Contact Query

[smolmaus]

I dont think it has to be that complicated jiffy, I do understand what you're saying but personally I think a lot of people have just normalised a stranglehold on their horses mouth and a genuinely light contact looks like no contact. This is me thinking horses not zebras, occams razor etc.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Thanks @j1ffy I may be trying to fit square pegs into round holes and I should just accept that I need to ride slightly differently for dressage, SJ and XC. Joe would say he comes from the Vaquero tradition. But he is hard to classify because he trained with Buck B but has moved away considerably from BB in many ways. And he was in a relationship with Sophie Wells for a few years. They discovered (to their mutual relief) that they were a lot more aligned with each other than either expected to be. And Joe does teach English dressage and ran dressage clinics/camps alongside Sophie.

He seems to be aware of the differences in Western and dressage on things like pirouettes for example (he explained something about a pivot foot and making sure you did not train this wrong for each discipline, because what is correct in one is totally incorrect in the other but I can't remember the details now). Of course he could just not know what he doesn't know! Which is why I am asking on here and not just asking him. I know what he says about it. But I want to know what higher level dressage peeps say too.

Re power, it's obviously very different but some of the western movements seem pretty precise and powerful too - reinback to canter. Sliding stops. Spins. Flying changes.

I did not choose Joe because he's Western. Initially that put me off and I avoided lessons with him for over a year despite the issues I was having with Lottie because I wanted discipline specific trainers. I've stuck with him after trying him out eventually because he is just so talented and has helped me more than any other trainer I have ever had. And I have had a lot! But I do think I am on path that is quite tricky to navigate really.

 

[j1ffy]

I dont think it has to be that complicated jiffy, I do understand what you're saying but personally I think a lot of people have just normalised a stranglehold on their horses mouth and a genuinely light contact looks like no contact. This is me thinking horses not zebras, occams razor etc.

I'm generally someone who oversimplifies so you could well be right. However I do know that AE is far more analytical than I usually am about horses and I'm not sure that many of the responses here are helping, and trying to work out if it's down to the difference in disciplines or perhaps the difficulties of explaining a 'feel'. I suspect a bit of both, but I do wonder if the disciplines are a bit further apart than those of us who have only known 'English' riding can appreciate.

Thanks @j1ffy I may be trying to fit square pegs into round holes and I should just accept that I need to ride slightly differently for dressage, SJ and XC. Joe would say he comes from the Vaquero tradition. But he is hard to classify because he trained with Buck B but has moved away considerably from BB in many ways. And he was in a relationship with Sophie Wells for a few years. They discovered (to their mutual relief) that they were a lot more aligned with each other than either expected to be. And Joe does teach English dressage and ran dressage clinics/camps alongside Sophie.

He seems to be aware of the differences in Western and dressage on things like pirouettes for example (he explained something about a pivot foot and making sure you did not train this wrong for each discipline, because what is correct in one is totally incorrect in the other but I can't remember the details now). Of course he could just not know what he doesn't know! Which is why I am asking on here and not just asking him. I know what he says about it. But I want to know what higher level dressage peeps say too.

Re power, it's obviously very different but some of the western movements seem pretty precise and powerful too - reinback to canter. Sliding stops. Spins. Flying changes.

I did not choose Joe because he's Western. Initially that put me off and I avoided lessons with him for over a year despite the issues I was having with Lottie because I wanted discipline specific trainers. I've stuck with him after trying him out eventually because he is just so talented and has helped me more than any other trainer I have ever had. And I have had a lot! But I do think I am on path that is quite tricky to navigate really.

I think Joe comes across as a great horseman, and appreciate that your decision to work with him isn't about Western / English - I'd love to have lessons with him as his approach sounds wonderfully refreshing! I don't know Vaquero other than what I've read on here and Google. In Spain there is a discipline called 'Doma Vaquera' but that is different again; Vaquero looks much closer to Western than the Spanish tradition to my eyes, although DV has movements you would see in reining (sliding stops, but not as extreme; pivoting pirouettes (although my trainer in Spain could do a full 180 pivot / a DV pirouette with just 4 or 5 strides and a dressage pirouette with the usual collected 8-9 strides all on the same horse)).

I could well be miles off track with my theory, would love to here what he says about his vs Sophie Wells' approach to contact

ETA - the movements you mention in reining are powerful / precise but I think modern dressage rewards more impulsion and cadence than reining would? Again I have no idea about the latter and how it's marked! I know some dressage riders have moved that way, Anky for instance (who would be extreme on the power / impulsion and definitely on the contact ), so there might be some articles around that more directly compare the two...

 

[Ambers Echo]

I don't really know much about Vaquero either. He is trying to train Remy to be a 'fully finished bridle horse' and to then be able to ride him in a spade bit.

Apparently that takes years and he is far from sure Remy will ever get there, but that is the aim. But I'm just not that interested so have not read up about it much.

And yes I will ask him next time I see him about Sophie's views on contact. We are running a camp together in 2 weeks so I can bend his ear then! Myka is doing a demo on training a green horse for dressage and Remy doing one on Western. So I can ask about differences/similarities. Last time Sophie came too so I should have asked them to dso a joint Q&A!

 

[ihatework]

Adam Kemp tried to do a demo with a western rider/horse at a BD conference once. It was a good concept, the demo imo was a bit of a flop and didn’t demonstrate the message clearly enough, but I could see where it was going.

Riding is difficult as it is. I think trying to interpret different schools of thought and amalgamate them makes it even more difficult Fundamentally I really do think it comes down to feel, which is a tricky thing to teach.

Might be interesting to have a lesson with Sophie as she will be able to put Jo language into it for you.

 

[tristars]

I have a doma vaquera stallion

The thing is everything i try with him comes naturally, since he matured, he was started and worked in basic dressage for a few years before d v started at 10 yrs

When riding him i hardly touch him, including his mouth, i dont do sliding halt for the hocks, he was specifically bred for doma v and his balance is like no other horse i have sat on

First time sitting on him was, wow, this is different , he really stepped under himself when just backed

 

[foxy1]

I know that a lot of people use people like Joe M and Jason Webb to start and ride away, but the horses then move to more typical disciple-specific yards.

Just responding to this point to say that Jason Webb rides more English style (albeit in an Australian Stock saddle), in to a contact and not with any drape in the rein.
He does start lots of young dressage/competition horses.

 

[Hackback]

I've been following this thread with interest and there has been something niggling at me that I've struggled to put into words. I'm going to try, but bear with me if it doesn't make a lot of sense as I know nothing of the tradition that Joe works within.

It seems to be that Joe's approach is rooted in the Western tradition, which is a great approach for Western style sports that (to someone completely ignorant of those disciplines) seem to value smoothness, an easy ride and the horse appearing to do it all him/herself while still having a level of precision. That's a very hard thing to achieve.

Most posters on here are coming at this from the 'English' tradition (albeit from various 'classical' schools whether they are German / Spanish...possibly French but I know that is a bit different again). This approach tends to expect more power and the ability to ask a horse to do something highly athletic at a split second's notice (whether that's turn and jump a 115cm skinny / 160cm SJ / passage-piaffe-passage within 20m). While dressage expects a level of smoothness and light aids (not getting into the debate of whether it demonstrates that or not!), power and extreme precision are valued across the English disciplines. Also a very hard thing to achieve.

I may have this completely wrong but I think you're trying to do something that no-one on this thread has done before, i.e. apply Western-style training / contact to English competitive events. Speaking for myself, I've learned in the English and Spanish traditions, both of which have a clear direct contact with the horses mouth (at least in early training, Spanish dressage moves onto curb-only with a very light contact akin to Western) and I can't imagine training for advanced dressage in a different way.

I know that a lot of people use people like Joe M and Jason Webb to start and ride away, but the horses then move to more typical disciple-specific yards.

As I say, my experience is very limited so I could be wrong, but it feels like you are blazing a trail that most HHOers haven't done?

I also don't know much about Western, but I believe as much power and extreme precision is required in at least some of the disciplines. I'm thinking of the cantering horse skidding to a halt and whipping round on it's haunches to gallop off in the opposite direction, or cutting horses etc. Done I believe by a shift of rider position/weight rather than a pull on the reins, in fact I think it is all done one handed at the upper levels.