Considering Dressage, at the highest level.

[Barnacle]

I find where this argument has gone rather bizarre... A 4-beat canter isn't going to HARM any horse. This argument was, I thought, initially surrounding welfare - now it's "purity of gaits"? The "purity" of a gait is an entirely subjective human concept. Dressage is "made up". We ought to be careful not to confuse our concepts with the welfare of horses. Horses do plenty of 4-beat gaiting... Walk, gallop, all the ambling gaits... It's not a problem in itself. I think arguing over the aesthetics derails the thread completely and distracts from serious cocerns. The need for so many injections. The stressed state of many horses at competition. Rollkur.

 

[Goldenstar]

I find where this argument has gone rather bizarre... A 4-beat canter isn't going to HARM any horse. This argument was, I thought, initially surrounding welfare - now it's "purity of gaits"? The "purity" of a gait is an entirely subjective human concept. Dressage is "made up". We ought to be careful not to confuse our concepts with the welfare of horses. Horses do plenty of 4-beat gaiting... Walk, gallop, all the ambling gaits... It's not a problem in itself. I think arguing over the aesthetics derails the thread completely and distracts from serious cocerns. The need for so many injections. The stressed state of many horses at competition. Rollkur.

Your completely right , the principles of dressage are a human construct .
A horse with a incorrect gait can be a completely happy horse .
However I own a very very uphill horse with huge foreleg action breed naturally into him.
He is not built to stretch he finds it hard it's a feat of balance and athleticism for him to do it ,it's as hard for him to go LL and deep as it is for a built on the forehand cob to do piaffe . He is at risk of several conditions because of this most principally KS .
I do think there is a risk of going to far with specialist breeding and ending up where we are with some dog breeds .

 

[Alec Swan]

I find where this argument has gone rather bizarre... A 4-beat canter isn't going to HARM any horse. This argument was, I thought, initially surrounding welfare - now it's "purity of gaits"? The "purity" of a gait is an entirely subjective human concept. Dressage is "made up". We ought to be careful not to confuse our concepts with the welfare of horses. Horses do plenty of 4-beat gaiting... Walk, gallop, all the ambling gaits... It's not a problem in itself. I think arguing over the aesthetics derails the thread completely and distracts from serious cocerns. The need for so many injections. The stressed state of many horses at competition. Rollkur.

Not a wasted word.

Alec.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Is it just me, or are these horses becoming little more than performing circus horses? I watched the display on the TV on Sunday, and was saddened at what seemed to me anyway, to be such a severity of discipline, that most appeared be almost be taking part in a freak show. I didn't see one horse which looked comfortable, not one.

no, I've not liked watching it for years-I don't even care to watch the GB riders currently although I think they have helped improve the image of the sport from a few years ago. Those big moving horses just leave me a bit cold tbh. I think there are concerns at top levels of all equestrian sports (I am a closet sjing fan) though wrt welfare etc.

The only time I watch anything remotely lumped in with 'dressage' is when I am watching Working Equitation or the Portuguese School and high level WE is hard on the horses, there's no doubt. does look more fun though!

 

[Fuzzypuff]

Wow, so many assumptions and generalisations in this thread!!!

All this talk of injections and what they must be injecting - I don't doubt that they do inject, but which of you know for SURE what is injected and therefore the impact it has on the horse? What about all the leisure horses that are injected to keep them going, some without even a diagnosis? How about those ridden on bute?

Talk about clipping and how surely it MUST be for a sinister reason, it can't be because the horses get hot. Hell, maybe the riders think they look smarter clipped out?! I tell you what, the thought had crossed my mind to clip mine out all year as he does get hot, he is a dressage horse and has never had an injection save for his Flu and Tet in his life! Where are the stats to show most clipped horses don't have their legs clipped?!

Where are the studies to show:

The mental and physical pressure of training at top level is not beneficial to horses, it is extreme stress, wear and tear, and something only a select few can just about stand up to.

Where are studies showing that leisure horses are happier than competition horses? How is top competition worse than keeping a leisure horse in the field all week only to drag it out at the weekend to hare around the countryside or over a course of show jumps?

I stopped watching modern competitive dressage years ago. It makes uncomfortable viewing for anyone who apreciates horses.

Dressage as a sport has lost it's way and ethical, kind training seems to have been cast aside in pursuit of ever more extravagant "expressive" (expressing what?) movement. Shameful.

On what are you basing your comments on - how do you know that there is now no ethical kind training compared to before? Are you saying that no-one who competes is kind or ethical in their training of their horses? Is training horses to be expressive by default unethical?!

Two things concern me about the situation:

1) the welfare of the horses who are at the top level, their long term soundness and mental health will be affected by having to perform with such tension and unnatural gait.

2) the example it is setting for riders/trainers at the lower levels. You see all too often people riding around hanging onto the front end of their horses for dear life whilst jabbing them in the sides with spurs. When I was at PC, they never mentioned outline - the key was to get your pony/horse moving forwards and enjoying itself, so you were having fun together.

Sad

Are ALL horses at the top level performing with "such tension and unnatural gait"? What is "unnatural"?

So many comments with so little to back them up! And somehow this "competitive dressage" is so much worse than the fat cobs about to have a heart attack in the local show ring, laminitic ponies (many of which are laminitic because they have been turfed out on a field full of cow pasture!), leisure horses ridden with tight backs and in inverted outlines that go on to have kissing spines or leg injuries... the list goes on!

And on the second point, short of requiring licenses to allow for horse ownership, how exactly do you propose top dressage riders prevent ignorant people from making their own interpretation of what they are seeing and doing their own version? What about those who lob on all manner of gadgetry and point their horses at massive fences having paid no attention to conditioning and fitness to get to that point?

I also find it bizarre that some people like to almost worship the word of the classical masters and anything different must be incorrect... who is to say what is correct? It is all the product of human perception. Given we have far more advanced science now are we not in a better position to ensure the welfare of horses compared to 10s or 100s of years ago? Or indeed to establish whether a canter is 3 or 4 beat? Just because something was decided upon earlier, does that necessarily make it more right?!

 

[oldie48]

Thank you for posting this video, I found it really helpful, the comparative photos of horses were especially useful. I think it explains why I love to watch a horse like valegro whilst some horses look so uncomfortable performing at the highest level. We naturally look for symmetry and in some horses, it just isn't there. whilst judges continue to reward horses that do not move correctly or show tension, training methods won't change and breeders will continue to breed for "ever more" extravagant movement even if it distorts the symmetry of the horses movement. I thought the coverage of the FEI Europeans in this weeks H&H was interesting, Judy Harvey had sympathy for the panel judging Totilas at Aachen in front of a home crowd. Frankly, I don't, if you are prepared to reward a lame horse with over 81% rather than ring the bell to eliminate it, you are a big part of the problem in modern dressage and need to be removed!

This is an interesting view...http://epona.tv/dressage-astray-part-one

 

[Alec Swan]

Wow, so many assumptions and generalisations in this thread!!!

……..

Do you feel able to offer unqualified support for those Dressage horses, and their display of 'going', which we see among the upper echelons of competition? Do you feel that those who view such displays, and feel disquiet at what they see, have doubts and fears which are ill-founded?

Alec.

 

[Cortez]

Wow, so many assumptions and generalisations in this thread!!!

On what are you basing your comments on - how do you know that there is now no ethical kind training compared to before? Are you saying that no-one who competes is kind or ethical in their training of their horses?

I'm basing my comments on nearly 40 years of breeding, training, judging and competing dressage horses (20 years at FEI levels) on 3 continents and working with some top trainers ("names", many of them). I have seen some terrible things done to horses in the pursuit of competition glory. I have, of course, also seen some superb training, but most of THAT was not in competition environments.

 

[LilacWillow]

Wow, so many assumptions and generalisations in this thread!!!

All this talk of injections and what they must be injecting - I don't doubt that they do inject, but which of you know for SURE what is injected and therefore the impact it has on the horse? What about all the leisure horses that are injected to keep them going, some without even a diagnosis? How about those ridden on bute?

Talk about clipping and how surely it MUST be for a sinister reason, it can't be because the horses get hot. Hell, maybe the riders think they look smarter clipped out?! I tell you what, the thought had crossed my mind to clip mine out all year as he does get hot, he is a dressage horse and has never had an injection save for his Flu and Tet in his life! Where are the stats to show most clipped horses don't have their legs clipped?!

Where are the studies to show:



Where are studies showing that leisure horses are happier than competition horses? How is top competition worse than keeping a leisure horse in the field all week only to drag it out at the weekend to hare around the countryside or over a course of show jumps?



On what are you basing your comments on - how do you know that there is now no ethical kind training compared to before? Are you saying that no-one who competes is kind or ethical in their training of their horses? Is training horses to be expressive by default unethical?!



Are ALL horses at the top level performing with "such tension and unnatural gait"? What is "unnatural"?

So many comments with so little to back them up! And somehow this "competitive dressage" is so much worse than the fat cobs about to have a heart attack in the local show ring, laminitic ponies (many of which are laminitic because they have been turfed out on a field full of cow pasture!), leisure horses ridden with tight backs and in inverted outlines that go on to have kissing spines or leg injuries... the list goes on!

And on the second point, short of requiring licenses to allow for horse ownership, how exactly do you propose top dressage riders prevent ignorant people from making their own interpretation of what they are seeing and doing their own version? What about those who lob on all manner of gadgetry and point their horses at massive fences having paid no attention to conditioning and fitness to get to that point?

I also find it bizarre that some people like to almost worship the word of the classical masters and anything different must be incorrect... who is to say what is correct? It is all the product of human perception. Given we have far more advanced science now are we not in a better position to ensure the welfare of horses compared to 10s or 100s of years ago? Or indeed to establish whether a canter is 3 or 4 beat? Just because something was decided upon earlier, does that necessarily make it more right?!

Horses are not fully mature until they are at least 8 years of age. Classical masters did extensive groundwork with their horses, the idea being they could perform movements in hand before performing them under saddle. Classical training did not allow horses to learn certain movements until they reached a certain age, 12 being the oldest!! This allowed them to build up their muscles slowly, rather than being rushed through like in modern dressage, which is all done straight under saddle, and there are horses as young as 7 and 8 competing at top level. Not to say everything in classical dressage is totally humane, or perfect, but it's much better than modern dressage.

I used to have lessons with a grand prix rider, his method of getting my horse to work correctly was to constantly squeeze on reins so tight he could hardly move forwards, so I had to constantly push on a normally forward going horse to get him doing the biggest strides he possibly could. My fingers were rubbed raw through my gloves and my horse actually started bleeding out of his nostrils.

Proper groundwork has made my horse work better, and he can collect on the buckle of his reins. He does not go fast but he is relaxed, responsive and it is much more correct and enjoyable now I am not forcing him to go fast whilst pulling his head in.

There is supposed to be no tension in dressage. Yet that is all there is at top level, and that is all I was taught to harbor by a dressage instructor.

I take it you have never read anything by Alexander Nevzorov. That is contemporary work.

Also, breeding massive 17hh warmbloods with incorrect movement is pretty unethical, the way a horse should move and look is NOT a 'product of human perception', who do you think you are, God? The way horses are bred now is far removed from the original wild native pony. Surely THAT tells you something isn't right. Just look at the difference between a pug and a wolf, and consider how many health problems a pug has.

If dressage was a true test of horsemanship then we would see all types of horses competing in it, not freakishly big warmbloods, as any horse is able to perform correct, relaxed movement, as stated in rules of classical riding.

And all the other examples you have given are those of amateur riders and owners. Those at the top level should be representing a top level of horsemanship, for all amateurs to aspire to. Not really setting a very good example, are they?

And well, I can guarantee that a horse that spends all week in a field to be ridden only at the weekend is a million times happier than some bubble-wrapped, isolated stallion stuck in transit for hours to be dragged out into massive arenas that would scare a human being. A horse is supposed to graze all day, and has no concept of the artificial human idea of 'sport.' How can you even compare those levels of stress?

 

[ester]

Has Nevzorov managed to teach any of his horses latin yet?

'So many comments with so little to back them up! And somehow this "competitive dressage" is so much worse than the fat cobs about to have a heart attack in the local show ring, laminitic ponies (many of which are laminitic because they have been turfed out on a field full of cow pasture!), leisure horses ridden with tight backs and in inverted outlines that go on to have kissing spines or leg injuries... the list goes on!'

I don't think anyone is saying it is worse? As stated regularly on this forum just because there are other bad things happening doesn't mean the case in point shouldn't be discussed.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I take it you have never read anything by Alexander Nevzorov. That is contemporary work.

afraid I cannot tie him seriously-he has a very shady past and I don't trust his methods as I rarely see his horses without tension.I don't do hyperbole and feel he's nothing more than a poor circus trainer.

 

[Simon Battram]

I also find it bizarre that some people like to almost worship the word of the classical masters and anything different must be incorrect... who is to say what is correct? It is all the product of human perception. Given we have far more advanced science now are we not in a better position to ensure the welfare of horses compared to 10s or 100s of years ago? Or indeed to establish whether a canter is 3 or 4 beat? Just because something was decided upon earlier, does that necessarily make it more right?!

I am not anti the 3 beat canter being collected, correctly, through to 4 beat and then 2 beat.

My point is quite simple: if when riding a walk pirouette the walk went from 4 beat to 2 beat you would get heavily penalised both for that movement, in the submission and paces mark. The rider did not ride the change of gait from 4 beat to 2 beat it happened. So to get penalised is in my opinion correct.

So the rider then rides a canter pirouette and the canter changes from 3 to 4 beat yet there is no penalisation just rule changes.

How is this for a whacky suggestion: Let the rider show, on approach to the pirouette that they can ride the collection to change the canter from 3 beat to 4 beat, then ride the pirrie, exit in 4 beat and ride the transition to 3 beat. Then you can have a mark for the transitions. At no other time for simply going into a movement is the gait allowed to change.....

 

[tristar]

well I do worship oliveira so must be bizarre, I`m not saying every iota of his training is for everyone or every horse or every circumstance.

oliveira also said that the canter approach, pirouette and exit should be in the same canter, this makes sense as it shows the horse has not lost its rhythm or balance, I would think.

lilac willow, love your post!

 

[kc100]

All competitive sports (talking top level here) have better riders and poorer riders, yes it would be lovely if all top riders in any discipline set perfect examples to all amateurs but alas, this is not the case. This isnt limited to equestrian sports either; doping accusations and failed drugs tests are rife in cycling, athletics....the problem with any 'competitive' sport is just that - COMPETITION. Just by pure definition of the word it sums up the problem with sport in general:

The activity or condition of striving to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others / An event or contest in which people take part in order to establish superiority or supremacy in a particular area. (Taken from the Oxford Dictionary).

As others have said, people taking part in competitions will do anything to win, because those who enjoy competition (again talking top level not those having fun at lower levels) are of a competitive nature, and enjoy winning - the sort of person who gets in a mood when the lose even at Monopoly. So when those who enjoy winning and hate defeat, work their way up the levels of their chosen sport, it becomes more difficult, competition gets fiercer and they eventually get sucked into doing whatever it takes to get to the top and stay there. Hence why we see examples of horses who are tense, stressed and whose daily routine is not what would be defined as an 'ideal' scenario for a horse.

There are exceptions to this of course, and I do feel the British riders are much more pleasurable to watch as Carl does advocate relaxation even at the expense of expression, and that personally sits better with me. I dont like showjumping on the whole because of the endless gadgets I see on the horses, there is one Italian I've seen who is an exception to this (his name escapes me) who jumps without a martingale and looks like he is having so much fun; but other than that I rarely see a horse who looks like it is enjoying jumping with the endless gadgets pulling its head about.

I am lucky enough to have found myself a dressage trainer who is the perfect balance between 'classical' and 'modern/competitive', and he himself has the best outlook I've ever heard on dressage. He rode for the Spanish High School so has the classical background, yet has also competed at Grand Prix and now in his 60's is a trainer living in Spain but comes over to the UK for clinics. His only goal in working with new horses & riders is relaxation, I have watched him give the same lesson time and time again so it has drilled into me the importance of relaxation. Until the horse can relax the neck and back, and work in self carriage you dont have the correct foundations. And if you lose relaxation at any point you go back, regain the relaxed frame and move onto whatever it is you want to work on. He believes any horse, Warmblood or not, should be able to get to Medium level dressage - beyond that you need more of the ability to collect and extend that some breeds do not posses. However that is not to say it is impossible - there are examples of many breeds who make it up the levels, and are not Warmbloods. Yes these are the exception to the rule, but if it can be done no-one should generalise that its impossible.

When I come to back my youngster and one day go onto compete it will never be at the cost of relaxation - but then again I am not a super competitive person who wants to win. I am more interested in having my youngster, who I have trained myself, keeping him sound and healthy and building a partnership throughout the years; that will be reward enough in itself regardless of where he places at competitions. If we get a frilly that's a bonus, and there is no reason why he cant be successful as he is bred for the job but I will get a lot of pleasure from him that doesnt just involve competing. But this is exactly why I could never be a professional rider, I dont have what it takes with that 'competitive nature' to be ruthless and win, winning attracts owners and sponsors and that keeps you financially afloat - ultimately competitive riding needs a lot of money, to attract money you need to win.

It is all a vicious circle and we can criticise all we want as well informed outsiders - but when that is your business, your livelihood, your financial security for your family....it puts things in a different perspective. In an ideal world, all people at top levels of sport, equestrian or not, would be perfect examples to young people and amateurs - but add money and the desire to win into the mix and you will never get it.

So we can all abandon sport thinking 'what's the point' as ultimately it is all for selfish greed and glory, the horse is not the number one over the individual's desire to be successful - or we can accept that sport is sport, when winning is involved nothing can be perfect and stop getting so het up about it. There are some that do set better examples than others, and they are the people I like to watch. We respect those who set better examples, and we dislike those whose riding style is not to our taste. Usain Bolt vs Justin Gatlin was penned 'good vs evil' at the recent World Athletic Championships, and we have a bit of a situation like that in dressage; the good is the relaxed, less stressed style of riding (I personally think Carl achieves that but that it my opinion and I know others disagree, we are all entitled to our opinions) and the evil is rollkur/hypertension etc.

Hopefully good will triumph in the end just as Usain Bolt won the other day.....I do see at least in the UK the more relaxed style of dressage building momentum and we are all very quick to criticise anyone seemingly riding in a RK/tense fashion, once the continent catches on a bit more (they are starting to) and judging also catches up perhaps the sport will move in the right direction.

 

[Pigeon]

It's hard to watch, isn't it, and definitely in the spotlight at the moment. I thought there were a few diamonds at both the Young Horse Finals and Aachen, unfortunately overshadowed by a few hideous examples in both.

I like the classical principles, of time, patience, clarity and lightness, but can't find it in me to worship the SRS as some do. It all looks a bit hollow and shuffly to me. But then maybe I am used to seeing Warmblood show trots. Plus their animals are still going strong in their twenties, and in my opinion Airs above the Ground is a step above GP, so maybe they have it right.

Futurities should be discontinued. Look at what they have done to the AQHA world. Do we want our Warmbloods to go the way of the Quarter Horse???

I think popular opinion may eventually filter down to the judges and we will start to see a change. It's happening already I feel.

 

[Bernster]

To add my tuppence worth, I caught some of the action from Aachen FEI GPS last night so I understand a little of the controversy, albeit from a very inexperienced perspective. Even to my eyes, Undercover's test was difficult to watch, so tense and tight (apart from what looked like some lovely half passes) and heavy handed. Charlotte's was so much more relaxed and loose. I still think the tense, tight, overbent, two halves of a horse not working together, tests seem to do surprisingly well at these levels which I struggle to understand.

 

[oldie48]

Well they shouldn't do. If 2 FEI judges can give a lame horse 81% and 7 FEI judges not notice the horse is lame, there is something desperately wrong with the quality of judging.

To add my tuppence worth, I caught some of the action from Aachen FEI GPS last night so I understand a little of the controversy, albeit from a very inexperienced perspective. Even to my eyes, Undercover's test was difficult to watch, so tense and tight (apart from what looked like some lovely half passes) and heavy handed. Charlotte's was so much more relaxed and loose. I still think the tense, tight, overbent, two halves of a horse not working together, tests seem to do surprisingly well at these levels which I struggle to understand.

 

[The Snowman]

Surely the bad riding from a fair few top riders nowadays is down to bad judging/marking? If the tests were judged as they should be and relaxation and fluidity between the whole horse and rider was taken into account and scores reflected this, then we wouldn't have the problems we now face. It is likely to get worse as well, as young or amateur riders will watch this and try to copy, not knowing that it is wrong, and resulting in the next generation of riders being just as bad, if not worse! I know that this won't be the case with everyone, but it is a worrying thought never the less.

It doesn't help that generally riding lessons are going downhill with more focus on where the horses head should be than what the whole image of the horse should look like. People learning to ride being told to 'kick to go, pull to stop' it's no wonder we are where we are now.

All these training aids to try and 'fix' horses, when often it is the rider that needs to be fixed! I know from personal experience, and I don't mind admitting, I used to blame the horse if something was going wrong in our tests/riding. I have realised though that it was down to me for the way we were going, after all, 'never ask a horse a question you haven't given the answer'. It is down to us to ride the horse properly and equip them with answers, not the other way round.

It is great to see that Britain don't have as big a problem as other countries, especially when we have role models such as Charlotte and Carl!!

 

[kc100]

Well they shouldn't do. If 2 FEI judges can give a lame horse 81% and 7 FEI judges not notice the horse is lame, there is something desperately wrong with the quality of judging.

I run dressage competitions at a BD venue (show secretary/steward) and spend a lot of time with judges. Now I cant speak for the training the FEI provides to judges, but knowing what the BD judges tell me, BD train judges not to point out when a horse is lame because well, as silly as this sounds - its not politically correct, not polite and lameness is open to interpretation. What one person sees as lame, another may not agree - so BD tell judges not to stop a test when a horse is lame, even if it is blatantly lame, because it is likely to create conflict with the owner/rider and they can argue all sorts as to why its not 'lameness' even though the rest of the world would call it so.

In the case of the FEI judges, I personally think they will have been in a tricky spot with regards to this particular situation - the horses all had to undergo a trot up with the vets, and this horse must have passed to have been allowed to compete - so who is a judge to disagree with a vet? Would you as a judge feel you had the authority to disagree with a vet on such a public stage? I know I wouldnt! I agree the quality of judging in this case is questionable, even if the horse is lame but they cant stop the test, they should at least mark accordingly based on the uneven steps and poor movement.

That is what my BD judges do at least do, most would never pull up a horse for being lame (have actually seen one do this but that was quite severe circumstances and the horse blatantly didnt want to do any more of the test) but they do at least mark accordingly when a horse is uneven and showing questionable lame steps. And many will talk to the competitor afterwards to raise their concerns (never using the word lame though).

You'd be amazed how many riders, at all levels, take huge offence to anyone making a claim that their horse is even showing a tiny amount of uneven steps, never mind calling their horse lame - again a whole other kettle of fish about the basics of horse ownership and how many people actually would recognize lameness in their own horse.....but if you dare as a judge or steward or anyone else for that matter say their horse is lame you'll start world war 3!

I do think that at international level it is a hard place to be for a judge - at lower levels if someone turns up on a lame horse you can mark them with 4's, 5's and 6's, they might be annoyed and may even make a complaint but ultimately no-one has seen any of this in a particularly public fashion and life goes on. However when you are judging an international competition, the whole world is watching you and your every mark is scrutinised. If you mark one particular combination too low then you can be accused of disliking that particular country (all the politics that go on with international relationships), you are conscious of not being too disparate from the other judge's marks, you are conscious that this is an international combination where these riders have been chosen as the best in their country and a vet has passed that horse as physically fit to compete, when you get to international GP you dont often see many marks below 65% and really it shouldnt happen at that level because these are supposedly the best horses and riders in the world. If a judge starts marking too low then they are inadvertently criticising the vets, the selectors, the trainers, the owners.....half the country!

I do think it is a bit of a political game international judging and I'm sure this will have been a factor in this particular case - I wouldnt be so quick to criticise the judges as there will be a lot more to it than we can imagine as mere spectators.

 

[kc100]

Surely the bad riding from a fair few top riders nowadays is down to bad judging/marking? If the tests were judged as they should be and relaxation and fluidity between the whole horse and rider was taken into account and scores reflected this, then we wouldn't have the problems we now face.

It is all a vicious circle - you cannot become a judge until you have ridden at certain levels in accordance to what level you want to judge, so you have to ride in a competitive fashion at affiliated competitions to become a judge, so these bad riders can become bad judges because they have ridden at that level (and are all of this competitive mindset hence not putting the horse first etc as per my original post). So they will carry on judging in the way they rode - badly. That is not to say there are not good judges out there and there hopefully in the future will be some good riders becoming judges rather than just the bad riders becoming judges - but because of the way BD insist on you becoming a judge it does aid the recruitment of poor judges we seem to have an issue with currently.

Again I think another problem, more so on an international level, is that many judges are of the older generation (no offence intended!), we have very few younger judges coming through the ranks (mainly because they are too busy riding!). So for the continental judges who perhaps are more inclined to like the tense/RK style of past on the continent, they may mark that higher - whereas younger riders on the continent are starting to catch on to the more relaxed style as per Carl and Charlotte, so they are starting to ride in that way but it may take a while for the judging to catch up purely down to the age of the judges and how they used to ride.

 

[Bernster]

Really interesting stuff KC100 and you make a lot of valid points. Who am I to judge judges given that I don't even compete, so I totally get where you are coming from and I def agree they must experience those challenges and stresses. But then again they are appointed to give their personal marks based on a set criteria so one would hope they can be firmer in reaching a view e.g. on marking irregular steps or tension. Totally get why they might not stop a test for lameness given the circs., but it should show in the marks at least.

 

[oldie48]

96 in the BD hand book " In the case of marked lameness, the senior officiating judge is to inform the rider that the horse is eliminated. There is no appeal against this decision if there are any doubts as to the horse's soundness, the competitor will be allowed to complete the test and any unevenness of pace severeley penalised." Totilas was clearly lame and most of the audience could see it. These were judges at the very top of their game, IMO it was inexcusable for them to allow a lame horse to continue regardless of which horse it was, which country it represented and how brave they needed to be to do the "right" thing. some of the judges gave Totilas an 8 for his paces and 81% overall. The horse was lame, in pain and being asked to perform at the highest level. I cannot find any justification for it except cowardice. The reason I feel so strongly about it is that it was a particularly high profile competition and it gives dressage a bad name.

I run dressage competitions at a BD venue (show secretary/steward) and spend a lot of time with judges. Now I cant speak for the training the FEI provides to judges, but knowing what the BD judges tell me, BD train judges not to point out when a horse is lame because well, as silly as this sounds - its not politically correct, not polite and lameness is open to interpretation. What one person sees as lame, another may not agree - so BD tell judges not to stop a test when a horse is lame, even if it is blatantly lame, because it is likely to create conflict with the owner/rider and they can argue all sorts as to why its not 'lameness' even though the rest of the world would call it so.

In the case of the FEI judges, I personally think they will have been in a tricky spot with regards to this particular situation - the horses all had to undergo a trot up with the vets, and this horse must have passed to have been allowed to compete - so who is a judge to disagree with a vet? Would you as a judge feel you had the authority to disagree with a vet on such a public stage? I know I wouldnt! I agree the quality of judging in this case is questionable, even if the horse is lame but they cant stop the test, they should at least mark accordingly based on the uneven steps and poor movement.

That is what my BD judges do at least do, most would never pull up a horse for being lame (have actually seen one do this but that was quite severe circumstances and the horse blatantly didnt want to do any more of the test) but they do at least mark accordingly when a horse is uneven and showing questionable lame steps. And many will talk to the competitor afterwards to raise their concerns (never using the word lame though).

You'd be amazed how many riders, at all levels, take huge offence to anyone making a claim that their horse is even showing a tiny amount of uneven steps, never mind calling their horse lame - again a whole other kettle of fish about the basics of horse ownership and how many people actually would recognize lameness in their own horse.....but if you dare as a judge or steward or anyone else for that matter say their horse is lame you'll start world war 3!

I do think that at international level it is a hard place to be for a judge - at lower levels if someone turns up on a lame horse you can mark them with 4's, 5's and 6's, they might be annoyed and may even make a complaint but ultimately no-one has seen any of this in a particularly public fashion and life goes on. However when you are judging an international competition, the whole world is watching you and your every mark is scrutinised. If you mark one particular combination too low then you can be accused of disliking that particular country (all the politics that go on with international relationships), you are conscious of not being too disparate from the other judge's marks, you are conscious that this is an international combination where these riders have been chosen as the best in their country and a vet has passed that horse as physically fit to compete, when you get to international GP you dont often see many marks below 65% and really it shouldnt happen at that level because these are supposedly the best horses and riders in the world. If a judge starts marking too low then they are inadvertently criticising the vets, the selectors, the trainers, the owners.....half the country!

I do think it is a bit of a political game international judging and I'm sure this will have been a factor in this particular case - I wouldnt be so quick to criticise the judges as there will be a lot more to it than we can imagine as mere spectators.

 

[Cortez]

96 in the BD hand book " In the case of marked lameness, the senior officiating judge is to inform the rider that the horse is eliminated. There is no appeal against this decision if there are any doubts as to the horse's soundness, the competitor will be allowed to complete the test and any unevenness of pace severeley penalised." Totilas was clearly lame and most of the audience could see it. These were judges at the very top of their game, IMO it was inexcusable for them to allow a lame horse to continue regardless of which horse it was, which country it represented and how brave they needed to be to do the "right" thing. some of the judges gave Totilas an 8 for his paces and 81% overall. The horse was lame, in pain and being asked to perform at the highest level. I cannot find any justification for it except cowardice. The reason I feel so strongly about it is that it was a particularly high profile competition and it gives dressage a bad name.

Hear, hear: if the horse is plainly lame, no amount of political correctness can excuse allowing it to continue. I have eliminated horses for lameness when judging, and suffered the slings and arrows as a result (best ever from a furious competitor: "He's NOT lame, he just limps a little"!

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. knowing what the BD judges tell me, BD train judges not to point out when a horse is lame because well, as silly as this sounds - its not politically correct, not polite and lameness is open to interpretation. What one person sees as lame, another may not agree - so BD tell judges not to stop a test when a horse is lame, even if it is blatantly lame, because it is likely to create conflict with the owner/rider and they can argue all sorts as to why its not 'lameness' even though the rest of the world would call it so.

…….. .

Bloody Hell! I'm not sure whether to laugh or not! If we watch Ch 4 Racing, how often do we see the non-runners listed as 'lame'? So 'lame' doesn't race, but 'lame' at dressage is acceptable? Are there not Vets at these venues? What happens when Vets view Event horses at a 'trot up'? Is there no soundness test at dressage?

kc100, this isn't a slight against you!

Alec.

 

[kc100]

Bloody Hell! I'm not sure whether to laugh or not! If we watch Ch 4 Racing, how often do we see the non-runners listed as 'lame'? So 'lame' doesn't race, but 'lame' at dressage is acceptable? Are there not Vets at these venues? What happens when Vets view Event horses at a 'trot up'? Is there no soundness test at dressage?

kc100, this isn't a slight against you!

Alec.

Haha dont worry no offence taken!

For whatever reason (probably due to sheer number of BD competitions that happen every week around the UK) there are no vets at lower level dressage venues - well not at least the one I work at or others I have been to. There are no trot-ups required for your average affiliated BD competition, so no official vet on hand to declare whether any given horse is lame or not. Hence why a judge, despite the rule book, often would struggle to pull a competitor up mid test for their horse being lame as it is open to interpretation unless you are a vet who is qualified to make that diagnosis. I've never been to Regional Festivals, Area Festivals or the Nationals so not sure if vets are present once you get to the more important competitions (presume they would be), but for your typical qualifying classes for BD there are no vets required on site.

There definitely are trot ups at international competitions, and in this case Totilas passed the trot up at Aachen - I think the finger should be pointed at the vet as well as the judges in this case as they were the ones that allowed the horse to compete in the first place. As I said before, as a judge it must be incredibly hard to penalise a horse for lameness when a qualified veterinarian (you'd hope a decent one at a competition of this standard!) has passed a horse as sound in a trot-up.

 

[kc100]

96 in the BD hand book " In the case of marked lameness, the senior officiating judge is to inform the rider that the horse is eliminated. There is no appeal against this decision if there are any doubts as to the horse's soundness, the competitor will be allowed to complete the test and any unevenness of pace severeley penalised." Totilas was clearly lame and most of the audience could see it. These were judges at the very top of their game, IMO it was inexcusable for them to allow a lame horse to continue regardless of which horse it was, which country it represented and how brave they needed to be to do the "right" thing. some of the judges gave Totilas an 8 for his paces and 81% overall. The horse was lame, in pain and being asked to perform at the highest level. I cannot find any justification for it except cowardice. The reason I feel so strongly about it is that it was a particularly high profile competition and it gives dressage a bad name.

The judges I know and come to my venue would all say they'd struggle to declare 'marked lameness' unless it was a really severe case, so yes they should be marking down where soundness is in question - and the majority do.

In the case of Totilas, I totally agree that the judges should not have marked so highly - however it is ultimately the vet who allowed that horse to compete, as the vet passed the horse in the trot up. So as a judge they couldnt have pulled the horse up in the test because a vet had passed the horse in a trot up - a judge cant trump a vet in terms of their ability to judge soundness, regardless of who the judge is!

And to add a bit more balance here, the horse was withdrawn after the initial team competition following being seen by vets after the performance - so at least someone did spot the issue albeit after the test. The trot up vet has a lot to answer for in this instance!

I do completely see where you are coming from and you are right, it is giving dressage a bad name, but I do feel for the judges when a trot up has already occurred and the horse passed, however I totally agree that they shouldnt have marked so highly based on that test.

 

[kc100]

Hear, hear: if the horse is plainly lame, no amount of political correctness can excuse allowing it to continue. I have eliminated horses for lameness when judging, and suffered the slings and arrows as a result (best ever from a furious competitor: "He's NOT lame, he just limps a little"!

Haha that comment doesnt surprise me at all, the things competitors come out with never cease to amaze me - always good for a laugh though! Had a test sheet screwed up and thrown in my face a few weeks back, and I'm just the steward! You judges are lucky you have your cars/judging boxes to hide in

I do think most judges lack the confidence to claim 'marked lameness' and often dont want the backlash of complaints to BD etc - which I can understand because after all they enjoy judging and dont want BD receiving a load of complaints and getting pulled in by BD over it. But thankfully the judges I know would all mark down for lameness or any uneven steps and do often talk to the competitor at the end of the test to raise their concerns. It is a bit of a wimpy approach I know but I can understand why they'd do it that way, rather than an out and out elimination - BD are forever telling judges to be encouraging and to promote the sport so eliminating someone goes very much against that.

 

[oldie48]

Sorry but you are incorrect. the trot up takes place before the start of the competition not just before the horse competes. At FEI competitions the judge at C has the responsibility for eliminating a lame horse, at Aachen this was the Dutch judge. Any competing horse could theoretically injure itself or develop a condition which causes lameness after the trot up and there has to be an appointed person to deal with this situation. Actually, at the trot up, Totilas was held and there was some dispute about his soundness. i think it is correct to say that at this level there is more than one officiating vet. I know when my daughter competed at an FEI competition the trot up was in front of the ground jury, not just one vet. Frankly, if a judge at this level is not capable of seeing when a horse is lame, how the hell can they judge the quality of any movement. The "issue" was spotted by most of the audience during the test. With reference to an earlier post, lameness is not "subjective" a horse is either lame or not, the degree to which it is lame may be 1/10th or more but it is still lame. In this case we are not talking about a horse pootling through a prelim test, it is a horse competing at the limit of it's athletic ability and to allow a horse to continue when it is in pain is a welfare issue not one of political correctness.

The judges I know and come to my venue would all say they'd struggle to declare 'marked lameness' unless it was a really severe case, so yes they should be marking down where soundness is in question - and the majority do.

In the case of Totilas, I totally agree that the judges should not have marked so highly - however it is ultimately the vet who allowed that horse to compete, as the vet passed the horse in the trot up. So as a judge they couldnt have pulled the horse up in the test because a vet had passed the horse in a trot up - a judge cant trump a vet in terms of their ability to judge soundness, regardless of who the judge is!

And to add a bit more balance here, the horse was withdrawn after the initial team competition following being seen by vets after the performance - so at least someone did spot the issue albeit after the test. The trot up vet has a lot to answer for in this instance!

I do completely see where you are coming from and you are right, it is giving dressage a bad name, but I do feel for the judges when a trot up has already occurred and the horse passed, however I totally agree that they shouldnt have marked so highly based on that test.

 

[oldie48]

If judges lack the confidence to tell a competitor that their horse is lame,how on earth do they have the confidence to mark a test? I would have no faith in a judge that couldn't spot a lame horse and neither would most BD competitors. the BD judges that i know are knowledgeable and have integrity, I have no doubt that they wouldd "ring the Bell". If a judge can't tell the difference, they shouldn't be doing the job and I doubt very much that BD encourages judges to allow obviously lame horses to continue, it is bad for the sport, appalling for the horses and does nothing to promote the sport.

Haha that comment doesnt surprise me at all, the things competitors come out with never cease to amaze me - always good for a laugh though! Had a test sheet screwed up and thrown in my face a few weeks back, and I'm just the steward! You judges are lucky you have your cars/judging boxes to hide in

I do think most judges lack the confidence to claim 'marked lameness' and often dont want the backlash of complaints to BD etc - which I can understand because after all they enjoy judging and dont want BD receiving a load of complaints and getting pulled in by BD over it. But thankfully the judges I know would all mark down for lameness or any uneven steps and do often talk to the competitor at the end of the test to raise their concerns. It is a bit of a wimpy approach I know but I can understand why they'd do it that way, rather than an out and out elimination - BD are forever telling judges to be encouraging and to promote the sport so eliminating someone goes very much against that.

 

[oldie48]

Sorry but my last word on the subject. I don't need a vet to tell me a horse is lame, I can do that myself as indeed can most owners and riders (how did Rath not know???) I need a vet to tell me "why a horse is lame". If a rider doesn't know their horse is lame, they need telling!!