Contact Query

I think its a tricky Q as both ways have merit and neither are wrong. I agree it is definitely dependant on the horse and what training they have had.

Topaz is much better leg to hand, she is insecure and likes the lead and support, but equally most of the higher level dressage work with her was still by seat and legs rather than the hand, but she needed to contact there to reach into. Skylla hates the feeling of being constrained so she much prefers a very light touch, but she is far more independent and bold.
 
VRIN said:
As Joe is your primary trainer currently why don't you ask him what his thoughts are??
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I have. He has explained why he rides as he does. And some of what he views as the potential problems with leg into hand. He and Sophie were very well aligned though and he accepts that done as a route to self carriage it is fine. But does not think many riders do that, but ride with a strong contact all the time.

He also says he is confident in teaching Western and dressage. And while he does jump Remy and changes nothing about how he rides when he jumps him, he does not want to advise me on XC riding.

Plus I wanted to hear from people actively positive about leg-into-hand not just from someone who does not ride that way.

His basic advice though was get her good enough and no-one will ever question my contact! Much like others upthread have said. It's getting from where I am to that lovely place of trainers just never mentioning contact to me that is my holy grail quest!!
 
LadyGascoyne said:
How is your core strength? My hands improve when my core is stable enough for me to be able to let my shoulders and elbows move with the horse without it affecting my stability and my seat. For me, I always think about the concept of carrying my hands because the softness doesn't come from the hand but from the way my arms support my hands to move with the horse. I have no idea how much sense any of that makes.
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Yes, core strength and control massively helps as does being able to maintain soft, elastic elbows in the right position - that can makes hands much more neutral/carrying of the contact rather than being twitchy which is what can happen if it is only the hands that are directing contact, flexion etc. I really like checking the sense of contact with another person (my instructor!) as that really helps to reveal inconsistency, twitchiness and other issues. It's always better with better core control.
 
When in high school with my pony, I was taught to ride him into the hand. That did create a pony who was possible to control and looked nice, but with no relaxation. This was a very hot pony who would solve things by running (not near bolting, just being very heavy to brake). Most horses aren't as much as he was.

Leg to hand is still a method I use occasionally, to get a tense horse past something scary and solve a situation. Having the experience of actually passing the scary thing without stopping makes it much easier to continue and also build relaxation, in my experience. Still, I think the other method is generally to prefer. I don't ideally want any 'contact' on the bit on a schooled horse. I give the aids, sometimes including the bit, but then I want there to be no pressure again. This seems more aligned with the classical and western riding, which I use a combination of, depending on the specific horse. I don't jump much but when I did, I had the same method. The best equipages I know are also very light in the hand and with very little/no constant pressure in the bit, including show jumpers and eventers. They guide the horse by mostly the seat, but occasionally the rein, and the horse is trained to in a relaxed way follow that. Those are pleasant to see.
 
I can only comment from a dressage point of view which might not be helpful it you are jumping.

The first approach for me is fine for young horses or horses in the early part of their training to find their own balance and self carriage, ridden like it for too long can result in them being on the forehand. They can be on the forehand and still in self carriage, but might not be the balance or level of self carriage required to move up the levels, what I would want to aim for is the horse over time gradually learning to take the weight back and come lighter on the forehand.

Leg to hand does not mean they have to be in a strong contact, it can be light in the hand once the horse has learned to take the centre of gravity further back, once the horse has learned how to respond to a half halt in the correct way, every half halt makes the horse lighter on the forehand and lighter in the hand, although still working to the contact in an elastic way. Some horses will be stronger than others through the learning phase. The stronger the horse gets behind the longer he can hold his balance in a more uphill way, in the learning stage he will only hold it for a few strides at a time, through this time he will need help from all your aids every few strides, then as he is more able to stay where you have put him the half halt will still be there but less often and more from your body than your hand.

Hope that makes sense.
 
j1ffy said:
I'm another who is interested in this thread but not sure I have the answer! I really enjoyed reading this post 👆🏻. I was thinking along similar lines in dressage when watching Justin Verboomen and his chestnut horse, Djembe de Hus, recently - he is able to do a beautifully accurate GP test with comparatively long reins and soft contact, which is something we all aspire to but is incredibly hard to achieve and us mere mortals (and in fact most international dressage riders) need a stronger contact to gain the level of control needed. Obviously I'm only at AM not GP and that's hard enough!

AE you are so considered and work through every potential pitfall and positive, I'm sure you will get the balance right for Myka and listen to her along the way.
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I’m glad someone else likes the way he rides, I am a big fan , I’ve hated the forceful dressage riding which has been getting high marks while the softer ridden less flamboyant horses have been marked unfairly IMO….

I’m not at all qualified to add to this debate but I will say, if you have a youngster from the beginning it’s much easier and better to do the light contact route ifyou can but that may be more difficult when you are jumping a young horse at the start as I think they sometimes feel more confident if they have a slightly stronger contact . Asi now don’t ride its great to watch your progress with Myka so please keep posting
 
Ambers Echo said:
It’s interesting you have a jump trainer using approach 1. Does he/she explain why they prefer that? I’ve only ever come across it in the more Western trainers though I think some classical (??) dressage is taught that way too. I’d love to find a good SJ or XC trainer who taught that way so I can have consistent advice. But haven’t found one yet! And I’m not ditching Joe. So I need to find a way to somehow use both. Or at least blend them a bit. Or get Myka so connected, round and adjustable that they don’t need to try and correct that.
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Her theory is that we teach him to develop his own confidence, rather than taking it from me, and also that he has full freedom to use his head/neck as wants .
 
Skib said:
our RI compared it to cradling a tiny chick in ones cupped hands.
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I love this - this is the feel I instinctively aim for, but I have been told by different coaches that a bag of sugar in each hand is what to aim for !!!! ( I no longer ue these coaches....)
 
CoachinaCar said:
The first approach for me is fine for young horses or horses in the early part of their training to find their own balance and self carriage, ridden like it for too long can result in them being on the forehand. They can be on the forehand and still in self carriage, but might not be the balance or level of self carriage required to move up the levels, what I would want to aim for is the horse over time gradually learning to take the weight back and come lighter on the forehand.
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This is a good point and one I've been thinking about with my own youngster. I moved towards a more classical approach with my previous horse. I'm now starting again with an EdL trainer and it's hurting my brain! I think you need to know what exercises to use to get a horse off the forehand, whilst giving it freedom through the rein. It's been eye opening for me seeing how much lateral work and counter bend the classical people use early on. Whereas in my experience, approach 2 wouldn't bring that in until much later...

Being very provocative, I might say what is jumping but flatwork over obstacles?! I've done some jump coach training recently and the takeaway was it's all about line and stride adjustability. My regular trainer said if you go to a jump clinic with a non-classical instructor then you need to translate what they're telling you! I.e if they say more hand, then think about what it is they're seeing that makes them say that... And sort that problem out in a way that makes sense with your training philosophy.
 
Yes I think the key is being able to adjust without rein aids. I’ve been practicing with that in walk and trot. On the right rein she stays quite soft and consistent on a super light rein, on the left she leans on the bit. She’s a lot less balanced on the left so I presume as that improves she will lighten on the left. If I can adjust her canter on the way to a fence with body position and seat, keeping a forward hand, surely no instructor would have an issue with that.
 
Really interesting question. I'm coming from the perspective as someone who backs and produced lots of young horses over the years.
I think a lot of this comes down to what the contact is teaching the horse, especially with young horses.

For young horses in particular, I think there’s real value in a clear, elastic contact that the horse seeks, so they learn to confidently take you to the fence and find their own stride. Not heavy or restrictive, but present enough that the hand is a place of balance and reassurance. That connection helps straightness on the approach and prevents chipping in, or leaving the rider behind.

I’ve seen horses ridden very lightly early on that look soft, but are actually a bit behind the hand rather than confidently going into it, as they are still young and developing their balance, so the 'yield' can end up with the horse behind the contact. That can work ok on the flat, but over fences it shows up as hesitation, inconsistency and a wobbly approach. I do wonder if this is part of the cultural divide, as many western/NH riders don’t jump much, so there’s less emphasis on developing a contact and canter that takes you to the fence; in my experience, its this forward canter that helps a horse find their own stride if you aren't someone with a super accurate eye (I'm not!) and crucially helps them develop their fifth leg when jumping cross-country.

That said, I don’t see these as totally opposing systems, it’s still leg creating energy, hand receiving it, seat balancing.
However, for horses learning to jump, I’d teach them first to go forward into the hand and confidently find the fence, then lighten the contact later down the line once they truly understand their job.
 
Was thinking about this when schooling Fin the other day. Hermosa does whatever the hell one does in the hackamore (who knows...not me, most of the time), but Fin goes in a snaffle like a normal English trained horse. We mostly use the legetere method, separation of aids into light contact, yadda, yadda, but because he's a spooky sort, I sometimes use a driving leg to hand when he goes into giraffe mood to try to get his attention and stop him from skittering off somewhere.
 
Enjoying the discussion on this and something in my own mind as I try to work out what the heck my plan is with the the current youngster as although I don’t currently plan on doing anything serious in terms of sitting on him until NEXT year I guess my eventual plans ought to vaguely inform what I’m doing with him.

Have been taught several variations on method 2 but the idea of method 1 does intrigue me I just kinda lack someone close by to support going down that road in person.

I do think that different activities can require a slightly different contact and that you probably are going to want a slightly different feeling down the reins going XC vs working on the flat or SJ or even something like hunting tbh just because of the unique questions asked and how quickly you might need a response / the minute adjustments you might need to make whilst travelling at speed
 
We’ll I’ve injured my ribs and discovered riding today that any pressure down the rein is painful. So I focused on staying soft and light through transitions, circles and serpentines. She gave me lovely work on the right rein but leans more on the left where she’s less balanced. I need to get video though to make sure what I think I’m feeling is actually correct work. It feels fab though! She feels floaty and is very responsive up and down.
 
More musings on this. I recently read this on a dressage page discussing classical, vaquero and modern traditions. More or less saying (I think) that ALL dressage should train self carriage but many modern trainers don't. In her view. And then this bit which I found interesting:

Self-carriage is not defined by rein length, but by what happens when the rein is removed.

A horse can be on a drape and not in self-carriage
A horse can be on a contact and be in self-carriage

Does any truly correct approach say the horse should be continually 'held' with a firm contact? If not then why is teaching people to ride like that so common?

Myka now maintains a more or less consistent frame on a light contact and if I give the contact away nothing changes for a while, then she might lose balance or speed up/slow down. So unless I am kidding myself, I think we are making progress in the right direction. For what I hope to achieve with her anyway.
 
Ambers Echo said:
More musings on this. I recently read this on a dressage page discussing classical, vaquero and modern traditions. More or less saying (I think) that ALL dressage should train self carriage but many modern trainers don't. In her view. And then this bit which I found interesting:

Self-carriage is not defined by rein length, but by what happens when the rein is removed.

A horse can be on a drape and not in self-carriage
A horse can be on a contact and be in self-carriage

Does any truly correct approach say the horse should be continually 'held' with a firm contact? If not then why is teaching people to ride like that so common?

Myka now maintains a more or less consistent frame on a light contact and if I give the contact away nothing changes for a while, then she might lose balance or speed up/slow down. So unless I am kidding myself, I think we are making progress in the right direction. For what I hope to achieve with her anyway.
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Your posts are always so interesting.

I think we can get trapped (particularly in dressage) in the logical fallacy that the horse isn't strong enough (yet) so we should hold it together to produce the shape. And of course, the more we hold the horse, the more the horse leans, and the horse might get stronger but it doesn't get lighter.

I just looked back at one of the notes I took after a master class with Gareth Hughes:

Gareth talks about the difference between ‘guiding’ and ‘holding’. Guiding a horse is where we want to be. We want to use technique over strength to ride. The difficulty with horses who have been trained by being held is that the more they develop, the stronger they become and therefore the more strength you need to hold them. That is going in the opposite direction of what we are trying to achieve in dressage. When we guide the horse rather than hold the horse, this is what develops self-carriage in the horse. It is that self-carriage without relying on the human to balance the horse that gives you the ability to do things like “give and retake”.

I think a lot of people look at the symptoms rather than train to improve the root cause. I probably fall into the trap too - getting too concerned with things like inconsistency in contact or falling behind the vertical and looking to improve that so that things optically look better but are probably just resulting in a better horse from the pole forward rather than from the core and thoracic sling. Not to say that I don't try to do a lot of work to strengthen the horse properly, but I probably want to quieten the things that make the picture less harmonious more quickly than if they were the last thing to come through from truly strengthening the horse and having the horse find its own balance and self carriage. Thought provoking.
 
Contact is a huge subject, you could probably write a book on it, every rider and every horse brings their personal preferences to the contact. I totally agree with guiding rather than holding, and thats why when you are schooling you should be doing give and retakes in every pace, every time. The strength to hold self carriage and a good outline takes time, and it doesnt have to be perfect along the way, we dont expect a human gymnast to be perfect from the start, so why should the horse always be perfect? I'd rather focus on fixing the cause and not worry about what it looks like in the short term.

My mare when she arrived felt very nice in the contact, soft, consistent and elastic, and when I did give and retakes in trot she was perfect, but when I did them in canter she fell apart, either dropping to trot, or shooting off, which just shows that even when the contact feels good it can still mask many problems. In her defence, she was young and very green in her work, and her canter was extremely big with a ridiculously powerful hind leg and she just didnt understand who to balance herself without a contact.

So I went back to groundwork to fix it, teaching her how to move her body weight without moving her feet, and other exercises so she built both strength and understanding of how to balance her own body. It didnt take long before she was very comfortable with a give and retake in canter where nothing changed because she had started to learn how to manage herself and develop self carriage, of course this is an ongoing thing throughout every horses training, but you have to start the right way in order to be able to build from good foundations.
 
Thanks so much for the replies. I’m learning how much I still have to learn!

To my limited eye, test riding and true principles of dressage seem misaligned. Contact seems quite strong in tests I watch. Tension/bracing isn’t marked down. Give and retake is max 3-4 strides in tests which doesn’t seem much a of a test of self carriage.

Perhaps if tests were structured and scored differently, teaching would change?
 
Agree that contact is such a complex and fascinating subject.
For me, riding into a contact is not the same as holding a horse in a frame. Self-carriage still comes from the seat and overall balance/connection; the hand just receives the energy. Giving the rein is important, but that doesn’t mean that quiet, consistent connection down the rein shouldn’t exist.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Thanks so much for the replies. I’m learning how much I still have to learn!

To my limited eye, test riding and true principles of dressage seem misaligned. Contact seems quite strong in tests I watch. Tension/bracing isn’t marked down. Give and retake is max 3-4 strides in tests which doesn’t seem much a of a test of self carriage.

Perhaps if tests were structured and scored differently, teaching would change?
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I think 3/4 strides is fine, this is at novice level, it's the beginning of the training journey, I'd perhaps like to see it more frequently, but not for longer.
If a person had just started doing press ups you wouldn't expect them to do twenty in a row with perfect posture and strength. You'd ask for two or three and build it up gradually, it's the same for a horse.
At home with a novice horse I wouldn't do it for any longer, but I'll do it multiple times, so you can keep resetting and rebalancing the horse before you ask again, so hopefully you build strength in a good posture and balance.
 
Ambers Echo said:
I agree 3-4 strides is fine for novice level but is it any longer in advanced tests?
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It doesn't feature in more advanced tests.
Which I believe is a mistake, people like Kyra Kirkland and Carl Hester are asking for give and retake to be included in the GP, I think that would be a brilliant development.
 
Ambers Echo said:
Thanks so much for the replies. I’m learning how much I still have to learn!

To my limited eye, test riding and true principles of dressage seem misaligned. Contact seems quite strong in tests I watch. Tension/bracing isn’t marked down. Give and retake is max 3-4 strides in tests which doesn’t seem much a of a test of self carriage.

Perhaps if tests were structured and scored differently, teaching would change?
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I can't remember where I read recently (maybe here, maybe somewhere on FB) but someone said somewhere that competitive dressage is "sport" dressage and not classical dressage. Been mulling on it. Interesting take.
 
I'm booked on a clinic in April with Guy Robertson and Isaac Ares Rio. It's a WE clinic but Isaac seems to focus on classical dressage. I know nothing about him, other than he's highly regarded by some FB friends, but reading up on his experience and philosophy is interesting - this, on his website, is quite relevant to this discussion

The Guide

www.dressage-isaac.com www.dressage-isaac.com
 
So much of this is what are you training a horse for?

The basics of any horse's training are the ability to carry themselves with back lifted and hind legs under, shifting some of the weight off the front legs to even it out, at all times - with the aim to minimise the strain of carrying a human and therefore maximise their healthy working life.

Beyond that though, you train for what you want that horse to do. One job or many.

My mare for example:
- 'helper mode': usually no contact, often just a finger through the reins while I wrestle a just learning youngster or tricky older pony I am leading...or sort out a child or gate or whatever. They're expected to keep their backs up and hind legs under enough, but I'm not fussy about head carriage beyond low enough to allow them to move correctly enough for their own wellbeing. I need them to actively help me and pilot themselves with a whisper of direction from me.
- 'dressage' mode. When I put two hands on the reins and shorten them enough for a conventional contact, then put my leg on, they know it's time to engage more, to tuck their noses in a bit more; to be ready for lateral work and circles and all that. The amount of weight in the contact varies in the moment and on the level of training. There is a point for example when you achieve enough 'oomph' behind that the weight in your hand increases from their end. In different stages of training it feels different. They tend to go heavier while learning new things; then lighter when the muscle has built. You have to be prepared for change and adjustments as they learn, progress, muscle up.
- 'jumping mode' (different pony now but I did once have it all in one equine!): bouncier, taking me forwards, sitting on the hocks more, totally different feel through the hands. Kind of simultaneously lighter and more holding than the dressage feeling. Lighter because they're sitting up more, holding - holding them in that 'up', sitting feeling so you keep the correct gait. Then of course the release over the fence - which in itself depends on level of training. In a youngster I'll give completely, because they mess up and over jump and knock things and I really don't want the experience to be unpleasant for them, ever. With a more established horse I'd keep a light contact through the extension.

How do they learn? Time and practice and consequences.
 
smolmaus said:
I can't remember where I read recently (maybe here, maybe somewhere on FB) but someone said somewhere that competitive dressage is "sport" dressage and not classical dressage. Been mulling on it. Interesting take.
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Many classically trained riders don't compete in the UK for that reason I'm told.

I have the odd lesson with a classical instructor (Portuguese trained) & the focus is very different from the "leg to hand" type instruction at clinics which are predominantly BHS trained.

We can spend 45 minutes in walk and have an exhausted coblet.
 
SEL said:
Many classically trained riders don't compete in the UK for that reason I'm told.

I have the odd lesson with a classical instructor (Portuguese trained) & the focus is very different from the "leg to hand" type instruction at clinics which are predominantly BHS trained.

We can spend 45 minutes in walk and have an exhausted coblet.
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I think walk work is so underrated. There are so many horses I see out with so much polish in trot and canter but walk has been completely overlooked.
 
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