Dressage Controversial discussion alert! Do you think judges over inflate 'famous' rider scores?

[ycbm]

yes it's interesting isn't it because often you see people saying not to practice your tests because the horse might anticipate the movements. But the only way you really e.g. nail a turn onto the CL time after time is to practice it! you only learn the muscle memory of riding the moves by doing them, and often the way they link together in a particular test will affect how they ride, so just being able to produce a 8m circle is one thing, but producing one from the CL after a shoulder-in is another thing entirely!

I was always advised if your horse anticipates to learn small parts but change where the choice of which parts start and finish. So for movements abcde, for example, you practice abc one day, bcd the next time and cde the third time.
.

 

[paddi22]

the dressage hub lady is absolutely toxic, an awful woman.

 

[shortstuff99]

I only shared this video as it wasn't actually made by dressage hub but just shared by them, I did try and find the original.

Thought it might make an interesting debate either way.

 

[YorkshireLady]

such good advice as well there MP in relation to not feeding troll

 

[tatty_v]

I’ve only ever competed unaffiliated, but I’ve generally had really positive experiences with judges. I try and get my test videoed as usually if I watch it back with the comments, they’re justified.

I do get a bit of a twinge of disappointment in our medium trots - to me the difference feels really noticeable, but we never really get marks acknowledging that. I guess the “feel” is more dramatic than the actual action!

I also sometimes feel that the marks should have a bit more variation - a sheet of 6.5s is a bit disheartening when I feel that some bits have gone really well and some not so well. Although the one day I got a 9 for a turn across the school felt a bit generous ?

 

[tristar]

Side controversial alert, sorry the video is via dressage hub.

Werth recently competed Bella Rose for the first time in 18 months winning the GP special with over 80%, however the test really wasn't that good with a lot of errors. This brings up the discussion of do judges sometimes over score famous riders?

I think they sometimes do, whether it is conscious or unconscious I'm not sure of. This is where I think a system of judging like gymnastics of ice skating would help with this.

What are your thoughts?

https://fb.watch/5hk1z8FjAN/

a clip of a horse and rider who look to be not on the same page

bella rose is not a horse i like the look of, type, structure, too fragile looking, iw is a rider i find frankly ugly, her body weight is not poised over the point of balance consistently, and her hands look harsh, although it could be the horse is shifting the balance due to some discomfort and moving her around and she is trying to compensate

how would you feel personally judging that would you have the bxlls to mark it as you really see it?

do you need to ask the question based on that performance?

 

[tristar]

I’ve only ever competed unaffiliated, but I’ve generally had really positive experiences with judges. I try and get my test videoed as usually if I watch it back with the comments, they’re justified.

I do get a bit of a twinge of disappointment in our medium trots - to me the difference feels really noticeable, but we never really get marks acknowledging that. I guess the “feel” is more dramatic than the actual action!

I also sometimes feel that the marks should have a bit more variation - a sheet of 6.5s is a bit disheartening when I feel that some bits have gone really well and some not so well. Although the one day I got a 9 for a turn across the school felt a bit generous ?

if it feels good when you ride it at the lower levels that is what you are looking for, something to build on

 

[Velcrobum]

Having just read this whole thread from start to finish I would like to join in. Firstly there some very very good younger judges who have got to Grade 1 who I think will push some of the old school thinking out. I have been writing both BD and BE for many many years and have seen them develop as they progressed. Yes there are some crap judges out there that will always be the case. I have done a lot of high level BE writing and have seen Olympic riders given 6 for riding. Some years ago Bettina Hoy came up the centre line on Ringwood Cockatoo the test was appalling and marked accordingly with 5s and 6s mainly, this was when they were at the very top. That was sooo disappointing!!

IW is very good and does hoover marks but I sometimes think some judges might give that point 5 where others might not. Another screaming example of strange marking was the "Anky halt". Dressage has moved on in recent years from the tight tense pictures that were frequently the norm and is a more harmonious picture now.

I was for many years a DJ trainee and have learnt so much from training days and writing. I have let that go for the moment but will probably return to it when Covid finally settles down. I can watch Stephen Clarkes judge training videos at home!! The FEI handbook while expensive is worth it for the education and very clear guidance of what should be seen for each mark 0 - 10 for every movement used in dressage tests.

 

[milliepops]

Very good point about the younger judges coming up the lists. I've had some interesting conversations with a couple who definitely seem to be slightly moving away from what's been seen as the status quo, I think it takes a fair bit of guts to do that when you're a newer face but it's what the sport needs to stay forward thinking.

It's a tremendous commitment to work through the training and exams, I have a lot of respect for people who can take that forward. A friend has suggested I make a start but I'd really struggle to make the time for it.

 

[Cowpony]

I hesitate to join in because all these riders are waaaaay better than I will ever achieve, but I went to the dressage at Windsor a couple of years ago when Carl was competing. Both I and my friend thought another horse did a much better test, but was beaten by Carl, and we did come away feeling that the judges had rewarded the "known" rider. Now, that may just mean that we didn't know enough about which movements scored what, or what the judges were looking for. And of course we weren't sitting where the judges were.

 

[sbloom]

I care slightly less about the rewarding of names (which I do think is slightly unavoidable, though clearly it's barely statistically significant if the research is right, I didn't look at the link ycbm posted) than the prioritisation in judging prevalent in recent decades. I don't have a copy of the FEI guidelines but I do know that harmony, and purity of paces, are supposed to be priorities and that the face of the horse is supposed to be IFV at all times except in piaffe, when it's allowed to come TO the vertical. I think it's a loss to the horse that we have ended up with athleticism and accuracy/submission being valued more.

I wrote a few times for the loveliest judge who trained with the TTT and seemed scrupulously fair and marked WBs and hairies exactly the same, but she only judged up to M I think.

 

[shortstuff99]

If you can find old copies of the FEI dressage rules some of the wording changes are quite interesting as it subtly changes the original definitions/ aims of dressage. However, I don't know if this was done in response to training changes or type of horse changes.

 

[sbloom]

The changes I know of are the change of the head being allowed to come to the vertical in the piaffe, whereas it used to have to be IFV, and the removal of the "rocker" I think it was called, the reinback, walk, reinback, which really was a great test of basic training. Chicken and egg when it comes to training and type of horse.

 

[Muddywellies]

Yes, I think it happens an awful lot.

 

[LEC]

Eurodressage said today that Carl and charlottes scores were inflated and that Carl certainly benefitted from being a name!

‘The trot extensions are truly not expansive enough, not achieving enough overtrack, although Hester has the horse in a nice frame. For your information, no overtrack but nicely presented by a big name rider means 7.0 (or more) with the international panel of judges.’

 

[milliepops]

Its more complex than that but have just looked up a 7.0 for an extended trot in the judging guidelines and it does mention that more overtrack is needed.
?‍

I do not think that Astrid is a particularly unbiased reporter either fwiw...

 

[LEC]

Its more complex than that but have just looked up a 7.0 for an extended trot in the judging guidelines and it does mention that more overtrack is needed.
?‍

I do not think that Astrid is a particularly unbiased reporter either fwiw...

I love Astrids reports as do tend to tell it how it is. I sometimes have a good chuckle.

 

[teapot]

8% difference in Carl's marks today. One of his changes scored 8, 5.5, 5.0, 5.0, 4.5...

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Anyone have a link to this article?

 

[LEC]

Anyone have a link to this article?

Charlotte Dujardin Rises to the Top in 2021 CDI Wellington Grand Prix (eurodressage.com)

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Charlotte Dujardin Rises to the Top in 2021 CDI Wellington Grand Prix (eurodressage.com)

"The trot extensions are truly not expansive enough, not achieving enough overtrack, although Hester has the horse in a nice frame. For your information, no overtrack but nicely presented by a big name rider means 7.0 (or more) with the international panel of judges."

"The test had wonderful bits and some work-in-progress parts. The British judges had the pink glasses on and rewarded the test with 80+%, the Dutch judge was more critical of what was shown and scored it 72.935%."

I suppose these two quotes are the most relevant for the discussion here.

It got me thinking though, I would think that leading up to the Olympics the judges would maintain a highly critical eye. You only want the best of the best there and need to be realistic about scores at home so no one is feeling that they are better than they are, to put it simply.

I'm sure that Carl knows the weaker spots of his test and how to make up for them while he works to improve them though.

 

[milliepops]

I'm sure that Carl knows the weaker spots of his test and how to make up for them while he works to improve them though.

yes he probably didn't need eurodressage to point them out to him first haha.

i think the thing re the judges is possibly just "normal" kind of variation, it's not like a judge won't know who all the international GP riders are just because they are from a different nationality.

 

[Roxylola]

Maybe the higher judges are more confident in awarding higher marks and/or using the full range of marks.
I can see a basically OK extension that's rhythmic in a correct frame etc but without overtrack would be classed as "fairly good"
I have a sheet from an unaffiliated novice test - comment "fantastic centre lines" I got an 8 - "good" I honestly was pretty disappointed the judge had felt they were good enough to comment on but they weren't brave enough to give a higher mark. Id sooner a judge use the full 0 - 10 than give mediocre marks all round

 

[RachelFerd]

Id sooner a judge use the full 0 - 10 than give mediocre marks all round

This is fine until they're judging eventing... at which point some wild dressage judging is creating situations where people could win event with a cricket score in the SJ and XC... but that's a whole other topic that drives me mad!

 

[Roxylola]

This is fine until they're judging eventing... at which point some wild dressage judging is creating situations where people could win event with a cricket score in the SJ and XC... but that's a whole other topic that drives me mad!

A good test is a good test. The recent scores I've seen haven't been the only exceptional ones on the day - I think where there was the 9 there was also an 11 or something. Its still the same judge for the entire section. I'd happily do novice tests (bd or eventing) but we'll never get out of grassroots jumping wise. Maybe that's something that should be reviewed by BE, that you might get a horse at PSG coming jumping an 80 track

 

[LEC]

A good test is a good test. The recent scores I've seen haven't been the only exceptional ones on the day - I think where there was the 9 there was also an 11 or something. Its still the same judge for the entire section. I'd happily do novice tests (bd or eventing) but we'll never get out of grassroots jumping wise. Maybe that's something that should be reviewed by BE, that you might get a horse at PSG coming jumping an 80 track

The thing is you just don't see such crazy differences at BD. The % difference between first and last would not be such a gap and also that's the end of it in Dr but in eventing its very impactful. I have suffered before gaining a 45 on a horse who was consistently 32-37 in his eventing dr scores and the test was no different to normal. The leading Dr score was a 23 so it was worthless me continuing that day if I wanted to be competitive unless running in pouring rain and a bog as about the only time you can gain. Its a lot of money to spend £100 to be judged unfairly vs £30 to do a dr test which you can write off.

I watched the dr test which got a 6 and it was not justified, it was a nice test but maybe 75-80% but not 95%. You never see scores of 94% at BD or they are like hens teeth. So why should you see them eventing?

 

[sportsmansB]

A very very well respected international ground jury judge here recently gave a really excellent score. Shes a fair judge who is known for using the full range of marks and writing encouraging and helpful comments, but certainly not judging erratically
I was the scorer, and she brought the sheet to me (it was just before a break) and she was actually shaking when she handed it over and asked me to count it up while she was there. She had never given out a mark like it and reckoned she would be unlikely to again, but said she marked every movement individually, and that the 10's really were justified.
It was a well known rider, but not at a big competition, and the next rider behind her was about 16 marks back as far as I remember.
I've been a scorer for about 7 years, every week through the season, and the next best I remember was a 12 and a fair few 15-18's.

 

[daffy44]

Maybe the higher judges are more confident in awarding higher marks and/or using the full range of marks.
I can see a basically OK extension that's rhythmic in a correct frame etc but without overtrack would be classed as "fairly good"
I have a sheet from an unaffiliated novice test - comment "fantastic centre lines" I got an 8 - "good" I honestly was pretty disappointed the judge had felt they were good enough to comment on but they weren't brave enough to give a higher mark. Id sooner a judge use the full 0 - 10 than give mediocre marks all round

I've definitely found that higher list judges are more confident to use a range of marks, by definition they are more experienced, and so they are happy to be braver when the situation requires it.

 

[daffy44]

I think Astrid was being a bit cheeky with that comment, she is fun to read, but as MP said, not totally unbiased. I dont have a problem with an extension being given a 7 when the biggest fault was a lack of ground cover, expression and overtrack, fairly good is about right. If you think about it its the same at Novice! If the extension, or the lengthening if at Novice, is ridden accurately, in good balance, showing a clear difference, showing smooth transitions at the start and finish of the movement, good in the frame, good in the contact, but lacking in bigger overtrack etc 7 is what you'd get. The 8s, 9s and 10s come with the bigger movement, more ground cover etc, personally I'd rather see a 7 for the modest, but correct extension that Carl showed, than the higher marks given to horses that fling their front legs into the country and blind judges into giving the higher marks, but are also lacking in overtrack.

 

[RachelFerd]

The thing is you just don't see such crazy differences at BD. The % difference between first and last would not be such a gap and also that's the end of it in Dr but in eventing its very impactful. I have suffered before gaining a 45 on a horse who was consistently 32-37 in his eventing dr scores and the test was no different to normal. The leading Dr score was a 23 so it was worthless me continuing that day if I wanted to be competitive unless running in pouring rain and a bog as about the only time you can gain. Its a lot of money to spend £100 to be judged unfairly vs £30 to do a dr test which you can write off.

I watched the dr test which got a 6 and it was not justified, it was a nice test but maybe 75-80% but not 95%. You never see scores of 94% at BD or they are like hens teeth. So why should you see them eventing?

I totally agree. You categorically do not see those scores at BD competitions. So if BD listed judges are giving out those scores eventing, but not at pure dressage shows, they are judging differently - which they shouldn't be doing. And at a dressage show, if the range of marks is wider than normal, it's not the end of the world. Out eventing, it has changed the fundamental nature of the competition.

It is one thing if judges are sitting within a range of marks which is consistently higher for all tests - so there's still an approx 20 mark difference between the best and the worst (normal distribution would be between 25 and 45 - so if they decided to mark between 15 and 35, that's fine) ... but if the judge decides to really go for it in using the *full range* of marks, and you start having much bigger differences, you change the nature of the event and effectively lower the importance of the jumping phases. So in *that* section at Norton Disney, marks ranged between 5.5 and 39.8 - so it was a nearly 35 mark difference. The horse who got a 5.5 went out next time and got a 24.8 - which is definitely far more aligned with what you'd expect from it's history. The horse that got a 10 has since gone out and done a 28 and a 31.

Horses are also bought and sold with their competition history - so there are financial implications around judging. If a young horse doing an event early in it's competition history went and pulled out a sub-20 score, it could artifically inflate value.