blueneonrainbow
Well-Known Member
you asked where you could make a complaint too. how are you NOT complaining about it?
contact details to report low flying military aircraft
- Thread starter Selkie
- Start date
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite
Well-Known Member
Allow me to enter the fray, if I may be so bold. I am hearing what people are saying and can see where you're all coming from.
I used to keep mine at livery in an area where the Royal Marines train regularly. I need say no more about how many men they've lost recently, and my heart just goes out to them because its very likely indeed that some of the (very) young men, boys really, that "spooked" my horse in the undergrowth while I was having a jolly time riding along in the fresh air, have come home in a body bag, and that's such an unspeakably awful thought.
One day I came across two horses and riders Hi Viz'd up to high heaven: surprising as there was very little road work necessary in that area. When I asked them why they were dressed that way, they said it was so if there were military in the area, and/or helicopters flying overhead, then they could be clearly seen and it was therefore in the interests of safety. I thought that was a really good, sensible thing to do, and started doing the same myself.
Having had a Chinook fly directly overhead while I was down below in the woods (couldn't be seen!) in the middle of a military exercise, my boy (luckily) was fine with it all, which surprised me, but reassured me too, (aaaarrrrgggh heart in mouth!), bless him, what a super boy.
Now he's at home at my yard, and we live near a regional airport: every year up till now we've had the Red Arrows flying in to land as they use the airport as a base for their displays roundabouts. So all the horses around here are thoroughly OK with low-flying stuff. I do remember an accident elsewhere in the area where something flew over low and spooked a lady's horse, and it panicked and trampled the gate with her underneath, so that wasn't so good.
The problem seems to be, reading everyone's posts here, is where low-flying aircraft don't fly over regularly so horses get used to them, its a sporadic thing, which is maybe the problem. If something happens regularly horses get used to it and de-sensitise, its the occasional things that cause the problems.
I don't see what the answer is unfortunately. Perhaps the only thing, if it were possible, would be to "borrow" horses from those of us who live in low-flying areas, to de-spook the nervous horses by being in the field with them when it happens.
I used to keep mine at livery in an area where the Royal Marines train regularly. I need say no more about how many men they've lost recently, and my heart just goes out to them because its very likely indeed that some of the (very) young men, boys really, that "spooked" my horse in the undergrowth while I was having a jolly time riding along in the fresh air, have come home in a body bag, and that's such an unspeakably awful thought.
One day I came across two horses and riders Hi Viz'd up to high heaven: surprising as there was very little road work necessary in that area. When I asked them why they were dressed that way, they said it was so if there were military in the area, and/or helicopters flying overhead, then they could be clearly seen and it was therefore in the interests of safety. I thought that was a really good, sensible thing to do, and started doing the same myself.
Having had a Chinook fly directly overhead while I was down below in the woods (couldn't be seen!) in the middle of a military exercise, my boy (luckily) was fine with it all, which surprised me, but reassured me too, (aaaarrrrgggh heart in mouth!), bless him, what a super boy.
Now he's at home at my yard, and we live near a regional airport: every year up till now we've had the Red Arrows flying in to land as they use the airport as a base for their displays roundabouts. So all the horses around here are thoroughly OK with low-flying stuff. I do remember an accident elsewhere in the area where something flew over low and spooked a lady's horse, and it panicked and trampled the gate with her underneath, so that wasn't so good.
The problem seems to be, reading everyone's posts here, is where low-flying aircraft don't fly over regularly so horses get used to them, its a sporadic thing, which is maybe the problem. If something happens regularly horses get used to it and de-sensitise, its the occasional things that cause the problems.
I don't see what the answer is unfortunately. Perhaps the only thing, if it were possible, would be to "borrow" horses from those of us who live in low-flying areas, to de-spook the nervous horses by being in the field with them when it happens.
suzysparkle
Well-Known Member
It may well have been seeing as you don't know who the pilot was. You have to understand that if you want to have a go at a military pilot for doing his or her job you are essentially having a go at them all. No-one has had a go about you being annoyed. What they have had a go at was the offensive word you used for which you still have not apologised. I struggle to understand why you can't see that given the reactions you have had.
Of course you are entitled to express yourself as is everyone else. However, you did offend a few people, myself included. I believe it wasn't your intention to do so but seeing as you don't seem to care that you have maybe I ought to believe otherwise.
suzysparkle
Well-Known Member
The OP isn't the one that used an offensive word and has not kicked up a fuss. It was a totally legitmate question by the OP to which I answered with the correct contact details.
annaellie
Well-Known Member
Did the OP not use T**T am not offended by that but I would imagine people who have husbands etc in that will take offense to it
mymare
Well-Known Member
LOL!! Love that!!
Well I'm a very proud relative of two "t**ts" who lost their lives while in the air force, so yes, I am offended at that comment.
I do however understand how frightening it is when they pass overhead when we're with our horses. The Red Arrows (how bloody fab are they!!) flew directly overhead when I was riding my horse in the field one day, she carried on as if nothing was happening while I was totally bricking it! I was also in the field standing in between the two of them poo-picking one day and two Tornados flew VERY low past me then kept flying past for about 15 minutes, again I was ****ping myself, but would never even consider complaining about it! Complain? About them training??? Never heard anything so bonkers.
Excuse typos and lack of grammar - red wine does that to me...*hic*
suzysparkle
Well-Known Member
No. OP was Selkie and no-one has had an issue with her posts. It was Danielle23 who used that word.
And yes, my husband is a Tornado GR4 pilot which is why I found it offensive.
Latiano
Well-Known Member
Totally agree
lizzie_liz
Well-Known Member
Referring back to the OPs post, there has just been a major training exercise at RAF Kinloss for the past 2 weeks. I am not going to get into the debate about low flying aircraft as I know where I stand on the matter with my dad being a Pilot in the RAF and having served in Iraq.
Taken from http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/flyinginfo/
■Combined Qualified Weapons' Instructors (CQWI)
Starting on 5 July and finishing on16 July, the course will involve around 70 aircraft, flying from the Moray air base. The aircraft involved include Harriers, Typhoons, Tornados, Hawks, Pumas, Chinooks, Sentries, FRA Falcons, an E3, a VC10, a C17 and a Dornier. Tornado GR4s will also be flying from RAF Lossiemouth as part of the exercise.
The exercise flying hours are for the afternoon of each day although individual aircraft may fly at other times of the day. There is also the possibility of some helicopter night flying during the first week of the course; however there will be no planned flying over the weekends.
The flying activity will take place away from RAF Kinloss and will involve low-level flying, particularly over target zones simulated for ground attacks. It will also include low flying sorties to the Northern Air Weapon Ranges including the Electronic Warfare Tactics Range at Spadeadam and the range at Tain.
Group Captain JJ Johnston, the Station Commander at RAF Kinloss said: This is a key annual training course which will help ensure that RAF air crews are properly trained to meet the tactical demands of low flying. It tests the crews ability to perform in both planned and unexpected situations. This is also an excellent opportunity to show our RAF colleagues the excellent facilities and support that we have here in Moray.
Occasionally, 1 or 2 Hercules aircraft will use RAF Kinloss as a base for exercising in the Cairngorms ahead of deployments to operational theatres such as Afghanistan. Some of this may require them to land late evening but should not involve weekend flying. This is an essential training requirement.
---------------------------------------
Taken from http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafkinloss/flyinginfo/
■Combined Qualified Weapons' Instructors (CQWI)
Starting on 5 July and finishing on16 July, the course will involve around 70 aircraft, flying from the Moray air base. The aircraft involved include Harriers, Typhoons, Tornados, Hawks, Pumas, Chinooks, Sentries, FRA Falcons, an E3, a VC10, a C17 and a Dornier. Tornado GR4s will also be flying from RAF Lossiemouth as part of the exercise.
The exercise flying hours are for the afternoon of each day although individual aircraft may fly at other times of the day. There is also the possibility of some helicopter night flying during the first week of the course; however there will be no planned flying over the weekends.
The flying activity will take place away from RAF Kinloss and will involve low-level flying, particularly over target zones simulated for ground attacks. It will also include low flying sorties to the Northern Air Weapon Ranges including the Electronic Warfare Tactics Range at Spadeadam and the range at Tain.
Group Captain JJ Johnston, the Station Commander at RAF Kinloss said: This is a key annual training course which will help ensure that RAF air crews are properly trained to meet the tactical demands of low flying. It tests the crews ability to perform in both planned and unexpected situations. This is also an excellent opportunity to show our RAF colleagues the excellent facilities and support that we have here in Moray.
Occasionally, 1 or 2 Hercules aircraft will use RAF Kinloss as a base for exercising in the Cairngorms ahead of deployments to operational theatres such as Afghanistan. Some of this may require them to land late evening but should not involve weekend flying. This is an essential training requirement.
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nativetyponies
Well-Known Member
Is He?
Tornado's ARE fabulous 'planes, the noise they make is awesome.
Not quite as awesome as a Vulcan though, eh?
And I hope your OH stays safe.
paulrichm
New User
Just wanted to add a comment here......
My sister Heather Bell, was killed 7 years ago as a result of a low flying Chinook helicopter - the fourth victim at that time in the 7 years prior due to low flying activities. There have been further deaths since, including Anne Smith, who died in the same area of countryside on the opening day of Heathers inquest.
I have seen recently that the MOD are making some very strong statements regarding the imperative need to train pilots to protect lives in the combat zone.
I have one statement to make:
'Members of the military, valiantly and voluntarily lay down their lives at their own will and for their country - horse riders participating in leisure activities in a non-combat zone do not'
I find the ongoing comments of the MOD and the British Horse Society who subscribe to their behaviour, despite the conviction of the MOD as causal to the unnecessary deaths of many horseriders - to be misguided, irresponsible and without rationale.
We have already seen how our troops are treated in an expendable way - how dare the MOD treat the innocent, tax paying and gentle people of our communities in the same way.
When will they shut their mouths and start getting their act together instead of pointing the finger at everyone else.
Preaching over now....just needed to get that out.
My sister Heather Bell, was killed 7 years ago as a result of a low flying Chinook helicopter - the fourth victim at that time in the 7 years prior due to low flying activities. There have been further deaths since, including Anne Smith, who died in the same area of countryside on the opening day of Heathers inquest.
I have seen recently that the MOD are making some very strong statements regarding the imperative need to train pilots to protect lives in the combat zone.
I have one statement to make:
'Members of the military, valiantly and voluntarily lay down their lives at their own will and for their country - horse riders participating in leisure activities in a non-combat zone do not'
I find the ongoing comments of the MOD and the British Horse Society who subscribe to their behaviour, despite the conviction of the MOD as causal to the unnecessary deaths of many horseriders - to be misguided, irresponsible and without rationale.
We have already seen how our troops are treated in an expendable way - how dare the MOD treat the innocent, tax paying and gentle people of our communities in the same way.
When will they shut their mouths and start getting their act together instead of pointing the finger at everyone else.
Preaching over now....just needed to get that out.
paulrichm
New User
...as a follow on note, for those who have an interest.
Following the inquest, a complaint was raised with the police who were exposed as having botched the investigation into Heather's death.
Subsequently to that, an external investigation was held by a third party and a number of individuals received disciplinary actions including employment termination, demotions and written warnings. A face to face apology was given to the family by the assistant chief constable of the force.
After this, the case was re-opened by the serious crimes squad - numerous irregularities have since been found in the evidence and further evidence was uncovered to support the case offered by the family.
The MOD requested the investigating police force to bring the investigation to a closure.
However, with so many irregularities and inconsistencies, no such closure action has been possible, nor has any prosecution resulted - at this time.
With expressed concern from the MOD, the police have now declared the case as 'held open indefinitely pending further evidence' and have confirmed that the case will remain open until something definitive comes to light to either proceed with a prosecution or confirm closure.
So while there has been some vindication from the events of the inquest and while we now know there were irregularities, there has been no accountability as yet.
Following the inquest, a complaint was raised with the police who were exposed as having botched the investigation into Heather's death.
Subsequently to that, an external investigation was held by a third party and a number of individuals received disciplinary actions including employment termination, demotions and written warnings. A face to face apology was given to the family by the assistant chief constable of the force.
After this, the case was re-opened by the serious crimes squad - numerous irregularities have since been found in the evidence and further evidence was uncovered to support the case offered by the family.
The MOD requested the investigating police force to bring the investigation to a closure.
However, with so many irregularities and inconsistencies, no such closure action has been possible, nor has any prosecution resulted - at this time.
With expressed concern from the MOD, the police have now declared the case as 'held open indefinitely pending further evidence' and have confirmed that the case will remain open until something definitive comes to light to either proceed with a prosecution or confirm closure.
So while there has been some vindication from the events of the inquest and while we now know there were irregularities, there has been no accountability as yet.
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guido16
Well-Known Member
paul,
Nothing I (or anyone) can say will make your situation better.
Your sisters loss will never become easier for you and for that I offer my sincere condolences.
I can see both sides to this argument. I am not referring to your sisters case, just generalising.
Our troops have to train/our riders have to ride safely.
Where is the happy medium? I dont know the answer.
Nothing I (or anyone) can say will make your situation better.
Your sisters loss will never become easier for you and for that I offer my sincere condolences.
I can see both sides to this argument. I am not referring to your sisters case, just generalising.
Our troops have to train/our riders have to ride safely.
Where is the happy medium? I dont know the answer.
spartacrust
New User
I could'nt agree more with the description of t**ts.
Also the MOD are deliberately lying if they say there is nothing you can do about it.
They have been sucessfully sued in the past.
I have recently also been a victim of an extremely low flying jet in the UK and that in a built up area, and can certainly sympathise with any horse rider.
My initial reaction was shock followed by anger that this was deliberate behaviour and not an emergency.
Also the MOD are deliberately lying if they say there is nothing you can do about it.
They have been sucessfully sued in the past.
I have recently also been a victim of an extremely low flying jet in the UK and that in a built up area, and can certainly sympathise with any horse rider.
My initial reaction was shock followed by anger that this was deliberate behaviour and not an emergency.
blakesmum
Well-Known Member
Some people need to grow a set and get over themselves! Do you have any idea how hard it is to spot a rider even in hi viz when flying in a fast jet? Bloody hard I'll tell you that!
Pilots don't go out of their way to 'target' people. If you make the station aware of a problem and make a reasonable request to them they will try and avoid certain areas, for example at Lossiemouth one local yard asked if they could avoid her in the morning for and hour and the same in the evening, it was a reasonable request, nicely worded so they agreed to it. I also know they used to avoid flying over the local schools during exam time.
I've kept my horse beside both RAF Lossiemouth (at the end of the runway), at RAF St Mawgan (to the side of the runway), and near RNAS Yeovilton, I've ridden youngsters who've never seen aircraft so close with no issues, I've had Search and Rescue helicopters pop up from seemingly nowhere when I've been out hacking because they've been called in to resuce someone. I've had Chinooks come low over me because they are on an operational training sortie and can't help the fact I've chosen that time and day to ne on their carefully planned route! They also have set heights at which they may fly, trust me from the ground you cannot judge the height of an aircraft, even if you know what you are talking about, which most people don't!
The only time I've ever seen a horse react severely was because the rider over reacted! She went from slobbing along on a loose rein to grabbing all she could and it was her reaction that paniced the horse, not the aircraft.
As for panicing them in the field, I've seen my horse panic more from a mototrbike roaring past while he's grazing than to the first time he had a tornado fly over his head as it was coming into land, now that is low!
All those who have a problem I suggest you build soundproofed indoor schools and keep your horses in at all times with cotton wool in their ears just in case something gives them a little scare!
Pilots don't go out of their way to 'target' people. If you make the station aware of a problem and make a reasonable request to them they will try and avoid certain areas, for example at Lossiemouth one local yard asked if they could avoid her in the morning for and hour and the same in the evening, it was a reasonable request, nicely worded so they agreed to it. I also know they used to avoid flying over the local schools during exam time.
I've kept my horse beside both RAF Lossiemouth (at the end of the runway), at RAF St Mawgan (to the side of the runway), and near RNAS Yeovilton, I've ridden youngsters who've never seen aircraft so close with no issues, I've had Search and Rescue helicopters pop up from seemingly nowhere when I've been out hacking because they've been called in to resuce someone. I've had Chinooks come low over me because they are on an operational training sortie and can't help the fact I've chosen that time and day to ne on their carefully planned route! They also have set heights at which they may fly, trust me from the ground you cannot judge the height of an aircraft, even if you know what you are talking about, which most people don't!
The only time I've ever seen a horse react severely was because the rider over reacted! She went from slobbing along on a loose rein to grabbing all she could and it was her reaction that paniced the horse, not the aircraft.
As for panicing them in the field, I've seen my horse panic more from a mototrbike roaring past while he's grazing than to the first time he had a tornado fly over his head as it was coming into land, now that is low!
All those who have a problem I suggest you build soundproofed indoor schools and keep your horses in at all times with cotton wool in their ears just in case something gives them a little scare!
NOISYGIRL
Well-Known Member
I rang when we had helicopters doing the same, I was basically told they could do what they want !
NOISYGIRL
Well-Known Member
ahhhhhhhhh, makes sense now. We have wondered whats afoot with all the action in the sky at the moment.
My horse used to be kept in Leuchars so he is well used to them; however - i was utterlyat 2 chinooks coming down to land in a field that had had daffodils in it immediately behind our house!! They came so close to landing then went up again... surely there must be somewhere more remote to do that!?
http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1818101?UserKey=
ETA - hubby has just informed me he was fly fishing at a loch way up in the mountains yesterday on the westcoast near Malliag - a jet went over him really really low, to the extent he had to hold the rod between his knees and cover his ears. He said he could see the pilots and as they went over they tipped their wings each way to him! lol
This happened to me and my hubby with a harrier in Brecon, 1 dropped out of the clouds, shot off, another dropped down wiggled its wings and shot off.
We were on hols in oct near Llandeilo we were walking the dog down in a valley, a jet came so close I could see the pilot, it looked like it was only bout 20 feet off the floor you could see everything, that shot off, I was gobsmacked !
We were on hols in Kidwelly and across the estuary is the beach they use for training, they were doing dog fights all the time every day and night you could hear them too.
I just wish they could train without going over populated areas
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
We have low flying jets here lots of the time, and once the horses have been here for a while they don't bother with them, even the very young ones. I also used to ride in the Lake District a lot, again plenty of low-flying jets but the horses were used to them - I used to jump more than they did! And when I rode in London the air ambulance used to land on the park next to the outdoor school - a bit hairy, but a fact of life.
Tragic accidents will happen around horses, and I have nothing but sympathy for those who have lost loved ones, but I feel exactly the same about the families of soldiers killed in action.
As the daughter of an ex-squaddie, those doing the name-calling should slink off and think themselves lucky that these '****s' are willing to risk their lives for the sake of all of us - even the name-callers on here. For example, by providing search and rescue helicopter services that go out in horrendous weather conditions, at great risk to the crew.
Tragic accidents will happen around horses, and I have nothing but sympathy for those who have lost loved ones, but I feel exactly the same about the families of soldiers killed in action.
As the daughter of an ex-squaddie, those doing the name-calling should slink off and think themselves lucky that these '****s' are willing to risk their lives for the sake of all of us - even the name-callers on here. For example, by providing search and rescue helicopter services that go out in horrendous weather conditions, at great risk to the crew.
NOISYGIRL
Well-Known Member
Just realised how old this thread is and I'd already commented !
blakesmum
Well-Known Member
I just saw it when I checked the today's posts, didn't read when it was started, but I stand by my comments. Especially with what's going on in the world at the mo!
NOISYGIRL
Well-Known Member
Yes it doesn't change anything, just wish they'd send our girls and boys home and not get involved in other countries disputes.
Vixen Van Debz
Well-Known Member
Our yard is about 500m as the crow flies from an active RAF station. They only time they need to inform the stables is on air show day, and they also often ring up if they're doing very localised, low-flying manoeuvres. 99% of the time though, they're tearing it up in the sky above us with no warning and the horses are fine about it: they just need a bit of time at first to get used to the noises.
Booboos
Well-Known Member
It's certainly worth complaining and keeping up the complaints with new incidents. We managed to get the MOD to agree to avoid our area (in Shrops before we moved to France that is) after 3 accidents were reported by different people over 3 years (and numerous near misses). We just kept recording the problems and asking them to do something about it. And before anyone says 'get used to it', my horses are bombproof in traffic and with the usual helicopters, planes, etc. but these helicopters were doing mock landings on the other side of the hedgerow from us and nearly crashed their own helicopter on one ocassion.
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
We get a lot of the jets from Kinloss too. Considering they're closing the base soon - that'll be the end of that I assume. I've had times where I've jumped off my horse if I saw one approaching particularly low - I just get off, just in case then get back on and carry on. Yes, they come low but they have to. We live on a hillside too so its inevitable they're lower to us. Although irritating sometimes, especially when riding a youngster (yep, I have got on a newly backed youngster for the first time and had it chuck me off when a jet came over) but thats life. They have to train. I'd never consider complaning! There's no point in getting them to change areas - EVERYWHERE has people and animals.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
We have them over all the time and the horses (youngsters, mares and foals) never bat an eyelid. Had Chinnooks the other day that low I could almost see the whites of their eyes and they circled us twice, lower each time (neighbour allows them to land on his fields for practice)
I personally think it's up to us to train our horses to accept them, they have an important job to do, I don't think hobby riders have a right to expect anything more from them; if my horses have a problem with something, I train them not to, simple as that.
I personally think it's up to us to train our horses to accept them, they have an important job to do, I don't think hobby riders have a right to expect anything more from them; if my horses have a problem with something, I train them not to, simple as that.
Bug2007
Well-Known Member
The Chinook pilots are very good. They are from a very horsey area in Odiham Surrey/Hampshire.
If out riding even not on the roads then please wear high vis, we are able to see you up to half a mile earlier, and will avoid.
As for horses in fields we try to keep a distant, but when low flying you come over a tree line and sometimes it's too late.
Having worked with the pilots of the chinooks, they do try everything they can to prevent issues.
If out riding even not on the roads then please wear high vis, we are able to see you up to half a mile earlier, and will avoid.
As for horses in fields we try to keep a distant, but when low flying you come over a tree line and sometimes it's too late.
Having worked with the pilots of the chinooks, they do try everything they can to prevent issues.
Booboos
Well-Known Member
Our area is full of hedgerows so the pilots never knew we were there. Worst possible area to practice to be honest, neither the pilots nor the horseriders have any chance of getting out of the way.
POLLDARK
Well-Known Member
While out hacking a new horse (4 year old) for his third effort I was riding a back road on the top side of a valley when a 'young gun' came across the valley very low. Probably the correct height for the valley but certainly not for the top of it. All I could do was sit very tight, watch it come at us & pray. I thought there was a good chance I had had it. I'm not over egging this. I just wrapped my legs round him, not time to turn jump off or anything. He shook like a tree in a gale, just frozen to the spot in fright. When it was gone we just stood there until I had the nerve to sqeeze him hoping it wouldn't release his flight instinct. Fortunately he walked on. I rang the RAF & complained, in a polite manner, & all they sent was a standard reply about how the public can't judge the height of planes. They must have known which pilot it was, could have checked his flight recorder but no ! Didn't care, couldn't be bothered, don't seem to mind if it happens again. We pay their wages, for their plane & for the fuel in it. They are there to protect us not kill us. We have loads of jets over us & we know the usual height for these Tornados, I was not wrong. Sorry to go on but I feel strongly about this, I really thought I was going to meet my maker.
blakesmum
Well-Known Member
Do you have any idea how much effort (manhours which = cash) is involved in milking a data recorder <_< it's only done for serious faults (or recovered after a crash), not to find out where a plane was and how high it was because it upset your horse, which looking at what you wrote it didn't, possibly what fear it felt was transmitted from you anticipating a problem that wasn't there!
I don't see people up in arms because a lorry used it's brakes to stop for you and it's air brakes spooked your horse, or a child has come running out "to see the nice horsey" and sent your horse into orbit and in my experience these are far more common occurences, despite always being next to or very near to airfields and low flying areas!
I don't see people up in arms because a lorry used it's brakes to stop for you and it's air brakes spooked your horse, or a child has come running out "to see the nice horsey" and sent your horse into orbit and in my experience these are far more common occurences, despite always being next to or very near to airfields and low flying areas!
Booboos
Well-Known Member
I for one would be pretty peeved if the lorry or the child did this on my private property. OK I can't be safe on the roads when I ride and OK I can't be safe on bridleways, but when I can't be safe in my own arena I don't see why I shouldn't be pissed off!