VRIN
Well-Known Member
As Joe is your primary trainer currently why don't you ask him what his thoughts are??
Contact Query
- Thread starter Ambers Echo
- Start date
HufflyPuffly
Well-Known Member
I think its a tricky Q as both ways have merit and neither are wrong. I agree it is definitely dependant on the horse and what training they have had.
Topaz is much better leg to hand, she is insecure and likes the lead and support, but equally most of the higher level dressage work with her was still by seat and legs rather than the hand, but she needed to contact there to reach into. Skylla hates the feeling of being constrained so she much prefers a very light touch, but she is far more independent and bold.
Topaz is much better leg to hand, she is insecure and likes the lead and support, but equally most of the higher level dressage work with her was still by seat and legs rather than the hand, but she needed to contact there to reach into. Skylla hates the feeling of being constrained so she much prefers a very light touch, but she is far more independent and bold.
NR88
Well-Known Member
He appears to be riding more English horses too.
Hackback
Well-Known Member
Joe is doing a demo in Yorkshire in April, which includes both Western and Dressage horses if anyone is interested. No doubt he will be discussing the topic then
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I have. He has explained why he rides as he does. And some of what he views as the potential problems with leg into hand. He and Sophie were very well aligned though and he accepts that done as a route to self carriage it is fine. But does not think many riders do that, but ride with a strong contact all the time.
He also says he is confident in teaching Western and dressage. And while he does jump Remy and changes nothing about how he rides when he jumps him, he does not want to advise me on XC riding.
Plus I wanted to hear from people actively positive about leg-into-hand not just from someone who does not ride that way.
His basic advice though was get her good enough and no-one will ever question my contact! Much like others upthread have said. It's getting from where I am to that lovely place of trainers just never mentioning contact to me that is my holy grail quest!!
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, core strength and control massively helps as does being able to maintain soft, elastic elbows in the right position - that can makes hands much more neutral/carrying of the contact rather than being twitchy which is what can happen if it is only the hands that are directing contact, flexion etc. I really like checking the sense of contact with another person (my instructor!) as that really helps to reveal inconsistency, twitchiness and other issues. It's always better with better core control.
Korg
Well-Known Member
When in high school with my pony, I was taught to ride him into the hand. That did create a pony who was possible to control and looked nice, but with no relaxation. This was a very hot pony who would solve things by running (not near bolting, just being very heavy to brake). Most horses aren't as much as he was.
Leg to hand is still a method I use occasionally, to get a tense horse past something scary and solve a situation. Having the experience of actually passing the scary thing without stopping makes it much easier to continue and also build relaxation, in my experience. Still, I think the other method is generally to prefer. I don't ideally want any 'contact' on the bit on a schooled horse. I give the aids, sometimes including the bit, but then I want there to be no pressure again. This seems more aligned with the classical and western riding, which I use a combination of, depending on the specific horse. I don't jump much but when I did, I had the same method. The best equipages I know are also very light in the hand and with very little/no constant pressure in the bit, including show jumpers and eventers. They guide the horse by mostly the seat, but occasionally the rein, and the horse is trained to in a relaxed way follow that. Those are pleasant to see.
Leg to hand is still a method I use occasionally, to get a tense horse past something scary and solve a situation. Having the experience of actually passing the scary thing without stopping makes it much easier to continue and also build relaxation, in my experience. Still, I think the other method is generally to prefer. I don't ideally want any 'contact' on the bit on a schooled horse. I give the aids, sometimes including the bit, but then I want there to be no pressure again. This seems more aligned with the classical and western riding, which I use a combination of, depending on the specific horse. I don't jump much but when I did, I had the same method. The best equipages I know are also very light in the hand and with very little/no constant pressure in the bit, including show jumpers and eventers. They guide the horse by mostly the seat, but occasionally the rein, and the horse is trained to in a relaxed way follow that. Those are pleasant to see.
CoachinaCar
Well-Known Member
I can only comment from a dressage point of view which might not be helpful it you are jumping.
The first approach for me is fine for young horses or horses in the early part of their training to find their own balance and self carriage, ridden like it for too long can result in them being on the forehand. They can be on the forehand and still in self carriage, but might not be the balance or level of self carriage required to move up the levels, what I would want to aim for is the horse over time gradually learning to take the weight back and come lighter on the forehand.
Leg to hand does not mean they have to be in a strong contact, it can be light in the hand once the horse has learned to take the centre of gravity further back, once the horse has learned how to respond to a half halt in the correct way, every half halt makes the horse lighter on the forehand and lighter in the hand, although still working to the contact in an elastic way. Some horses will be stronger than others through the learning phase. The stronger the horse gets behind the longer he can hold his balance in a more uphill way, in the learning stage he will only hold it for a few strides at a time, through this time he will need help from all your aids every few strides, then as he is more able to stay where you have put him the half halt will still be there but less often and more from your body than your hand.
Hope that makes sense.
The first approach for me is fine for young horses or horses in the early part of their training to find their own balance and self carriage, ridden like it for too long can result in them being on the forehand. They can be on the forehand and still in self carriage, but might not be the balance or level of self carriage required to move up the levels, what I would want to aim for is the horse over time gradually learning to take the weight back and come lighter on the forehand.
Leg to hand does not mean they have to be in a strong contact, it can be light in the hand once the horse has learned to take the centre of gravity further back, once the horse has learned how to respond to a half halt in the correct way, every half halt makes the horse lighter on the forehand and lighter in the hand, although still working to the contact in an elastic way. Some horses will be stronger than others through the learning phase. The stronger the horse gets behind the longer he can hold his balance in a more uphill way, in the learning stage he will only hold it for a few strides at a time, through this time he will need help from all your aids every few strides, then as he is more able to stay where you have put him the half halt will still be there but less often and more from your body than your hand.
Hope that makes sense.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I'm another who is interested in this thread but not sure I have the answer! I really enjoyed reading this post. I was thinking along similar lines in dressage when watching Justin Verboomen and his chestnut horse, Djembe de Hus, recently - he is able to do a beautifully accurate GP test with comparatively long reins and soft contact, which is something we all aspire to but is incredibly hard to achieve and us mere mortals (and in fact most international dressage riders) need a stronger contact to gain the level of control needed. Obviously I'm only at AM not GP and that's hard enough!
AE you are so considered and work through every potential pitfall and positive, I'm sure you will get the balance right for Myka and listen to her along the way.
I’m glad someone else likes the way he rides, I am a big fan , I’ve hated the forceful dressage riding which has been getting high marks while the softer ridden less flamboyant horses have been marked unfairly IMO….
I’m not at all qualified to add to this debate but I will say, if you have a youngster from the beginning it’s much easier and better to do the light contact route ifyou can but that may be more difficult when you are jumping a young horse at the start as I think they sometimes feel more confident if they have a slightly stronger contact . Asi now don’t ride its great to watch your progress with Myka so please keep posting
Cragrat
Well-Known Member
Her theory is that we teach him to develop his own confidence, rather than taking it from me, and also that he has full freedom to use his head/neck as wants .
Cragrat
Well-Known Member
I love this - this is the feel I instinctively aim for, but I have been told by different coaches that a bag of sugar in each hand is what to aim for !!!! ( I no longer ue these coaches....)
Foxford
Well-Known Member
This is a good point and one I've been thinking about with my own youngster. I moved towards a more classical approach with my previous horse. I'm now starting again with an EdL trainer and it's hurting my brain! I think you need to know what exercises to use to get a horse off the forehand, whilst giving it freedom through the rein. It's been eye opening for me seeing how much lateral work and counter bend the classical people use early on. Whereas in my experience, approach 2 wouldn't bring that in until much later...
Being very provocative, I might say what is jumping but flatwork over obstacles?! I've done some jump coach training recently and the takeaway was it's all about line and stride adjustability. My regular trainer said if you go to a jump clinic with a non-classical instructor then you need to translate what they're telling you! I.e if they say more hand, then think about what it is they're seeing that makes them say that... And sort that problem out in a way that makes sense with your training philosophy.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
Yes I think the key is being able to adjust without rein aids. I’ve been practicing with that in walk and trot. On the right rein she stays quite soft and consistent on a super light rein, on the left she leans on the bit. She’s a lot less balanced on the left so I presume as that improves she will lighten on the left. If I can adjust her canter on the way to a fence with body position and seat, keeping a forward hand, surely no instructor would have an issue with that.
foxy1
Well-Known Member
Really interesting question. I'm coming from the perspective as someone who backs and produced lots of young horses over the years.
I think a lot of this comes down to what the contact is teaching the horse, especially with young horses.
For young horses in particular, I think there’s real value in a clear, elastic contact that the horse seeks, so they learn to confidently take you to the fence and find their own stride. Not heavy or restrictive, but present enough that the hand is a place of balance and reassurance. That connection helps straightness on the approach and prevents chipping in, or leaving the rider behind.
I’ve seen horses ridden very lightly early on that look soft, but are actually a bit behind the hand rather than confidently going into it, as they are still young and developing their balance, so the 'yield' can end up with the horse behind the contact. That can work ok on the flat, but over fences it shows up as hesitation, inconsistency and a wobbly approach. I do wonder if this is part of the cultural divide, as many western/NH riders don’t jump much, so there’s less emphasis on developing a contact and canter that takes you to the fence; in my experience, its this forward canter that helps a horse find their own stride if you aren't someone with a super accurate eye (I'm not!) and crucially helps them develop their fifth leg when jumping cross-country.
That said, I don’t see these as totally opposing systems, it’s still leg creating energy, hand receiving it, seat balancing.
However, for horses learning to jump, I’d teach them first to go forward into the hand and confidently find the fence, then lighten the contact later down the line once they truly understand their job.
I think a lot of this comes down to what the contact is teaching the horse, especially with young horses.
For young horses in particular, I think there’s real value in a clear, elastic contact that the horse seeks, so they learn to confidently take you to the fence and find their own stride. Not heavy or restrictive, but present enough that the hand is a place of balance and reassurance. That connection helps straightness on the approach and prevents chipping in, or leaving the rider behind.
I’ve seen horses ridden very lightly early on that look soft, but are actually a bit behind the hand rather than confidently going into it, as they are still young and developing their balance, so the 'yield' can end up with the horse behind the contact. That can work ok on the flat, but over fences it shows up as hesitation, inconsistency and a wobbly approach. I do wonder if this is part of the cultural divide, as many western/NH riders don’t jump much, so there’s less emphasis on developing a contact and canter that takes you to the fence; in my experience, its this forward canter that helps a horse find their own stride if you aren't someone with a super accurate eye (I'm not!) and crucially helps them develop their fifth leg when jumping cross-country.
That said, I don’t see these as totally opposing systems, it’s still leg creating energy, hand receiving it, seat balancing.
However, for horses learning to jump, I’d teach them first to go forward into the hand and confidently find the fence, then lighten the contact later down the line once they truly understand their job.