difficult and all you can do is suggest and monitor the situation on a weekly basis.
 
As an owner of 2 mares who live on 'fresh air' I can understand what your liveries are trying to do OP, however, I think they shold do some more research into the newer thinking regarding Lami prone horses.
My little mare foaled 3 weeks ago, and is on poorish grass (about 3/4 of an acre) all the time alongside 250g Top Spec Anti Lam, a handful of HiFi lite and a slice of well soaked hay. if she didnt have the foal on her, she would be on a quarter of the grazing but would have 3 or 4 slices of well soaked hay plus her bucket as she was before the foal was born due to showing slight lami when on a different (stud) balancer.
My big girl, who has never had/shown signs of lami, but was chronically obese when I bought her, has half a slice of soaked hay double netted at night - more so that she isnt left out when the mare and foal have theirs! - plus 250g of AntiLam and a handful of HiFi Lite. She is on 1/2 an acre of nothing during the day and is let down into the better 3/4 acre paddock at night, although that is pretty bald too. When the vet wanted her on a 1% diet (she weighed 585kg at the time) she had 2 scoops of HiFi lite split into 2 feeds, and 3 or 4 (depending on weight of them) soaked for 24hrs.

I like the idea of getting a nutritionist visiting your yard, thats an excellent idea! x
 
I'm a DIY YO plus have had a lammi in the past.

I think OP is right to be concerned, as if anyone DOES feel the horse is looking sufficient poor to ring the RSPCA or someone, then the YO is deemed responsible for the horses in their care.

So personally, I'd be inclined to take the stance of saying to the livery: look, concern has been expressed re. your horse looking a bit poor, and I'd like your vet to visit and discuss/check the condition of the animal and establish the feeding/management regime is sufficient for its needs and as YO be there with the owner & vet when he/she visits.

That way, you're covering yourself if there IS any comeback from anywhere; plus if there is a genuine welfare issue the vet will say.

I personnally would insist on this course of action straightaway; if the livery refuses to get the vet in then tell her to go up the road.

We had a similar situation here many years ago now; out of the goodness of my heart I took two oldies for a friend who really had gone a bit past it and yet were perfectly OK, and we had the RSPCA visit coz someone had snitched that we had two horses here in bad condition.

So - cover yourself. Insist that the owner calls the vet & be there to discuss when they visit.
 
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