Contact Query

I dont think it has to be that complicated jiffy, I do understand what you're saying but personally I think a lot of people have just normalised a stranglehold on their horses mouth and a genuinely light contact looks like no contact. This is me thinking horses not zebras, occams razor etc.
 
Thanks @j1ffy I may be trying to fit square pegs into round holes and I should just accept that I need to ride slightly differently for dressage, SJ and XC. Joe would say he comes from the Vaquero tradition. But he is hard to classify because he trained with Buck B but has moved away considerably from BB in many ways. And he was in a relationship with Sophie Wells for a few years. They discovered (to their mutual relief) that they were a lot more aligned with each other than either expected to be. And Joe does teach English dressage and ran dressage clinics/camps alongside Sophie.

He seems to be aware of the differences in Western and dressage on things like pirouettes for example (he explained something about a pivot foot and making sure you did not train this wrong for each discipline, because what is correct in one is totally incorrect in the other but I can't remember the details now). Of course he could just not know what he doesn't know! Which is why I am asking on here and not just asking him. I know what he says about it. But I want to know what higher level dressage peeps say too.

Re power, it's obviously very different but some of the western movements seem pretty precise and powerful too - reinback to canter. Sliding stops. Spins. Flying changes.

I did not choose Joe because he's Western. Initially that put me off and I avoided lessons with him for over a year despite the issues I was having with Lottie because I wanted discipline specific trainers. I've stuck with him after trying him out eventually because he is just so talented and has helped me more than any other trainer I have ever had. And I have had a lot! But I do think I am on path that is quite tricky to navigate really.
 
smolmaus said:
I dont think it has to be that complicated jiffy, I do understand what you're saying but personally I think a lot of people have just normalised a stranglehold on their horses mouth and a genuinely light contact looks like no contact. This is me thinking horses not zebras, occams razor etc.
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I'm generally someone who oversimplifies so you could well be right. However I do know that AE is far more analytical than I usually am about horses and I'm not sure that many of the responses here are helping, and trying to work out if it's down to the difference in disciplines or perhaps the difficulties of explaining a 'feel'. I suspect a bit of both, but I do wonder if the disciplines are a bit further apart than those of us who have only known 'English' riding can appreciate.

Ambers Echo said:
Thanks @j1ffy I may be trying to fit square pegs into round holes and I should just accept that I need to ride slightly differently for dressage, SJ and XC. Joe would say he comes from the Vaquero tradition. But he is hard to classify because he trained with Buck B but has moved away considerably from BB in many ways. And he was in a relationship with Sophie Wells for a few years. They discovered (to their mutual relief) that they were a lot more aligned with each other than either expected to be. And Joe does teach English dressage and ran dressage clinics/camps alongside Sophie.

He seems to be aware of the differences in Western and dressage on things like pirouettes for example (he explained something about a pivot foot and making sure you did not train this wrong for each discipline, because what is correct in one is totally incorrect in the other but I can't remember the details now). Of course he could just not know what he doesn't know! Which is why I am asking on here and not just asking him. I know what he says about it. But I want to know what higher level dressage peeps say too.

Re power, it's obviously very different but some of the western movements seem pretty precise and powerful too - reinback to canter. Sliding stops. Spins. Flying changes.

I did not choose Joe because he's Western. Initially that put me off and I avoided lessons with him for over a year despite the issues I was having with Lottie because I wanted discipline specific trainers. I've stuck with him after trying him out eventually because he is just so talented and has helped me more than any other trainer I have ever had. And I have had a lot! But I do think I am on path that is quite tricky to navigate really.
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I think Joe comes across as a great horseman, and appreciate that your decision to work with him isn't about Western / English - I'd love to have lessons with him as his approach sounds wonderfully refreshing! I don't know Vaquero other than what I've read on here and Google. In Spain there is a discipline called 'Doma Vaquera' but that is different again; Vaquero looks much closer to Western than the Spanish tradition to my eyes, although DV has movements you would see in reining (sliding stops, but not as extreme; pivoting pirouettes (although my trainer in Spain could do a full 180 pivot / a DV pirouette with just 4 or 5 strides and a dressage pirouette with the usual collected 8-9 strides all on the same horse)).

I could well be miles off track with my theory, would love to here what he says about his vs Sophie Wells' approach to contact :)

ETA - the movements you mention in reining are powerful / precise but I think modern dressage rewards more impulsion and cadence than reining would? Again I have no idea about the latter and how it's marked! I know some dressage riders have moved that way, Anky for instance (who would be extreme on the power / impulsion and definitely on the contact 🫤), so there might be some articles around that more directly compare the two...
 
I don't really know much about Vaquero either. He is trying to train Remy to be a 'fully finished bridle horse' and to then be able to ride him in a spade bit.

Apparently that takes years and he is far from sure Remy will ever get there, but that is the aim. But I'm just not that interested so have not read up about it much.

And yes I will ask him next time I see him about Sophie's views on contact. We are running a camp together in 2 weeks so I can bend his ear then! Myka is doing a demo on training a green horse for dressage and Remy doing one on Western. So I can ask about differences/similarities. Last time Sophie came too so I should have asked them to dso a joint Q&A!
 
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Adam Kemp tried to do a demo with a western rider/horse at a BD conference once. It was a good concept, the demo imo was a bit of a flop and didn’t demonstrate the message clearly enough, but I could see where it was going.

Riding is difficult as it is. I think trying to interpret different schools of thought and amalgamate them makes it even more difficult 😆 Fundamentally I really do think it comes down to feel, which is a tricky thing to teach.

Might be interesting to have a lesson with Sophie as she will be able to put Jo language into it for you.
 
I have a doma vaquera stallion

The thing is everything i try with him comes naturally, since he matured, he was started and worked in basic dressage for a few years before d v started at 10 yrs

When riding him i hardly touch him, including his mouth, i dont do sliding halt for the hocks, he was specifically bred for doma v and his balance is like no other horse i have sat on

First time sitting on him was, wow, this is different , he really stepped under himself when just backed
 
j1ffy said:
I know that a lot of people use people like Joe M and Jason Webb to start and ride away, but the horses then move to more typical disciple-specific yards.
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Just responding to this point to say that Jason Webb rides more English style (albeit in an Australian Stock saddle), in to a contact and not with any drape in the rein.
He does start lots of young dressage/competition horses.
 
j1ffy said:
I've been following this thread with interest and there has been something niggling at me that I've struggled to put into words. I'm going to try, but bear with me if it doesn't make a lot of sense as I know nothing of the tradition that Joe works within.

It seems to be that Joe's approach is rooted in the Western tradition, which is a great approach for Western style sports that (to someone completely ignorant of those disciplines) seem to value smoothness, an easy ride and the horse appearing to do it all him/herself while still having a level of precision. That's a very hard thing to achieve.

Most posters on here are coming at this from the 'English' tradition (albeit from various 'classical' schools whether they are German / Spanish...possibly French but I know that is a bit different again). This approach tends to expect more power and the ability to ask a horse to do something highly athletic at a split second's notice (whether that's turn and jump a 115cm skinny / 160cm SJ / passage-piaffe-passage within 20m). While dressage expects a level of smoothness and light aids (not getting into the debate of whether it demonstrates that or not!), power and extreme precision are valued across the English disciplines. Also a very hard thing to achieve.

I may have this completely wrong but I think you're trying to do something that no-one on this thread has done before, i.e. apply Western-style training / contact to English competitive events. Speaking for myself, I've learned in the English and Spanish traditions, both of which have a clear direct contact with the horses mouth (at least in early training, Spanish dressage moves onto curb-only with a very light contact akin to Western) and I can't imagine training for advanced dressage in a different way.

I know that a lot of people use people like Joe M and Jason Webb to start and ride away, but the horses then move to more typical disciple-specific yards.

As I say, my experience is very limited so I could be wrong, but it feels like you are blazing a trail that most HHOers haven't done?
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I also don't know much about Western, but I believe as much power and extreme precision is required in at least some of the disciplines. I'm thinking of the cantering horse skidding to a halt and whipping round on it's haunches to gallop off in the opposite direction, or cutting horses etc. Done I believe by a shift of rider position/weight rather than a pull on the reins, in fact I think it is all done one handed at the upper levels.
 
You don't need to skid to a halt as in sliding halt, I don't do that

My horse can stop without the sliding part, just with hinds in fairly normal position, he does this in the field, you might think he would collide with fence but he just does an instant halt from canter, then picks up whatever pace

I don't touch his mouth to stop, just breath in he feels that as pressure and instantly halts.

These horses are bred to work cattle and fight bulls, they need to react instaneously or it could be curtains

If he needs to change direction a demi pirouette, turn on haunches

It's about being fully on the aids
 
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WOW @Ambers Echo what an interesting topic and conversation you have created.

I ride my youngster in a similar contact to how you are riding in your post #73 I would never have dreamt of riding a young horse in such a light contact in my younger years as I was always taught to hold everything together until the horse learns to carry themselves. A bit like carrying a toddler until they learn to walk properly themselves. As I've got older I've become more and more aware of how my riding, position, hands, etc etc effect the horses way of going and how they develop. I've read more and more and watched different approaches and then question how things are done previously/traditionally.

I'm not at the stage with mine where we will start to push 'leg into hand' but I'm sure that will raise questions as I now (with my older head on) understand that power/impulsion doesn't need to create speed which needs to be contained by the hands.

My studying for my job/career has gone out the window as I now want to learn more and more to be better in the saddle (I can only absorb one subject at a time these days).

I will be following this thread with keen interest and hopefully be following in your wake AE!
 
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More food for thought after a lenghty chat with Joe at camp.

I fed back some of the above to which he replied:

- Re needing more impulsion from behind, he can't see any biomechanical reason why generating thrust from behind requires any sort of pressure in front. Animals in the wild leaping up onto a prey animal don;t have pressure in front to generate explosive power from behind.
- Re false contact and not being truly through despite feeling light, soft and obedient: yes a horse can sit behind the contact and not be 'through' or connected as he'd call it. But that's a connection issue not a contact one. His horses are 100% on the aids regardless of rein length. And again he can't see a biomechanical reason why true throughness needs any pressure on the mouth.
- Re taking the bit forward and down. If the horse is doing this it is leaning. Even if only slightly. And that lean is a mini form of brace. And a bit of weight is shifting forward. He can;t see why that is anything other than unhelpful if you want a horse to take more weight behind and be as soft as possible
- Re how Sophie rides, he said her hand issues mean an adpated contact anyway for her and many of the riders she rains in that category of disability. So she rides very light and soft. And prefers it that way.

That's not to say he never firms up. He absolutely does if the horse is unresponsive to light rein cues. But then soften again once horse softens. And the horse can feel the rein. It;s not no contact. It's kust 0.5/10 when most trainers might say '2-3/10' was light.

But what we both agreed was that it would be fascinating to get a webinar arranged where a dressage trainer who rides leg into hand discusses this with him. Respectfully and constructively of course! He'd be up for that. And would like to know more himself about their views. So if anyone knows anyone..... Shame he and Sophie are not together anymore! That would have been good.
 
However re-reading my Tik notes, Tik says horses just want a consistent contact. Some prefer light some a bit more secure, and all want it consistent. So he is very 'Joe-like' re working with the horse's mind but they do differ on contact.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Oh and finally Joe says that leg into hand is relatively modern. Classical masters of the past (eg Nuno Oliveira) did not ride like that.
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I have been listening to the Inside the Manege podcast with Maria Cooke and Phillipe Karl and Anja Beran both spoke about this on their episodes. Highly highly highly recommend.
 
Mostly, if you are never planning on selling your horse - ride however you want so long as you are in control and horse and you are happy. If that turns out not to achieve your competitive goals then you can always adjust those.

Half of this whole discussion is confusion between TRAINING and the finished product. I have a finished product. I sit, shift my weight, she rounds and turns and stops and nothing is needed from the reins at all. We can get collection from the seat and control from whispers.

But I cannot train a young horse straight to those aids. Because they don’t get understand what any of that means. You train in bigger, more obvious ways and refine down to the microscopic shifts of weight. She was an on the forehand tank of a mare with giant opinions once. She was not interested in microscopic shifts of weight and her body was not developed sufficiently to find collection easily under saddle. She learned leg and hand. We schooled and developed her body and reactions. Over time the aids refined and her body built. Now she can see a jump and KNOW that she needs to ‘sit’ and collect herself - because with leg and hand I showed her how to jump more easily with a person on - she went ‘ohh!’ and now she can take over and teach a child because she knows what to do.

You start with the obvious things. You show them the way. In the end, all you need is whispers.

Same with children. I teach reading with phonics. We are definitely not sounding out every word still at GCSE!
 
I'm running a camp with Joe at Somerford next year. That will be a clash of cultures! Might set up an evening demo with 2 styles of dressage rider. That could be interesting.
 
Ambers Echo said:
However re-reading my Tik notes, Tik says horses just want a consistent contact. Some prefer light some a bit more secure, and all want it consistent. So he is very 'Joe-like' re working with the horse's mind but they do differ on contact.
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I agree with this. For jumping, I think you do need a consistent contact.
 
Just watched a vid of siglavy mantua, lipizzaner ridden by master klaus krzlisch, oh my god, normally i could cry for dressage horses, i did have tears of a different sort this time, pure joy, not saying its perfection, but what is , the overall impression is of a horse slowly trained, soft and confident

Consistant contact , horse carrying itself and its neck and head in a nice position

Sorry no idea how to upload a link, ! anyhow i am rushing outside to replicate while the impression is fresh!

Although i do know they use sidereins which i dont like

Its an outdoor video a presentation, theres others indoor not so lovable
 
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I wonder if the slobber straps are having an impact in all this.

Joe rides in slobber straps, they will add a weight in the rein for both horse and rider. And the western rope reins are heavier.

The horse will be experiencing a security even without a strong contact.

Whereas our English leather reins are lighter and will flop about unhelpfully and inconsistently without some sort of a contact.

The slobber straps also allow that removal of weight from the rein to be a cue as well. It’s a very different style.
 
Last week I had a Western experience on one of the Quarter Horses at Sudbrooke, here https://www.sudbrookeparkcattleco.co.uk/lessons/

I can thoroughly recommend it, I had a brilliant time on Herbie, who is 'probably the best reining horse in the country'. Herbie is a top of his game highly trained athlete and yet he did his best for a novice like me, we did spins, turn backs, flying changes, despite my ineptitude. It was fabulous.

But when we were stood listening to Joe Herbie wasn't happy with me. He was snatching at his bit irritably. My reins were completely loose so I couldn't understand why he was acting like I was pulling on his mouth. Turns out he was objecting to the movement of the bit because my hands weren't still.

So that was lesson one - you don't need to have any pull on the reins to create a reaction from the horse (and that my hands appear to have free will and be disconnected from my brain, but that's another issue).

Then I had four sessions over the weekend with Isaac Ares Rio, who is classical dressage, and also very different in his views to a lot of what I've been taught (pre Joe) and very passionate.

There was a lot of information to take in in four sessions and I can't remember half of it, but if this link works it will explain better than I can about 'contact'. He told us that horses need to move their heads up and down and side to side to balance and our aids should align to the movement in the instance, which I found really really hard! He also said that it's important to contact with the lips, not the jaw, so pulling a horse into a frame is wrong, which I think we know. He had us lifting our reins so the (very slight) pressure was on the corner of the mouth, which worked beautifully. And then of course lower the reins to neutral as soon as there was a response. Also - circles, circles to slow and balance the horse rather than pulling back.

Stupid link won't work, sorry
 
Hackback said:
Last week I had a Western experience on one of the Quarter Horses at Sudbrooke, here https://www.sudbrookeparkcattleco.co.uk/lessons/

I can thoroughly recommend it, I had a brilliant time on Herbie, who is 'probably the best reining horse in the country'. Herbie is a top of his game highly trained athlete and yet he did his best for a novice like me, we did spins, turn backs, flying changes, despite my ineptitude. It was fabulous.

But when we were stood listening to Joe Herbie wasn't happy with me. He was snatching at his bit irritably. My reins were completely loose so I couldn't understand why he was acting like I was pulling on his mouth. Turns out he was objecting to the movement of the bit because my hands weren't still.

So that was lesson one - you don't need to have any pull on the reins to create a reaction from the horse (and that my hands appear to have free will and be disconnected from my brain, but that's another issue).

Then I had four sessions over the weekend with Isaac Ares Rio, who is classical dressage, and also very different in his views to a lot of what I've been taught (pre Joe) and very passionate.

There was a lot of information to take in in four sessions and I can't remember half of it, but if this link works it will explain better than I can about 'contact'. He told us that horses need to move their heads up and down and side to side to balance and our aids should align to the movement in the instance, which I found really really hard! He also said that it's important to contact with the lips, not the jaw, so pulling a horse into a frame is wrong, which I think we know. He had us lifting our reins so the (very slight) pressure was on the corner of the mouth, which worked beautifully. And then of course lower the reins to neutral as soon as there was a response. Also - circles, circles to slow and balance the horse rather than pulling back.

Stupid link won't work, sorry
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I’d love more of your impressions of the Isaac clinic, it’s on my wish list for the future.
 
Your original post with Lottie and Joe came up when I was searching for something else recently @Ambers Echo & because you've been posting a lot recently I had a good read. There's a lot in there on how he got Lottie to lighten in the contact for jumping which is interesting and pertinent to this thread. When he rode her for you it took him some time to lighten her up and there were some really good tips that I may have stolen for riding the microcob yesterday.

Like Maya said above I do think contact changes over time. My aspiration is to a light consistent contact and I can see from videos as a 5yo to nearly 8 that my contact has got more consistent the more balanced the hooligan has got. I took quite a big step away from the 'leg to hand' riding when he was 6-ish because I felt I was chasing forward a pony who was normally forward going but seemed to back off in a school. I had some of the Ritter exercises and found slowly turning through squares, diamonds etc actually allowed him to understand where his legs were and build strength. With that strength he naturally became more forward in the school and that meant the contact was more even. I do think we have what Joe describes as a brace at times - there is more contact than Joe would think ideal - but now we have straightness and rhythm we can concentrate on taking the weight behind and then I think the contact will change again.

If I can work out how to cut and paste bits of Youtube videos then trot work from my e-riders submission at 5 versus 8 is actually quite interesting! Although somehow I need to stop my legs flapping around.
 
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GinaGeo said:
I wonder if the slobber straps are having an impact in all this.

Joe rides in slobber straps, they will add a weight in the rein for both horse and rider. And the western rope reins are heavier.

The horse will be experiencing a security even without a strong contact.

Whereas our English leather reins are lighter and will flop about unhelpfully and inconsistently without some sort of a contact.

The slobber straps also allow that removal of weight from the rein to be a cue as well. It’s a very different style.
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I do agree re slobber straps however split reins for higher levels horses do tend to be leather. I ride with rope reins and they are lighter and floppier imo than my leather reins.
 
That's interesting @SEL

I agree contact changes over time. But I also think that from day 1, the 2 broad approaches are different and that riding 'lighter' is not just the end point that starts with a firmer contact. Lottie is a good example actually because she was already 8 when I got her - a mature horse with a fairly successful competion record. She weighed a tonne in the hand! She'd never have got soft just carrying on as she was. It needed a radical change of direction. And in fact the changes were so profound it has led me to ride with Joe ever since. And now I have Myka who was backed by Joe and would probably flip over backwards if I ever put as much pressure on her head as Lottie happily tolerated.

I'll be interested to see what E-riders makes of her next week when the results come out.

The other aspect I've been thinking about recently is that Myka will in all likelihood be sold once Mylo is up and running and will probably be ridden in more of a contact. So I am now experimenting with just mixing and matching: Sometimes firmer, sometimes lighter. She seems ok with that! Which means I can just have more contact for jumping which is what is expected by those instructors, and carry on playing around with as light as possibe for flatwork. I aspire to bridleless!

I missed the comment above about slobber straps and heavier reins. Yes, very possibly! I believe @Fibones uses slobber straps with English tack, presumably so that picking up the rein = more connection even with a drape in the rein. But she can correct me if that's not right.

Also missed the Sudbrooke lesson post. @Hackback that sounds awesome.
 
Ambers Echo said:
That's interesting @SEL

I agree contact changes over time. But I also think that from day 1, the 2 broad approaches are different and that riding 'lighter' is not just the end point that starts with a firmer contact. Lottie is a good example actually because she was already 8 when I got her - a mature horse with a fairly successful competion record. She weighed a tonne in the hand! She'd never have got soft just carrying on as she was. It needed a radical change of direction. And in fact the changes were so profound it has led me to ride with Joe ever since. And now I have Myka who was backed by Joe and would probably flip over backwards if I ever put as much pressure on her head as Lottie happily tolerated.

I'll be interested to see what E-riders makes of her next week when the results come out.

The other aspect I've been thinking about recently is that Myka will in all likelihood be sold once Mylo is up and running and will probably be ridden in more of a contact. So I am now experimenting with just mixing and matching: Sometimes firmer, sometimes lighter. She seems ok with that! Which means I can just have more contact for jumping which is what is expected by those instructors, and carry on playing around with as light as possibe for flatwork. I aspire to bridleless!

I missed the comment above about slobber straps and heavier reins. Yes, very possibly! I believe @Fibones uses slobber straps with English tack, presumably so that picking up the rein = more connection even with a drape in the rein. But she can correct me if that's not right.

Also missed the Sudbrooke lesson post. @Hackback that sounds awesome.
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Hi! Yes slobber straps act as a pre cue so it lightens things up if they connect to it first as the ‘good deal’ or the ‘whisper’. If not the rein picks up.

I’ve moved back to a clip on rein temporarily as I had to get bridling better and all the rope reins and ‘get down’ rope just got in the way of it being a quiet simple process. So I shifted to just the headstall , removed the reins completely , broke it all down into simple steps and she’s great now so I’ll shift back at some point.
 
Fibones said:
Hi! Yes slobber straps act as a pre cue so it lightens things up if they connect to it first as the ‘good deal’ or the ‘whisper’. If not the rein picks up.

I’ve moved back to a clip on rein temporarily as I had to get bridling better and all the rope reins and ‘get down’ rope just got in the way of it being a quiet simple process. So I shifted to just the headstall , removed the reins completely , broke it all down into simple steps and she’s great now so I’ll shift back at some point.
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I find in English tack that a leverage bit works in a similar way. Middle ring on a Dutch gag gives me response to the slightest twitch of the rein. I can be one handed, reins dangling, wrangling a young pony with my weight all over the place - light my hand an inch or less and my pony responds. Snaffle? Nope. Doesn’t work the same!
 
smolmaus said:
Levers amplifying force is why levers were invented.
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In a Dutch gag, raising the rein an inch (holding in one hand, loops near the buckle), turns the ring. Just a little. The bit twitches. There is something to feel as a signal, a movement before pressure. I would say there is pressure on the head stall but there isn’t really - especially if you have no bridle path cut and the cheek pieces aren’t tight.

The point I was making wasn’t about more power. It was about giving other options for signals. The slobber straps with their weight. The slight rotation of the ring. Something changes.
 
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