Considering Dressage, at the highest level.

[Alec Swan]

Is it just me, or are these horses becoming little more than performing circus horses? I watched the display on the TV on Sunday, and was saddened at what seemed to me anyway, to be such a severity of discipline, that most appeared be almost be taking part in a freak show. I didn't see one horse which looked comfortable, not one.

I must be wrong, because the discipline attracts huge audiences, but I wonder if the displays are any better from some of the American purpose bred horses which are ridden in a way that will display such unnatural gaits, and almost party tricks.

Alec.

 

[madlady]

Alec I totally agree.

From watching on the BBC on Sunday I saw 2 horses who looked relaxed (in comparison to the others) and who looked to be enjoying (for want of a better word) what they were doing, one was Valegro and the other was the lovely chestnut ridden by the spanish rider (both names escape me for now)

I went to watch the Spanish riding school when they were on tour over here - the difference in how the horses moved was amazing. It was natural, free flowing, not tense and a joy to watch (I thought).

Equally I've watched lower level (RC) dressage and found that much better viewing that what I saw on Sunday - some of which made me uncomfortable.

 

[AdorableAlice]

I also agree. The need/want to have the best will never change though. Look at any equine sport, watching top level showjumping makes me wince, those horses are at the very limit of what is physically possible. Racing, the TB's are now bred so light of bone to achieve more speed that they look like stick insects. Perhaps a rule should be made - no spurs, fulmer snaffle only, no running reins etc, but the tests remain the same.

How the top level horses are kept sound is beyond me.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think modern competitive dressage at the highest level is best compared to gymnastics or ballet in humans the feats are almost unnatural when you compare them to the more run of the mill human or horse .
I dislike the fact that the format of the modern chamionship competition leaves these very forward willing to work horses looking jaded by the time they get to the Kur.
The demands of the horses at the highest level when you add in travelling long distances performing in extreme heat in some countries favours the hotter temperaments and the younger horses I think this can mean there's a bigger rush to get horses to Grand Prix than there was .
There's no doult that the hotter the horse the more likely their brain is going to carry them forward when tired but this type of horse often shows undesirable tension .
Bred to be sharp to be very forward to be very trainable then hauled round the world to perform I am not sure life is very kind to these horses no matter how kind and ethical their human support team is .
As we have bred horses to be more athletic and have more uphill conformation with the hock more under them the more they can do but I had a very interesting conversation with a FEI vet recently they think the prevalence of injury now is linked to this conformation particularly in the hock which in nature is never set under the horse as it is in the modern warm blood.
Are we doing to some horses what has been done to some breeds of dogs ?
In a sense it is 'tricks ' just like gymnasts do ' tricks ' I don't think it's necessarily a probelm to admit that .
It's a rarified sport at the top end as equivalent to comparing the ballet to me dancing when you compare it to everyday type horses and riders .

 

[Goldenstar]

How the top level horses are kept sound is beyond me.

I suspect Tildren and lots of joint injections.

 

[ihatework]

There are aspects of competitive dressage that really concern me.
That said there are aspects of most equestrian sports that also concern me, especially horse racing and showing

 

[KautoStar1]

At the highest levels I think british dressage has come a long way. Carl Hester’s way of training and managing his horses is now proving itself and many have cottoned onto that more sympathetic approach to training. We have also been lucky to have Valegro to showcase his talents, not just as a rider but also as a trainer, in perhaps a way that wasn’t so obvious outside of the dressage inner circle.
But these horses are bred and over bred to be hot and sensitive and the skill of someone like Carl is to find a way to allow the expressiveness to come through without over boiling and you will see from his riding of Nip Tuck on Sunday, that he forsook some of that extravagance and expression to keep the horse as relaxed as possible in order to create a better long term experience for this horse.
Valegro is a bit of a freak of nature, but I think its fair to say even he struggled on Sunday in the kur. It was not the best performance we have seen from him and whether the nature of the competition structure has a part to play in that I don’t know, whether it’s the physical demands or the mental demands of such a high pressure atmosphere. It must take its toll surely, even on the most seasoned campaigner. I guess this is why we see Carls horses so infrequently, they are carefully placed to limit the demands of competition with the aim of keeping them sound and healthy for the longer term.

But is it any worse than show jumping, where horses are now jumping ridiculously huge jumps, strapped down in the most hideous bit / martingale contraptions or racing where TB’s are now so interbred that they have no bone, no substance and no longevity. Horses of any discipline that don’t get turned out at all or enough. Show horses and ponies that are so fat they wobble round the ring. Or some of the numpty general public that have horses and have no idea how to ride or care for them. The list is endless when you think about it.

 

[Cortez]

I stopped watching modern competitive dressage years ago. It makes uncomfortable viewing for anyone who apreciates horses.

Dressage as a sport has lost it's way and ethical, kind training seems to have been cast aside in pursuit of ever more extravagant "expressive" (expressing what?) movement. Shameful.

 

[Wheels]

Yes agree! I'm getting to the point now where I struggle to watch the overbent piaffes, the non tracking up extended trots, the no longer can be called canter pirouettes

 

[Wheels]

And the fact that horses can achieve 9s and 10s for the above movements when they are so clearly not correct!!

And don't get me started on 4 beat trots and 4 beat canters - I have heard some people say that rules should be changed because horses that are truly built uphill will always canter 4 beat at least in slo mo so let's update the rule book to say 4 beat canters are OK where I totally disagree and think we should stop breeding freaks of nature that can't trot or canter properly

 

[SpringArising]

At the highest levels I think british dressage has come a long way. Carl Hester’s way of training and managing his horses is now proving itself and many have cottoned onto that more sympathetic approach to training.

Wouldn't exactly class him as sympathetic. Can't remember where, but I remember him saying publicly years ago that he's not afraid to give a horse a good hiding if it's playing up. Coming from someone who is hugely influential & a role model for a lot of younger people - nice.

 

[tristar]

I`ve thought for a long time they look like performing seals in a sad circus.

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm not alone, it seems! In any sport, be it motor racing where cars and drivers are both playing permanent catch-up with each other, in the efficiency stakes, or in an equine sport, where it seems that the animals are permanently on the back foot (figuratively!), so I wonder if we aren't asking too much from an animal which despite the levels of breeding and research in to their physiology, we continue to seek out fresh medications and fuels, and forget that it's only an animal.

The very same thing can be said of racing and endurance riding, for some. The ME approach to endurance work is to wring the very last drop of effort and ability out of a horse, and then discard it as there are others coming along. I suspect that though flat racing here isn't as bad as the ME efforts, we none the less continue to demand more from the horse, and forget that it is only a horse, and that however clever we think we are, we are still using the basic animal and one which hasn't really altered or kept up with the times or our demands.

I will be honest, and accepting that I don't even ride(!), none the less the future of all our top level equine sports worries me.

Alec.

 

[Clare85]

Two things concern me about the situation:

1) the welfare of the horses who are at the top level, their long term soundness and mental health will be affected by having to perform with such tension and unnatural gait.

2) the example it is setting for riders/trainers at the lower levels. You see all too often people riding around hanging onto the front end of their horses for dear life whilst jabbing them in the sides with spurs. When I was at PC, they never mentioned outline - the key was to get your pony/horse moving forwards and enjoying itself, so you were having fun together.

Sad

 

[KautoStar1]

Wouldn't exactly class him as sympathetic. Can't remember where, but I remember him saying publicly years ago that he's not afraid to give a horse a good hiding if it's playing up. Coming from someone who is hugely influential & a role model for a lot of younger people - nice.

I can’t comment on what CH may or may not have said as I don’t know, didn’t hear him say it or what he said and the context it was said in.
My point, although maybe not very well put, was that in general Carl’s horses, even the vet hot ones such as Nip Tuck and Dances with Wolves, are ridden in tests in a sympathetic way to try to get the best out of them, which at times will be to the detriment of “expression”, but to give a softer more harmonious, accurate result. Compared say to Glocks Undercover who looks like a coiled spring, tense, tight and unhappy. As do many of the dutch and german trained horses. There is quite a visible difference. If you look at the soft sympathetic riding of Carl, Charlotte and Fiona at the weekend, which to me at least, was much nicer to watch, vs. EG or HPM for example. And a few years ago, this sort of riding was being rewarded. In truth Charlotte won her kur gold at London 2012, not because she did a complicated difficult routine like Adelinde to gain high artistic marks – for instance tempi changes on a circle, one handed – but because she rode a sympathetic correct test and the judges rewarded correct training and correct movement of the horse eg correct sequence of footfall, softness through the body, etc etc.

All of a sudden we’re back to flashy front end movement, tight tense necks – agreed not nice at all.

 

[KautoStar1]

I'm not alone, it seems! In any sport, be it motor racing where cars and drivers are both playing permanent catch-up with each other, in the efficiency stakes, or in an equine sport, where it seems that the animals are permanently on the back foot (figuratively!), so I wonder if we aren't asking too much from an animal which despite the levels of breeding and research in to their physiology, we continue to seek out fresh medications and fuels, and forget that it's only an animal.

The very same thing can be said of racing and endurance riding, for some. The ME approach to endurance work is to wring the very last drop of effort and ability out of a horse, and then discard it as there are others coming along. I suspect that though flat racing here isn't as bad as the ME efforts, we none the less continue to demand more from the horse, and forget that it is only a horse, and that however clever we think we are, we are still using the basic animal and one which hasn't really altered or kept up with the times or our demands.

I will be honest, and accepting that I don't even ride(!), none the less the future of all our top level equine sports worries me.

Alec.

I don't disagree with any of this Alec. In fact, it seems that now competing is the sole reason people ride these days. Compete to win and nothing less will do.

 

[Old Bat]

Totally agree.

 

[Simon Battram]

Wheels - the rules re canter pirouette have already been changed to allow the 4 beat canter:

"In the pirouette or half pirouette in the canter, the Judges should be able to recognise a real canter stride although the feet of the diagonal - the inside hindleg, outside front leg - are not touching the ground simultaneously."

So apparently now a 4 beat canter is still a real canter stride.....plain wrong in my opinion.

 

[Goldenstar]

I'm not alone, it seems! In any sport, be it motor racing where cars and drivers are both playing permanent catch-up with each other, in the efficiency stakes, or in an equine sport, where it seems that the animals are permanently on the back foot (figuratively!), so I wonder if we aren't asking too much from an animal which despite the levels of breeding and research in to their physiology, we continue to seek out fresh medications and fuels, and forget that it's only an animal.

The very same thing can be said of racing and endurance riding, for some. The ME approach to endurance work is to wring the very last drop of effort and ability out of a horse, and then discard it as there are others coming along. I suspect that though flat racing here isn't as bad as the ME efforts, we none the less continue to demand more from the horse, and forget that it is only a horse, and that however clever we think we are, we are still using the basic animal and one which hasn't really altered or kept up with the times or our demands.

I will be honest, and accepting that I don't even ride(!), none the less the future of all our top level equine sports worries me.

Alec.

I don't disagree with any of this Alec. In fact, it seems that now competing is the sole reason people ride these days. Compete to win and nothing less will do.

I don't agree with you on the ride to compete thing my horseyfriends spilt about half and half .
And a fair few who go to low level competitions truly just for fun.

 

[KautoStar1]

I don't agree with you on the ride to compete thing my horseyfriends spilt about half and half .
And a fair few who go to low level competitions truly just for fun.

I was generalising a little bit GS and basing it on quite a lot of the people I know who ride. The thought of going for a nice long hack in the countryside, just for the thrill of being out in the open enjoying down time with their horses sends them into panic. Off hacking again they ask me. Yup, I like it, my horse likes it and we both get the best out of each other that way.

 

[tristar]

the canter pirouette has always been 4 time to classically trained horses, as far as I know anyway.

Alec, the fact that you don`t ride probably gives you an advantage, you have an innocent and unbiased eye, I often ask people who don`t ride what they think of a horse, it can be very interesting because they don`t seem to see technicalities, they see the overall impression.

 

[tristar]

wheels says lets stop breeding freaks, I agree, what was I,t long legs etc, the mind boggles.

 

[Simon Battram]

the canter pirouette has always been 4 time to classically trained horses, as far as I know anyway.

No it has not; 3 beat canter for the pirouette. However classically speaking the old masters used to have more variation in the paces than we do today. For example to gain the piaffe they made the walk into the School Walk, a 2 beat walk (diagonal never lateral) and then added the energy and gained the piaffe. The canter went from 3 beat to 4 beat and then to the 2 beat 'terre a terre' which you can still see today as a pre-cursor before the airs above the ground.

 

[elliefiz]

I'm not alone, it seems! In any sport, be it motor racing where cars and drivers are both playing permanent catch-up with each other, in the efficiency stakes, or in an equine sport, where it seems that the animals are permanently on the back foot (figuratively!), so I wonder if we aren't asking too much from an animal which despite the levels of breeding and research in to their physiology, we continue to seek out fresh medications and fuels, and forget that it's only an animal.

The very same thing can be said of racing and endurance riding, for some. The ME approach to endurance work is to wring the very last drop of effort and ability out of a horse, and then discard it as there are others coming along. I suspect that though flat racing here isn't as bad as the ME efforts, we none the less continue to demand more from the horse, and forget that it is only a horse, and that however clever we think we are, we are still using the basic animal and one which hasn't really altered or kept up with the times or our demands.

I will be honest, and accepting that I don't even ride(!), none the less the future of all our top level equine sports worries me.

Alec.

Completely agree Alec. Unfortunately the FEI's handling of endurance riding and the ME doesn't bode well for them addressing the problems within dressage. I also rarely ride anymore due to lack of time. but like you I do breed and as a result the future of equine sports concerns me. The Olympic committee has been trying to drop equestrianism for many years now, I won't be surprised if the Aachen disaster doesn't give them further ammunition. The RK incident has been widely reported in Europe in mainstream newspapers such as Der Welt, not exactly enamouring the public towards dressage as a nice sport to watch. Of course the problems don't start and end in dressage, show jumping at the highest levels has its dirty secrets as I'm sure most top level sports do. But when the welfare of an animal is involved how can we (as the collective public) turn a blind eye?

 

[Goldenstar]

All top level sports are at risk of adversely effecting the horses welfare .
As is the keeping of horses on poor quality yards with rotten turn out , working horses on poor surfaces , giving them insufficient exercise , letting them get too fat or too thin . Letting improperly qualified ' therapists ' 'treat' lame horses , tolerating the appalling shoeing standards that you see at any show you go to I could go on and on and on and on .
No where, no part, no equine activity has the moral high ground here .
You will find bad practise everywhere at every level.

 

[elliefiz]

All top level sports are at risk of adversely effecting the horses welfare .
As is the keeping of horses on poor quality yards with rotten turn out , working horses on poor surfaces , giving them insufficient exercise , letting them get too fat or too thin . Letting improperly qualified ' therapists ' 'treat' lame horses , tolerating the appalling shoeing standards that you see at any show you go to I could go on and on and on and on .
No where, no part, no equine activity has the moral high ground here .
You will find bad practise everywhere at every level.

Completely agree. But the difference is top level athletes in every sport are publicly lauded, rewarded handsomely for their efforts and considered role models. If cruelty and wrong doings are so casually accepted at top level then what hope for everyone else? Ignorance is to blame for a lot of cruelty that happens at the most basic levels. The same excuse can't be used at the highest levels.

 

[SpringArising]

All top level sports are at risk of adversely effecting the horses welfare. No where, no part, no equine activity has the moral high ground here .
You will find bad practise everywhere at every level.

Completely agree. But the difference is top level athletes in every sport are publicly lauded, rewarded handsomely for their efforts and considered role models. If cruelty and wrong doings are so casually accepted at top level then what hope for everyone else? Ignorance is to blame for a lot of cruelty that happens at the most basic levels. The same excuse can't be used at the highest levels.

Completely agree. And just because abuse happens across the board in all our disciplines, that doesn't mean we should accept it as the norm and try to bury our heads in the sand. The change needs to start somewhere, whether that be dressage, SJ, gymkhanas or polo!

 

[Goldenstar]

Ignorance is not an excuse never has so much information been available so easily .
Yet I see things that make my hair curl all the time .
My pet thing is the tide ...no tsunami of equine misery being caused by bad shoeing .
The horse cares not one jot whether it is a world beater worth millions or a a hacking horse kept for pleasure and to the horse it's no different.

 

[tristar]

quote; the pirouette lose all its value when it is done by a horse who is unable to do a collected canter in 4 times, unquote nuno oliviera.

I`m sure there is someone on here who knows better

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

Wouldn't exactly class him as sympathetic. Can't remember where, but I remember him saying publicly years ago that he's not afraid to give a horse a good hiding if it's playing up. Coming from someone who is hugely influential & a role model for a lot of younger people - nice.

and your problem is? a horse truly playing up will benefit from a short sharp shock, in the same way as a kid playing up will.

too many people think discipline is a dirty word hence the proliferation of bolshy mummies little darlings in both the equine and child sense....................

i think this a daft accusation to be throwing around tbh.