Condition versus weight

[RachelB]

My horse has always been difficult to feed in winter. She is easy in summer because she only has to look at grass to put weight on, so she is kept as if she were laminitic (ad-lib soaked hay and only tiny amounts of grass strip-grazed). In winter it's a different story.
She still has a big belly at the moment, so my weight tape says she is roughly 600kg (she's a 15.3hh middleweight IDx and was about 560kg when in full work before being injured). She has always always had a big gut and I think that's just the way she's built, but it does make her look fat/pregnant. For that reason she is fed about 2/3rds of a bale of hay per day (out 24/7 unless really awful weather, grazing is typical poor winter stuff) and gets a cup (dry) of A&P Fast Fibre and half a scoop of HiFi Lite once a day. She is on a GP supplement.
She gets hacked (can't school or lunge because of her old tendon injury) about four times a week, for 45-90 minutes, mostly in walk but we are building up her trot and she currently does two or three stretches of about a minute trotting. All trotting is done in an outline and I'd say also about 80-90% of the walking is too. She comes home sweaty (unclipped).
Since Christmas she has started losing condition over her quarters and neck. She is quite front-heavy and has a disproportionately large head, so her skinny backside and weedy neck make her look very ugly

She always feels fit enough to be doing her work, but she doesn't look fit at all!
So basically my issue is whether her lost condition over her quarters and neck is due to her workload (though she looked 10 times better last summer and she wasn't in work at all) or due to a feeding problem. If she didn't have her big belly I'd be tempted to put her on Alfa Lite but I'm worried this will make her balloon! I don't have the time/light to be riding her before or after work (I work 8am-6pm four days a week, my mum rides her once a week when I'm at work) and because she is still on rehab for her tendon I can't increase her workload any quicker. I am thoroughly confused as to what to do for the best!
Any suggestions/thoughts/comments much appreciated, and I will try to get a few photos of her soon

 

[Shilasdair]

I would like to help, but am unclear what you mean by 'she is losing condition over her quarters and neck'? Do you mean she is losing muscle?
When horses go from large soft condition, to doing more work, often they lose the bulk and develop more defined muscles instead...
As you are doing hacking work though, perhaps she isn't developing much muscle tone on the sides of her neck, as she won't be bending or flexing? And if she has a tendency to go on her forehand (don't they all!) she may be building shoulder muscle instead of quarter muscle?
I don't know - tell me more?
S

 

[teddyt]

How old is she? Older horses tend to lose muscle tone and 'drop' so their bellies look big. You really need to feel for condition, not just look. How easily can you feel her ribs? Has she had a foal before? again, belly can drop. Is worming up to date? That can cause pot belly. What im getting at is does she have a big belly or is she fat?
Your diet doesnt have much protein, which is needed for muscle development. Alfalfa is good source of protein and higher in energy for weight gain. Need to assess whether its muscle, fat or both that you want before planning her diet.

 

[RachelB]

Shils - what I mean is, her quarters used to be round and they are becoming more angular... the sides of her quarters (above stifle) and just in front of her hip bones are starting to look like they've been sucked in, and her quarters generally look half the size they should be. Obviously before they were fat but now they aren't fat but aren't muscly either! With the amount of long slow hill work I've been doing (we have a few nice hills in the area and I've been riding her since October) I would have thought she would have nice round muscly quarters by now. Her neck is starting to get thin, it's lacking muscle development and it almost looks as if it would struggle to lift her head

She definitely is very very heavy on the forehand (built downhill, big shoulders and weak quarters, big heavy head etc.) but we do do a fair amount of trotting along straight stretches flexing from side to side, especially as this loosens her grip on the left side of the bit!!
teddyt - she is 13 this year. She has had at least one foal, if not many (I bought her as a 10yo, and she is the kindest sweetest mare I have ever met so I would not be surprised if she had been bred from a lot in her younger years). I can feel and almost see her ribs, even through her thick winter coat. Worming is up to date, she was counted as nil six months ago and has since had one dose of Pramox and one of Equest. I am convinced she just has a big belly and is not actually fat. When I bought her she was skinny - almost a normal-sized belly, but looked ribby and weak and under-developed. I fed her up a bit for a few months and she has had a big gut ever since! Last winter when she was off work she was HUGELY overweight (long story) and it's only started coming off since I've been working her (August onwards).
What I'm trying to communicate is that she has a big belly but I don't think she's fat - I think it's hiding the fact that she isn't in the condition I'd like her in. If you look at the rest of her I think she's a 2.5 condition score-wise, but her belly is huge and is definitely a 5 (I'm taking that off the Dengie website). I definitely don't want fat, but I don't think we're getting any muscle building up either. I'm not sure whether to just carry on building her workload up and hope she builds up the muscle over her neck and quarters (though after two months of walking only and then a month starting to build up the trotting, I would have thought she'd look more muscled by now) or whether what I am feeding her is preventing the build-up of muscle. I don't want to start feeding her anything more conditioning in case it puts fat on her though, as it was an awful struggle to get the fat off her last year and I would prefer to be going into summer with less fat than I had to work with last year!

 

[Chumsmum]

I struggle too to 'assess' the condition of my pony sometimes, he piles weight on in the summer if I don't strip graze but looked quite poor on his neck and bum this Autumn but still had a big belly making him look like two different horses depending on how you looked at him. He was on a scoop of Happy Hoof per day and just being bought back in to work after treatment for Bone Spavin.

It was pointed out to me that his belly wasn't that big but the lack of muscle/topline made it look worse. Also he is 17yo and quite sway backed anyway.

When I rang the feed help lines they explained that he needed protein to help build up those muscles. He is now on Alfa A Oil with Lo Cal Balancer and looks a lot better and his body has 'evened out' though his topline/muscle is still work in progress. He lives out 24/7 with plenty of hay/haylege. ATM he is hacked at least twice per week and we have a lesson once a week - he could do with more but I work full time - roll on Spring..

However, the spring grass is not that far away and I will have to keep an eye on him and adjust his feed accordingly.

Sorry, not much help but do sympathise.

 

[RachelB]

Ok this were taken today. I'm afraid it doesn't really illustrate too well what I am actually seeing, especially with her neck! But here goes...
Saggy belly and poor quarters:

Maybe I'm just being impatient wanting her to muscle up quicker? Though it has been four months...

What teddyt said about protein would make sense, although what do I feed her that gives her the extra protein without letting her put on the extra weight? I wouldn't mind some extra energy though (am thinking of trying her on Propell!)
Or am I just trying to turn her into something she isn't?

 

[RachelB]

[ QUOTE ]
I struggle too to 'assess' the condition of my pony sometimes, he piles weight on in the summer if I don't strip graze but looked quite poor on his neck and bum this Autumn but still had a big belly making him look like two different horses depending on how you looked at him. He was on a scoop of Happy Hoof per day and just being bought back in to work after treatment for Bone Spavin.

It was pointed out to me that his belly wasn't that big but the lack of muscle/topline made it look worse. Also he is 17yo and quite sway backed anyway.

When I rang the feed help lines they explained that he needed protein to help build up those muscles. He is now on Alfa A Oil with Lo Cal Balancer and looks a lot better and his body has 'evened out' though his topline/muscle is still work in progress. He lives out 24/7 with plenty of hay/haylege. ATM he is hacked at least twice per week and we have a lesson once a week - he could do with more but I work full time - roll on Spring..

However, the spring grass is not that far away and I will have to keep an eye on him and adjust his feed accordingly.

Sorry, not much help but do sympathise.

[/ QUOTE ]
chumsmum that is a LOT of help, thank you!

I would love to be brave enough to put her on Alfa A and a balancer and see what happens, but I had SO much of a struggle getting the weight off her last year that I am too scared to do it really!

What I am feeding her now doesn't really seem to be doing the trick though so something has to change.

 

[RachelB]

More photos!
This is what I want her belly to return to, but not the rest of her - ribby, weedy neck and poor quarters (taken June 2006 when I had owned her for 10 days):

Although the belly has started to hang a little, this is MUCH more to my liking with the quarters and neck (taken August 2006, after two months of being in full work hacking, schooling and jumping six days a week):

Am I striving for the impossible?

 

[Chumsmum]

I know what you mean about being afraid to change or up their feed when you have struggled to keep weight off before - Chum is loving the extra food though

I'm forever asking more experienced friends/instructor/vet their opinion on his condition.

And even now when I think I've got him sussed he put weight on over Xmas when he had colic and wasn't exercised and was kept in a night but he is being ridden and out 24/7 again now so looking better already.

As I said before, Chum's topline/muscle is a long time coming but I'm hoping I'll see more improvement when I can ride in the evenings.

 

[RachelB]

Thanks, it's nice to hear from someone going through similar issues!

My very un-horsey dad has just commented (without prompting) that "her belly is dippy and her back is too" compared to previous photos. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that her entire topline is lacking muscle..? Caused by a lack of protein in the diet to be able to build up the muscle as she works, so hence why more work is making her look poorer and ultimately hence the big looking belly..?

 

[Shilasdair]

Having seen the photographs, I think her belly is not overweight at all, she is just deep through the girth (a good thing) and has had more than one foal.
Grass bellies, IMO tend to be further forward, broodmare bellies are further back, where your mare's is.
I agree that you need to feed her more protein, and probably a vit/min supplement, but she won't build more muscle unless you up her work levels to more gymnastic schooling.
I think you just have to be more patient, and understand that, as an ex broodmare, she is never going to look as trim as a maiden mare again.
I like her though, she looks like a really nice horse - maybe you are just having one of those times when you see all the negatives?
S

 

[RachelB]

Thanks Shils, much appreciated

Funnily enough her name is Maiden...

She is an absolute diamond and is with me for life

I just owe her so much and I want to have her looking happy and healthy but she never seems to look right. I've never been happy with her general condition; she is always either too skinny or too fat! She looked the best she ever has done after a few months of schooling, but sadly that is never going to happen now as her tendon won't stand up to it so I'm stuck with hacking in fairly straight lines forever

I don't see that's any reason for her to look in bad condition though. I might try chumsmum's suggestion of feeding alfalfa with a balancer (I spoke to Dengie at Your Horse Live, who suggested Alfa Lite if ever Maiden started to drop condition) and see how things go. Vet is due to MOT her next month too so I will hopefully be given the go-ahead to start cantering at long last, which will help with her fitness and muscle!
Thanks everyone, replies much appreciated!

 

[legend]

My friend has a 16.2 idxtb who has a similar belly to your girlie, but she's never foaled, so she has no excuse at all!
This year she's got her on baileys lo-cal balancer and hay (she's stabled overnight) and she's looking fantastic compared to last year when she was having literally a handful of alfa a instead, and she was similar to what you describe- scrawny bum and neck - we (meanly) used to say she was just a belly on legs....

Admittedly though they have made a huge amount of progress schooling-wise, and I think (with her anyway) thats made the most difference.
Good luck with the MOT!

 

[cellie]

Change of subject but how bad a tear did your horse have.Im walking mine out for 20 mins per day at the moment and he might have to be a happy hacker if things dont improve.We have 50 % tear sdft complicated by soft tissue injury in coffin joint.I remember you having tendon problems when Ollie had mild tear last summer in other leg so realise its long term .

 

[RachelB]

I never had a percentage given to me by the vet, but it was a 2cm tear coupled with cartilage degeneration = very bad. I saw my vet the other day who cautiously asked if I was walking her out yet. She was over the moon that I said not only is she walking, but she is being ridden and trotted! She has special shoes on in front to allow her to breakover wherever she wants (basically my farrier makes his own shoes and he spins hers inside out), which has made the world of difference. She is as sound as she ever was. I spend two months walking in-hand from 5-30 mins a day, two months walking under saddle from 30-60 mins a day, and am now trotting as well with the total ride being "normal" hacking length (45-90 minutes). I am VERY careful where I ride her, and if I am ever unsure (ice!) then I just don't risk it. Everything hangs on my vet seeing her next month though

 

[RachelB]

I actually had her on Lo-Cal last winter and wasn't overly impressed. It may have been because of her being very fat, but certainly it didn't seem to improve anything much. I am looking at TopSpec as it will mean that I don't have to feed her the GP supplement, biotin or MSM that I am currently giving her. I had her on Lo-Cal and half a dose of biotin last winter and her feet still looked awful until I put her on Formula 4 Feet. I'm hoping the TopSpec can keep her feet in good condition too, so I can stop the biotin.
TopSpec is only about 30p a day more expensive than what I am feeding her now... or so I tell myself to justify the expense

But then, if it works I shall be happy!
Thanks

 

[cellie]

Ill ask vet how big Ollies is when I have scan done on 9th feb.I havent walked in hand because hes a big lad Im only 5 2 and hes much calmer ridden .Fortunately Im not heavy only 9 6 and vet said start ridden work.Will probably have at least 6 weeks just walking which Ive done before hes done ligament tendon and had spavin op so no big shakes always on rehab work.We are using eggbar and gel pads which have really helped his hoof problems and his position seems to be much improved his tendons have always been under strain because of his bad feet and collapsed heels .Farrier is working hard to improve hoof conformation which will take stress of his tendon.I wont take any horse out on ice especially with gel pads not worth the risk.
Good luck with vet you sound like you are making good progress.Ill look out for a post and update.Lets hope we can have some fun in the summer Ive missed two summers and would love to get out and about again

 

[Shilasdair]

Silmarillion
I understand your mare has had a tendon injury, but if you can canter her, can you not do some walk work in the school to build muscle? For example, neck flexion, leg yielding, neck stretches will help to build her neck muscle. Walk pole work, gentle circles and serpentines and shoulder in would help build hindquarters and tighten abdominals?
If she is allowed to work on the surface, that is?
Hope she has no further problems for you.
S

 

[RachelB]

Shils - I'm not entirely sure my vet will allow me to canter her again - we never got to talking about that last time I saw her, as we were so uncertain she'd stay sound in walk and trot. It was more concern about the cartilage damage (it was pretty extensive erosion around the pedal bone area) being made worse during circling, than the tendon itself. I was planning on asking vet about lateral work as it would be easy enough to do that out hacking, but I can certainly run it past her about doing large circles and serpentines. We don't have a school, but we do have large fields, which would make big shapes easy enough to do. It would certainly make life more interesting as I am so sick of hacking out!!
cellie - I am aiming to start doing some sponsored rides with her this year... I may not be able to compete as such, but I'm determined to get her out and about somehow!

 

[CrazyMare]

Your PM's are full btw Silmarillion....

 

[Jericho]

I can see what you mean about the weak quarters - I would say this is due to lack of work but will come on to that..

Her belly looks like a broodmare belly, doubt you can do to much about that, as the muscles just over stretch like an elastic band and dont really over go back however...

my 12 year old gelding is a little like your mare in that he looks a bit poor over his hips / loins and gappy between hips and last rib. He isnt thin by any means anywhere else.

He had physio on Friday and she told me some really useful things - basically he has a little back pain over loins which is making him sink his back a little which puts his posture out. She says he needs to lift his bakc and use his tummy muscles and gave me a couple of exercises to get him to do this, one of which is too difficult to explain and one was to stand facing his belly on the side and gently but firmly scrape your hands towards you and the reflex makes him lift his belly and stregthen back. She also said lots of uphill work, lunging in pessoa and raised pole work (which I guess you could do in walk) She also said that she recommends using a big elastic strap like breeching in slow ridden work working on same principle of pessoa from behind - all of the above is to encourage them to step right under and this will improve the muscle line in the back and 'pull up' the tummy. She said that horses quickly adapt to moving in a certain way to avoid pain and it becomes a habit and then they have start developing abnormal muscle patterns

Just a thought .... hope it helps.
Maybe you get a physio out and check her back for pain and also saddle check (most of the pain my boy has is from saddle sitting too low)

I would have thought the feeding to change shape is a bit limited. I understand protein will build muscle but exercise (in the right way) will do it better.

 

[RachelB]

McTimoney lady checked her over a few months ago, but TBH I was never happy with what she did with her... I think a call to the physio is due anyway, and hopefully you are right and it might help!
I wasn't necessarily suggesting I could feed her to change how she looks, I was just worried that what I was feeding her was holding her back as I have been working her for months now with little improvement.

 

[RachelB]

[ QUOTE ]
Your PM's are full btw Silmarillion....

[/ QUOTE ]
Oopsie, sorry, have cleared a few now!
Thanks

 

[Bounty]

QR
Sil - IMO (which may not count for much

) you need to up the protein levels in the feed so that she has the building blocks to make the muscle. My 20yo broodmare who is just coming back into ridden work is looking similar, and she is on Baileys Stud Balancer because of the high protein levels in it. As M is such a good doer usually though, maybe just a standard balancer would do the job?
I think, to help alleviate the saggy tummy, you need to be doing polework and stuff inhand. She can only truely strengthen through the topline once she has learnt to engage her abs again. once her abs are being used again she will get alot stronger alot quicker, and look much more trim.
Having just spent months and £££££'s on physio rehabbing my KS horse, I have learnt a fair few of these type of exercises. Most of them are based on the Linda Tellington-Jones TTEAM stuff, so might be worth you getting hold of her book? All the exercises can be done in walk, in hand, and only a couple involve circles (so you could skip these) so they might be possible to work into M's plan without stressing the tendon?

 

[teddyt]

Youre in a difficult situation trying to build muscle on a 13yo ex broomare with a tendon injury! I dont think she looks that bad. To be frank she looked pretty awful when you bought her, looks like her saddle didnt fit by the muscles in that area and very weak behind, maybe an old injury? You did a very good job in just two months. I would just increase the protein in her diet and do what schooling you can to build the muscle. She is very lucky to have found you as you are obiously very caring. Good luck

 

[RachelB]

Thanks everyone, all the help is very much appreciated

I will try some straight line exercises and get the poles out. Alfa A and TopSpec are on my shopping list.
teddyt I think she had been starved for a year when I bought her - that's how long her previous owner had her for. She was skinny, unhealthy, had eggbar shoes on (I think she had torn her tendon before I bought her...), had the most godawful saddle (I sold that as soon as she arrived home with me! Never even used it!) and was just generally not a happy pony. Now I think she is cared for too much, in comparison! Not that her previous owner didn't care, just that she did it in a completely different way that didn't suit Maiden at all. All I want for her is to have her happy and healthy for the rest of her days, but it seems to be causing me much stress!
Thanks all, I will take some time to digest all the suggestions and hopefully in a few months' time I will post some improved pics