Contact issue

[Illusion100]

So, I finally started to finish backing my horse. Some of you may remember he was very difficult, but however has come a long way.

He has always been worked in a fulmer.

The 1st 5 times I rode him where in the fulmer with no noseband and although extremely green, didn't put a foot wrong. Just very short and sweet sessions.

6th time I rode him, his confidence, responsiveness to leg aids were excellent. The brakes however, seemed to be dodgy. Bit of rein snatching although always being ridden on a very light contact, trot to walk transitions were no longer easily responsive.

So cancelled ridden work to organise bridle. Specific cut back headpiece (to eliminate poll discomfort), made to measure grackle and his usual fulmer.

Tacked him up and lunged in saddle and bridle. He fought a loose contact. With himself.

He has had his teeth checked twice within 7 weeks by vet, his back checked by same vet on 1st teeth visit and the saddler check his saddle twice within the same timeframe.

He is not lame or uneven. Being picky, he is slightly stiffer on the right rein than left, but he is able to lift and use himself correctly on both reins on lunge, particularly with half halts if he gets a bit ahead of himself.

Now he is a pretty sassy, opinionated horse. But something isn't right.

I'd like to get him checked over by a "back" person. However I'm not sure which type to go for, oestopath, chiropractor or physio.

Any recommendations?

 

[spotty_pony]

Could be a hind end issue. Hard to say without being able to see. I would go for a Chiropractor but that's just my personal preference, I am sure you will get a varied response. He could be doing it because he is finding it hard at the moment duento not having the correct muscle yet.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Could it just be he doesnt like things over his nose?

Friends horse rides so munch better without a nose piece. Only has one on loosely for competition.

 

[View]

Why go straight to a grackle from no noseband?

my instinct would be to take the noseband off again and see what happens, and if you must have a noseband try a Cavesson.

 

[DabDab]

Tbh just sounds like a baby who hasn't learnt about contact yet.

 

[rextherobber]

I would also get him checked by a good EDT

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Having been in this position myself 18 months ago, I'd opt for a qualified chiropractic vet. A fresh set of eyes, a full work up and body check.
Mine found what my vet (who is a very good vet) overlooked. So thorough, went over before any working, Inc teeth check, observed saddle and bridle fit too and observed moving.
Hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

You say he's had his teeth done, was he sedated for this?
I know not everyone agrees with sedating for teeth (I never did - still a bit on the fence) but having just started working in an equine vets as vet support it is amazing what has been found in the mouth with teeth that has been missed/over looked even when owners have had teeth done regularly.
Unfortunately as I'm sure you're aware there could be any number of reasons for the behaviour that is showing. Hope you get to the bottom of it.
Again seems a bit odd but how are his feet? Any imbalances? It's amazes me how much feet can come into things and throw small little problems

 

[splashgirl45]

were his teeth done by a qualified dentist or by your vet. if not i would do that first as vets are not specialists in teeth and your vet may have missed something..

 

[Pinkvboots]

Tbh just sounds like a baby who hasn't learnt about contact yet.

Agree with this I wouldn't want to start using a grackle or similar this kind of thing can take time, my Arab was so sensitive in the mouth and took ages to properly accept a contact.

 

[Sleipnir]

I second trying again without a noseband or at most a loose cavesson. The description of his behaviour reminds me of my own seasoned horse who will toss his head and "fight contact" (even if there's no contact at all) if he feels any excess pressure on his face at all. He has nerve damage on his face, which I'm sure your's doesn't, but it would be an easy fix to try.

As per checking his back and hind end, I'd also suggest a veterinary chiro.

 

[Parrotperson]

Wolf teeth interfering with contact? Since youvehad his teeth done I would hope they checked this. Made a huge difference to my youngster when he had his out. and take the noseband off again. And when you put one back on cavesson only till he's use to it.

 

[Casey76]

What mouthpiece is the fulmer? Adding a noseband may be causing discomfort with the action of the bit.

Also, is his stop 100% to a voice cue without any rein? If not, I’d go back to ground work and properly install the stop using a cue completely unrelated to the rein.

 

[Melody Grey]

Another who wouldn’t be going down the grackle route just yet (although I’m notoriously anti- gadget). Sounds like it’s learning to accept a slight contact. It’s still early days and the horse may not be strong enough to go there yet? Is the horse safe enough to hack for a bit to build up?

 

[Antw23uk]

The only real change you have made is the grackle ... ditch it ... see what he does. Chiro first for me.

 

[Illusion100]

Could be a hind end issue. Hard to say without being able to see. I would go for a Chiropractor but that's just my personal preference, I am sure you will get a varied response. He could be doing it because he is finding it hard at the moment duento not having the correct muscle yet.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a chiropractor/osteopath too.

He is in super condition, able to sit back on his hocks and lift his front end (obvs not meaning he is moving like a high level dressage horse), just that he is working well from his hind end and working his back with a light front end.

But I definitely agree this is a work in progress and while he manages this on lunge, I certainly don't expect him to pull that off under saddle yet, as I agree, he doesn't have the muscle for that.

However, he did suffer significant hindleg wounds from a gate injury, all signs point to him getting both hindlegs trapped in it. I'm concerned he has strained himself getting free.

Although the vet did check his back and expressed no concern at his response, the possibility he had strained his body is niggling me.

 

[Illusion100]

Could it just be he doesnt like things over his nose?

Friends horse rides so munch better without a nose piece. Only has one on loosely for competition.

He is very relaxed about noseband while being bridled and it is not fastly tightened at all.

He was going super with no noseband until his confidence about leg aids and moving forward freely happened! He became very overconfident very quickly!

He went from dead to the leg and completely reliant on handler to the slightest leg aid and marching out with no head handler within 6 rides totalling approx 2hrs max under saddle.

 

[Illusion100]

Why go straight to a grackle from no noseband?

my instinct would be to take the noseband off again and see what happens, and if you must have a noseband try a Cavesson.

On last ride, where he was a super confident boy, he was opening mouth/crossing jaw and resisting trot to walk transitions, whereas previously he was very good.

As I understand it, a grackle addresses those issues. It has been made to made and checked by saddlers.

However, I did think about removing grackle to see his response. I'm going to try another 2 sessions in the custom made bridle set up made for him, and if no improvement, take the noseband off and re evaluate.

 

[brighteyes]

were his teeth done by a qualified dentist or by your vet. if not i would do that first as vets are not specialists in teeth and your vet may have missed something..

To be fair, vets are now very much stepping up for full dental training and sit the BEVA courses with the EDT students. A lot of practises now have specialist equine dental vets as well as for lameness and so on.

 

[Illusion100]

Tbh just sounds like a baby who hasn't learnt about contact yet.

You see, I'm swaying towards this. In all honesty, this horse will put himself further back on his hocks, lift his ribcage/frontend and carry himself very well on lunge.....as long as that means the bit contact is next to non existent.

Riding means contact and now he has got the grasp of what that means, he doesn't seem to want bit contact whatsoever.

 

[Illusion100]

I would also get him checked by a good EDT

He needs sedated for teeth. Vet did come recommended for teeth. I had that vet up to sedate him while and EDT did his teeth.

Then before I started riding him, had the vet (who others on yard recommended for teeth) sedate and do his teeth.

EDT noted sharp edges and mild hooks on their visit. Vet noted sharp edges. 7 weeks later I had vet out again. He noted sharp edges but absolutely no signs of dental disease or fractures.

 

[Illusion100]

Having been in this position myself 18 months ago, I'd opt for a qualified chiropractic vet. A fresh set of eyes, a full work up and body check.
Mine found what my vet (who is a very good vet) overlooked. So thorough, went over before any working, Inc teeth check, observed saddle and bridle fit too and observed moving.
Hope you get to the bottom of it.

Thanks, this horse has made improvements I didn't think would be possible, I'm so proud of him.

I just want to find the right person to check him over.

 

[Illusion100]

You say he's had his teeth done, was he sedated for this?
I know not everyone agrees with sedating for teeth (I never did - still a bit on the fence) but having just started working in an equine vets as vet support it is amazing what has been found in the mouth with teeth that has been missed/over looked even when owners have had teeth done regularly.
Unfortunately as I'm sure you're aware there could be any number of reasons for the behaviour that is showing. Hope you get to the bottom of it.
Again seems a bit odd but how are his feet? Any imbalances? It's amazes me how much feet can come into things and throw small little problems

He honestly has great feet, (barefoot) and booked for a trim later this week.

Yes, double dose of sedation for teeth!

 

[Illusion100]

were his teeth done by a qualified dentist or by your vet. if not i would do that first as vets are not specialists in teeth and your vet may have missed something..

Again this is niggling at me. But I don't want to call my usual vet out to sedate for and EDT, particularly as that vet has treated his teeth twice within 7 weeks and has told me he has no significant issue whatsoever

 

[Illusion100]

Agree with this I wouldn't want to start using a grackle or similar this kind of thing can take time, my Arab was so sensitive in the mouth and took ages to properly accept a contact.

See, I can work with this. I've no problem whatsoever taking the time this horse needs, with the right equipment.

 

[Casey76]

On last ride, where he was a super confident boy, he was opening mouth/crossing jaw and resisting trot to walk transitions, whereas previously he was very good.

As I understand it, a grackle addresses those issues. It has been made to made and checked by saddlers.

However, I did think about removing grackle to see his response. I'm going to try another 2 sessions in the custom made bridle set up made for him, and if no improvement, take the noseband off and re evaluate.

No you haven’t fixed the issue, you’ve just stuck a sticking plaster over the top of the problem. You need to identify why he is now trying to evade the bit. Silencing the only means a horse has of objecting to the bit, for whatever reason, is unfair.

 

[brighteyes]

You see, I'm swaying towards this. In all honesty, this horse will put himself further back on his hocks, lift his ribcage/frontend and carry himself very well on lunge.....as long as that means the bit contact is next to non existent.

Riding means contact and now he has got the grasp of what that means, he doesn't seem to want bit contact whatsoever.

Riding up to the hand means his hind has to connect and push through. As you know there was an incident with his hind legs I'd be looking there first. Might be some residual muscle damage?

I agree with either removing or at least downgrading the noseband to a zero pressure and no restriction of tongue or jaw movement. The contact should be steady and light but constantly there whilst you are working him.

 

[spotty_pony]

I'm thinking more along the lines of a chiropractor/osteopath too.

He is in super condition, able to sit back on his hocks and lift his front end (obvs not meaning he is moving like a high level dressage horse), just that he is working well from his hind end and working his back with a light front end.

But I definitely agree this is a work in progress and while he manages this on lunge, I certainly don't expect him to pull that off under saddle yet, as I agree, he doesn't have the muscle for that.

However, he did suffer significant hindleg wounds from a gate injury, all signs point to him getting both hindlegs trapped in it. I'm concerned he has strained himself getting free.

Although the vet did check his back and expressed no concern at his response, the possibility he had strained his body is niggling me.

After reading that it is almost certainly a physical issue. Could be sacroiliac or stifles or anything if he was trapped in a gate. Sacroiliac classic symptoms are not lameness but poor performance.

 

[Illusion100]

I second trying again without a noseband or at most a loose cavesson. The description of his behaviour reminds me of my own seasoned horse who will toss his head and "fight contact" (even if there's no contact at all) if he feels any excess pressure on his face at all. He has nerve damage on his face, which I'm sure your's doesn't, but it would be an easy fix to try.

As per checking his back and hind end, I'd also suggest a veterinary chiro.

As far as I'm aware, a grackle (while effective) is less harsh on facial nerves than a flash and does a job where a cavesson does none. I genuinely have plagued various saddlers and each one has come back with grackle. So I've had one made to measure.

I'd love to go back to riding him without a noseband if possible. He is a very sassy/opinionated horse. Hopefully more training and some bodywork will help him.

 

[Illusion100]

Wolf teeth interfering with contact? Since youvehad his teeth done I would hope they checked this. Made a huge difference to my youngster when he had his out. and take the noseband off again. And when you put one back on cavesson only till he's use to it.

He has had his teeth checked within 2 years by both EDT and vet. Wolf teeth seems ok! The issue started once he gained confidence about being ridden.